How can I bring the presence of God into my room or other "intimate" place?
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You are saying that what God does is wrong? his presence is him himself close to you, when you feel his glory you are feeling the same one that is in heaven with him.
Maybe you don't care about these expèriences because you don't know what they are, 'things nobody saw is what he prepared for us'
Yes i will seek that God touches me and the other things too like holiness, but one thing doesn't take the other and that God interacts with us is amazing and for sure i want more of that.
Why despise what God can do with things like these? these experiences can be life changing, for example i will follow Jesus for life since i am sure he is real 100% and he is amazing because experiencing things with him.
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Redwingfan9
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The notion that 80 praying Russians can somehow pray Jesus into action against an atheist is nothing short of superstition. John 3:8 explicitly teaches that we have no control over the Holy Ghost. He goes were Jesus wills, saving the elect. The Holy Ghost isn't a performance artist, causing people to act like fools, speak in gibberish etc.
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If you mean the weird stuff that happens in some 'churches' you are 'throwing the baby with the bath water' here and you could not be more wrong despising what God can do.
And yes the Holy spirit responds to prayer and people doing stuff in the name of Jesus, just read your bible if you think otherwise.
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You are talking about this testimony, right?
Why do you find Jesus appearing to someone strange? We have the example of Paul in his way to Damascus.
Also, what about Acts 4:31?
31 After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.
Yes, but we have evidence in Acts 4:31 that prayer still plays a role:
31 After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.
Sorry, in which video from the OP is someone acting like a fool? I'm not sure which video you are specifically talking about.
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aiki
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What does the Bible offer as a definition of fleshly thinking and living?
Temporal in its perspective.
Occupied with the impulses of the body.
Self-willed and centered.
Incorrigibly sinful.
(See Romans 8:5-8; James 3:14-16; Philippians 3:18-21; 2 Peter 2:10-19; Galatians 5:19-21)
What do I mean by "sensual"? Appealing to and exciting the physical senses and emotions.
I saw distinct elements of the flesh in each of the videos I watched. Not entirely. Not everything they said was overflowing with fleshliness. But this is the difficulty of spiritual deception: it is often mixed in with truth.
Do I want to go through, bit by bit, the videos I mentioned and detail each instance where fleshly thinking appears? I simply haven't the time. But it is not difficult, I think, to take the definitions and supporting passages I've offered and apply them critically and prayerfully to the videos you've posted. The Holy Spirit can illuminate the points of error and fleshliness far better than I, right?
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God is supernatural/spirit, so its normal for him to do spiritual/supernatural stuff and he does awesome things, i am not advocating you live your life by 'feelings' here, or seek 'emotions', its just some people seem allergic to the things God can do, these things are "normal" for a christian in their walk with God.
The bible talks we can be filled with the Holy sprit this can be felt.
We can get 'living waters in our interior' this can be felt.
The glory of God we can experience this/feel.
Also that there is 'heavenly gifts' we can get a lot of that.
God can show his love to us doing things that are 'natural' for him like making you feel his love/presence and anointing etc.
And you can be transformed by God and be free of spiritual problems.
This is not a by 'feelings' 'unstable gospel' its just normal stuff God can do, and its things that are the best in life, anything better the world can do.
The bible talks we can be filled with the Holy sprit this can be felt.
We can get 'living waters in our interior' this can be felt.
The glory of God we can experience this/feel.
Also that there is 'heavenly gifts' we can get a lot of that.
God can show his love to us doing things that are 'natural' for him like making you feel his love/presence and anointing etc.
And you can be transformed by God and be free of spiritual problems.
This is not a by 'feelings' 'unstable gospel' its just normal stuff God can do, and its things that are the best in life, anything better the world can do.
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aiki
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It's not the idea that God can do, and does, supernatural things that is at issue but what those supernatural things are and which of them are common and which are not.
Well, in light of all the Scripture I've already offered in earlier posts, are sensual and hyper-emotional "experiences" of God really of Him? The Scripture I've cited indicates not.
Oh? Where does Scripture teach this? And is the description of something in Scripture always prescriptive? Must the Holy Spirit be felt? Do any of the he writers of the NT tell us to pursue such feelings? If so, where?
Again, where is this taught in Scripture and where in the NT are we instructed to pursue these sensual experiences?
What gifts are you talking about, exactly? Where does Scripture say you can "get a lot of them"?
God can do anything He wants to do. Does He tell us in His word that He is concerned that we feel His love, or presence, or "anointing" (whatever that is)? If we don't feel these things, has He ceased to love us, or has He stopped being omnipresent?
Absolutely. But how does God in His word say He usually does His transforming work in us? Always through some sudden, spectacular change?
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Yes the Holy spirit, his presence can be felt.
Living waters is your interior getting filled well with spirit which satisfies your spiritual thirst, this can be felt.
The glory of God can be felt, totally.
God is spirit so he reaches to us spiritually.
Gods love can be felt, totally.
I'm pretty sure of all of this. Certain actually since i'm not talking because the air is free but because it happened to me.
speaking of 'sensual' you may mean 'sensory' well, seeking God is going to produce some of this experiences since, his stuff like i described and that is in the bible, a lot of it can be felt, so you seek God you are going to feel stuff but feeling is not the objective we should seek getting better and closer with God. The closer you are to God the more probably you are going to feel stuff, but its not wrong to be eager to experience things like this, after all, they are from God, and they are awesome, *insert indesctriptible adjective here*
Note that God touching you is not your feelings, the same as soomeone hugging you is not 'feelings' yes you feel it but you know what it is and how is feeling to you.
This is the same as a father or mother expressing themselves to their childs, who wouldn't want to God to express himself to us spiritually? since he is not of flesh and bones, he does it that way, Are christians out of their mind? that they don't want that?
I'm not saying you should seek sensory experiences, but if you seek living waters you are going to feel them if God gives to you.
And if you get filled with the Holy spirit you will feel him.
And etc. etc.
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aiki
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This doesn't answer my question. It merely repeats what you've already said. Where does the Bible teach us the Holy Spirit can be felt? And in what way is he commonly, normally, felt? What do you mean by "felt"? Crying? Tingles and warm oozies? Convulsions on the floor? If this is what you mean, where is any of this taught in Scripture as being of the Spirit? The only people in the New Testament who were having convulsive attacks were those who were demon possessed. Not once does the Holy Spirit deal violently with anyone - not even when he killed Ananias and his wife, Sapphira.
I don't know what this means. Jesus is the Living Water. He comes to live within us in the Person of the Holy Spirit. (Romans 8:9-11) But does His coming to live within me mean I must feel that He has? If I don't feel Him, is He then not there? Do my feelings dictate what God has or hasn't done? Or does God's word dictate such things?
Maybe. Where do you see this in Scripture? And does such a description in the Bible mean we all ought to feel God's glory? Does the mere description of something in Scripture mean it is prescriptive for us today? Is such thinking not the "Is-Ought" fallacy? Seems like it to me.
I suppose. That it can does not mean that it must be felt, though, does it? God's wrath can be felt, too. Should we all feel His wrath, then? Our feeling of God's love has nothing whatever to do with whether or not He loves us, right? We know He loves us because He has told us in His word He does, not because we feel that He does, yes? What tells us what is true spiritually?: God's word or our feelings?
Your experience is not authoritative, I'm afraid. I don't believe anything about God based on what you have or haven't experienced. Your experiences can be mistaken but God's word cannot. So, I should trust the Bible, then, right?
Where in the Bible? And does the experience of someone in Scripture make their experience necessarily mine, too? How does that follow, exactly? Should I expect to be like Samson whose enormous physical power came from the Spirit? Should I go and wash in a dirty river like Naaman did in order to be healed of a disease? Should I go out and kill pagans, like the ancient Israelites? Obviously not. Just because these things are described in Scripture doesn't mean I ought to follow suit. Description is not prescription.
What "stuff" should the believer expect to feel? Conviction? Yes. Illumination? Yes. Comfort? Yes. Strengthening? Yes. Gratefulness? Yes. A desire for holiness? Yes. These are all things God's word says are common experiences of the Christian as they walk with God. Nowhere, though, does the Bible teach me that I should look for or desire tingles, or electrical sensations, or high emotions, or convulsive experiences and such like in my walk with God.
Oh? Where is this taught in the Bible? Doesn't it say that sensuality is of the flesh and anathema to the things of the Spirit? (See: Galatians 5:17; James 3:15)
What "stuff" do you mean? You haven't really said.
Actually, I have serious doubts that any of what you're thinking of is of God at all. Give my first post in this thread a read.
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I'm still waiting for you to make the connection between the verses you cited and the videos you watched. I still don't see how those verses can apply to those testimonies.
Ephesians 5:18-20
18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another with psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit. Sing and make music from your heart to the Lord, 20 always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Galatians 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Also read the following:
- Do all believers receive the Holy Spirit at conversion but only a few are filled with the Holy Spirit post conversion?
- How is speaking in tongues an edifying practice for individuals themselves?
Please, define sensual.
John 7:37-39
37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
Acts 1:7-8
7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
No, but it would mean we are missing out.
Acts 9:1-9
Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples. He went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”
5 “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.
“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. 6 “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”
7 The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8 Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9 For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.
5 “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.
“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. 6 “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”
7 The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8 Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9 For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.
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I already gave you some examples of things that can be felt, the glory, the Holy spirit, his love, the living waters, etc, it never happened to me any of the 'weird' stuff you are trying to mix with me, i don't need to fall or feel tingling anything.
The living waters is spirit yes, i don't know but what i know is that is something that can be felt and can satisfy your spiritual thirst like i said. Its something specific christians can get.
The Holy spirit can make you feel his presence and lots of other things related to him, and is the best of best, the top of what you can experience in this life, since he is so loving and sensitive and special. But you probably are going to say is was not the Holy spirit don't you? how little we believe between ourselves christians in this days, so a 'lowly', run of the mill, normal, even sinner christian coudln't have possibly experienced this things from God? WHY? God says he gives to the despised what the 'great' can't have.
But about experiences, you know the people who wrote the bible wrote it after experiencing things? they are based on their experiences... so i don't know what you have against them. The bible are the experiences of the people of God. I assure you that God himself did not write the bible, he DID ("gave experiences") things to his prophets to let them write it because it was his will.
Like i said i experienced all those things i described, and they are in the bible too, it doesn't say much about feeling them but not everything is written either.
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aiki
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That's too bad. You'll be waiting a long time, I'm afraid, for what you want from me concerning your videos. I already explained why.
The Fruit of the Spirit is joy, yes, and he will guide our minds in prayer and worship but does this happen necessarily in some overt, exaggerated manner, ala Benny Hinn? Does this quotation offer a basis for such thinking? Can the leading of the Spirit be so subtle and profound we cannot see it?
I did. See my last post to you.
Don't see the word "anointing" in these passages. Do you?
Does what happened in Acts 2 mandate that all Christians must have the same experience? Where is this indicated in Acts 2? Or anywhere else in Scripture? Again, description is not necessarily prescription.
These passages also don't indicate that being filled with the Spirit is necessarily a sensual business, though the Spirit indwelling and filling does result in action - in Acts 2, specifically evangelism.
On what? God has not ceased to love us just because we feel that He has or have no feeling to verify that He does. God's love for you doesn't rest on your feelings, right?
And do you know how long it was before Paul was prepared by God to serve Him as an apostle? Paul was by no means instantly made spiritually mature and ready for service by his experience on the Road to Damascus. And why should we think what happened to Paul on the Damascus Road should serve as any kind of a pattern for our own experience of God? Once again, description is not necessarily prescription.
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You know in the bible someone asked some people if they received the Holy spirit? this meant being filled, and how in the earth you will know if you got filled if you don't 'sense' anything? UNDERSTAND PLEASE... you most probably if you are a bit sensitive feel the presence of the Holy spirit since he is filling you with his PERSON!!! Understand...
Also you are meanig to say 'sensory'? i mean sensual is something related to sex...
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the bible talks about the anointing, not much, but is an important thing.
7 But the anointing which ye have received from Him abideth in you, and ye have no need that any man teach you. But as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him.
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Well, if you keep refusing to provide evidence to justify your claim that those testimonies are sensual and of the flesh in nature, then you are just making baseless claims. And as they say: what is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
Why are you bringing up Benny Hinn? Have I mentioned or shared a video from Benny Hinn at any point in this thread?
You just provided verses talking about sin, you still haven't explained how those verses apply to the testimonies shared in the OP.
Isaiah 61:1-3
The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me, because the Lord has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners, 2 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn, 3 and provide for those who grieve in Zion— to bestow on them a crown of beauty instead of ashes, the oil of joy instead of mourning, and a garment of praise instead of a spirit of despair. They will be called oaks of righteousness, a planting of the Lord for the display of his splendor.
1 John 2:26-27:
26 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.
The exact same experience is not prescribed, but the book of Acts does make the point clear that those sorts of experiences are possible for Christians, both Jews and Gentiles. Please, read this question and the answers for more examples: Do all believers receive the Holy Spirit at conversion but only a few are filled with the Holy Spirit post conversion?
Two points:
1) You are once again using the word "sensual", for which you have only provided verses that talk about sin. So unless you clarify once again what you truly mean by "sensual", I will take it as if you mean "sinful". Thus, by making the replacement your sentence reads: "These passages also don't indicate that being filled with the Spirit is necessarily a sinful business", to which I reply: of course the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with sin, I never claimed such a thing (unless you meant something else with "sensual" - please clarify the term if so).
2) All examples of baptism in the Holy Spirit that you find in the book of Acts include a supernatural experience. Is there at least one example of baptism in the Holy Spirit in the whole Bible where the event was completely subconscious and the individual didn't consciously experience anything at all?
Right, but again, if you don't have a conscious experience of his love, you would be missing out on that conscious experience, that's all.
He certainly needed further maturing and training, but the encounter was definitely a huge step in that direction. And though I agree with you that such an experience is not prescriptive, it does serve as a proof of concept to show that God can manifest in powerful ways to people as he sees fit, and that there is no reason for trying to put God in a box and knee-jerkly dismiss every testimony out there just because we haven't been as fortunate to have experienced the same.
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aiki
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Is this actually what I said? I don't think so. As we've gone back and forth, you've narrowed down my comments to this one assertion, but I did say, at least twice now in my posts, that there is some truth mixed up with error in the videos. Not everything that is said in them is false or fleshly nor is everything said in them properly spiritual (that is, biblical) either. If you want to dismiss my remarks because I won't go through the very time-consuming effort of detailing in each video where the problems are, feel free. It didn't sound at the start of this thread that you were looking to get into a full-on debate, just for reactions to the videos. I gave you my reaction. Take it or leave it.
Did I say that you had brought up Benny Hinn?
I brought up Hinn in asking a question about the manner in which the Spirit acts upon us. He was representative of one extreme kind of experience some claim to have of the Spirit that I offered in contrast to a much more subtle way in which the Spirit works. I made no assertion that Hinn was representative of all those in the videos you offered. Paul Washer, for instance, is almost polar opposite in his basic doctrine and theology to Hinn.
I'd rather let the individual, under the prayerful guidance of the Holy Spirit, apply those Scriptures as they see fit.
Um, these are different passages here. I am aware that Scripture speaks of the indwelling Spirit as an anointing from God. The verses to which I was making my remarks about the word "anointing" did not contain the word at all. How does posting these verses address this observation of mine on other verses?
Yes.
It seems you didn't read the passages/verses carefully, nor post #46. In post #46, I defined very clearly what I mean by "sensual."
???
Where have I contended for a "completely subconscious" conversion experience (which is what the baptism of the Spirit is)? I wrote of a subtle and profound spiritual work that the Spirit does in us, but not one where the believer experiences nothing. So, why are you arguing as though I have?
When Phillip leads the ethiopian eunuch to faith in Christ, the ethiopian eunuch didn't speak in tongues, or convulse in spiritual ecstasy, or have a vision. He just "went away rejoicing." This, I think, is the much more common initial experience of those who are saved, who are baptized in the Spirit. It was the experience of the Philippian jailer and his family, too. They also were saved but simply rejoiced afterward, without any tongues-speaking, or flames of fire appearing over their heads, or anything else of an overt supernatural character.
But "missing out" sounds like there is some value to having this "conscious experience of His love" that elevates the life of one having such an experience over one who does not. But, as I pointed out, God loves us just as much whether we feel He does or not. And it is God's love, not what I do or don't feel that is really important. So, I don't think not feeling God's love is "missing out" at all - at least, as I said, not on what's truly important.
Over the course of nearly twenty years. Apparently, he needed quite a lot of maturing and training.
Of course He can. I've never suggested otherwise. But is this the common way God interacts with us? I don't think so. Nor is it an experience with God we are ever told in Scripture to pursue.
Who has "put God in a box"? I haven't. God can do all that He wishes to do. He's God.
Who has dismissed "knee-jerkly" every testimony out there? I haven't. There are many wonderful Christian testimonies I have heard and thoroughly endorse.
Who has made such dismissals on the basis that they haven't had the same sort of experiences? I haven't. My case against at least certain elements of the various testimonies I heard was scripturally-based, not experience-based. Do you know what experiences I've had with God?
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You don't need to be exhaustive. Just pick the most representative example among the 4 videos you watched, the one that raised the most amount of red flags for you, and just find one sentence or whatever that they said that made you feel uncomfortable and think 'yes, this is what I call "sensual" or "fleshy"'. For sure there had to be at least one sentence or something they said that triggered your skepticism. Just one example, nothing exhaustive, just to illustrate the point, it shouldn't take you more than a few minutes. I think it's a fair compromise.
Fair enough. But again, if you mentioned Benny Hinn as a representative of "one extreme kind of experience", then there is still some to work to be done on your side about explaining what exactly you mean by the quoted expression. The apostle Paul had an "extreme experience" in his way to Damascus. Does Benny Hinn represent the apostle Paul then? I would presume that you certainly don't think so. Is there any video from the OP's list you watched that brought you flashbacks of Benny Hinn's services or something? What aspects of the "Benny Hinn experience" (let's call it that way, whatever that means) make it a good reference to compare the videos against, but not so with the "Damascus Road experience" of the apostle Paul?
The original verses didn't mention the word anointing, but they did mention the Holy Spirit. And the new verses I shared with you show that the Holy Spirit is the one anointing the Christians. And we have plenty of evidence in Scripture that people can certainly have powerful, conscious experiences with the Holy Spirit (see for example all the cases of baptism in the Holy Spirit in the book of Acts). Now, if what you are looking for is specific verses saying explicitly that "the anointing can be felt, and it feels like this", at the moment I can't think of any verse providing such a level of specific information on the matter, although, as I we have previously discussed, there are verses supporting that the Holy Spirit can make people consciously experience love, peace, joy, "rivers of living water" quenching their spiritual thirst, we have also the expression "baptism in the Holy Spirit and fire", and I know lots of testimonies of people reporting "heat" or "warmth" which matches very well with the "fire" part, etc.
Btw, if you want a concrete example of someone having a supernatural experience of the anointing, like literally feeling like oil being poured out on their head and running down their body, you should definitely watch this testimony (just 1 min from the timestamp, no more). This lady was coming from the New Age and had no idea about the Holy Spirit or the anointing or anything like that. The whole experience was completely unexpected and unprecedented for her. For more interesting examples, see the examples I list here: Is there biblical support for "feeling the presence of God" as reported by multiple Christian conversion testimonies?
Oh right, I remember reading that post and checking out the passages, but it seems I overlooked this sentence:
What do I mean by "sensual"? Appealing to and exciting the physical senses and emotions.
But now you have another problem: how do you discern if an experience is physical or spiritual? When Peter had a vision of a net from Heaven presenting many animals to choose from and eat in Acts 10, he certainly had a visual experience, he saw something. Is that "sensual" for you? What about the Holy Spirit making people feel love, joy, peace. Is that "sensual" for you? What about having an intense experience of being baptized in the Holy Spirit and fire (take Acts 2 as an example). Is that "sensual" for you?
I think it would help to prevent further misunderstandings if you provide concrete examples of the experiences that you think believers can feel, ranging from the most subtle to the most intense.
I think you are conflating here conversion/salvation with being filled/baptized in the Holy Spirit, as if they were one and the same experience. Those cases are clear examples of conversion, no question about that, but how do you know they were baptized in the Holy Spirit also? I invite you to read this question for more information on this topic: Do all believers receive the Holy Spirit at conversion but only a few are filled with the Holy Spirit post conversion?
God's love upon you is unconditional and thus does not depend on the amount of experiences you have had, I agree 100% with you on this. Having said that, there is evidence in Scripture that believers can certainly benefit from experiencing more of God, or there is even an invitation to believers to seek more of God.
Luke 11:11-13
11 “Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
Ephesians 5:15-20
15 Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16 making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. 17 Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is. 18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another with psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit. Sing and make music from your heart to the Lord, 20 always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 12:27-31
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.
John 7:37-38
37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”
Jeremiah 33:3
3 ‘Call to me and I will answer you and tell you great and unsearchable things you do not know.’
There is also evidence that even the gift of tongues has a purpose for edifying the believer in their intimacy with God (a conscious experience). Check out this question and the answers, they are quite good: How is speaking in tongues an edifying practice for individuals themselves?
I agree, but as I previously explained, we are encouraged to seek more of God, and God can reply back in very surprising ways. Btw, I just remembered another example of experience promised for the last days, mentioned in Acts 2:
Acts 2:17
"'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.
This verse provides additional evidence that you can certainly expect conscious experiences from time to time from the Holy Spirit. Not necessarily the exact same experiences but some experience nonetheless.
The point is: we shouldn't be establishing unsubstantiated limits to God's creativity when it comes to the ways He may choose to manifest himself in the conscious experience of someone.
Fair enough.
Fair enough. Would you mind sharing some of those testimonies?
Fine. But I keep insisting that it would help tremendously if you point to at least one concrete element of a concrete testimony where you see that something is wrong. Again, no need to be exhaustive, just one example and that's it.
No, but feel free to share if you want.
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You know, the one video that jumps out to me as the most insidiously fleshly is Paul Washer's testimony where he makes his pursuit of God's presence the key to spiritual power and fruitfulness. Paul goes into the closet, Paul walks the wilderness for three days, behaving like a wild man, Paul went after God month after month until Paul finally got what he wanted. And now, Paul is bold, Paul knows God is real and present, etc., etc.
Everything in Paul's story is Paul-centered. Ostensibly, its about God moving into Paul's life in a powerful way, but really, it's Paul who is the central figure in what happened; Paul's effort, Paul's pursuit of God, Paul's resolve are the important features of his story, not God. The primary message, really, of his story seemed to me to be that Paul W wants God more than any of his audience and he's proved it by his closet and wilderness episodes. Yikes!
This is how the "old man," Self, operates, orienting the work of God such that Man gets the glory, that Man is the key to his own spiritual success. What do you suppose - at least in Paul's view - would have happened to Paul if he hadn't chased after God so strenuously? It seems pretty plain to me that, as far as Paul Washer is concerned, if a man wants real spiritual power and a keen sense of God's presence, it's up to him to strain and strive to get it. And if he doesn't, then he'll be spiritually flat, weak in prayer, and spiritually dull in the pulpit.
So, I ask myself: how did Paul Washer come to faith in Christ in the first place? The Bible says all who are lost are "dead in trespasses and sin" and bound under the power of the World, the flesh and the devil (Ephesians 2:1-3); the Bible says we all, before our conversion, were "enemies in our minds by wicked works" toward God (Colossians 1:21); the Bible says that the unregenerate mind is a "mind of the flesh," a "carnal mind that is at enmity with God" (Romans 8:7). Clearly, no one comes to God on their own; the lost can't initiate with God, bound as they are.
Paul Washer, then, only came to faith in Christ because God first moved toward him, convicting Paul of his sin (John 16:8), giving to him repentance that he might know the truth of the Gospel (2 Timothy 2:25), drawing him to Christ (John 6:44). Only after God had acted toward Paul was Paul able to move toward God. And all Paul had to do to be saved was to believe and receive. No holing up in a closet, no wandering the wilderness for days, no working to motivate God to act (Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5).
When I think on all of this, I recall Paul the apostle's question to the Galatians, "Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" (Galatians 3:3) This is what I heard in Paul W's story: A man being perfected, not by the Spirit, but by the flesh, by human effort, resolve, and intense emotion. Every saved person began with God by the work of the Spirit and, as Paul the apostle explained to the Galatians, they continue under the very same spiritual dynamic in their walk with God. God saves us and God changes us. We don't change ourselves for God; that's "being perfected by the flesh." But this is, essentially, what I heard Paul W describing: not a work of God in Paul W but a work of Paul W, twisting God's arm 'til he got from God what he wanted.
The Bible tells me, however, that the Spirit of God fills me only when I go low before him, when I die to myself (John 12:24-25). I am nowhere in the New Testament told to do anything like what Paul W. did, but, instead, to yield to God (Romans 6:13-22), submit to Him (James 4:7), surrender myself as a living sacrifice to Him (Romans 12:1), humble myself before God (1 Peter 5:6). And when I do, the Spirit fills me with himself, with his power and a clear sense of his presence (Romans 8:16).
I suppose Paul W may have been thinking, as he spoke, of the injunctions in Scripture to "draw near to God and He will draw near to you" (James 4:8) and "you shall seek me and find me when you seek for me with all your heart" (Jeremiah 29:13) But, in light of what I've explained above, whatever seeking of God we may do, it must always be enabled by the Spirit; God must be seeking us first. He won't force us to accept His salvation, of course - we aren't puppets - and so we must exert our free will toward God in faith in Christ. By this means, a person draws near to God, by faith seeking Him in the redemption of the cross, for there is no other way to God (John 14:6; Acts 4:12). And when we do, God draws near in saving regeneration of us by His Spirit. But this is hardly the story Paul W described of his striving to connect with God.
No believer, then, has to closet himself or wander the wild in order to have a deep, abiding experience of the God who dwells within him by His Spirit. The saved person has already drawn near to God in his conversion and now he is a temple of the living God (1 Corinthians 6:19-20) who can be no more present in the believer than He already is.
Again, Scripture enjoins me, not to do as Paul W did, exerting himself mightily in order to provoke God to come to him, but to get low, to decrease that God might increase, to die to Self, to its self-glorifying efforts, and to live by faith in the truth of my co-crucifixion with Christ (Romans 6:11; Galatians 2:20; Colossians 3:3, etc.). This is God's way to being filled by the Spirit, a very different, God-centered, way than that described and urged by Paul Washer.
I hope you can see, in just discussing this one video, how much I've had to write in explanation of the problem I can observe in it. Imagine how much more I would have to write to address all of the videos I watched!
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