280 Weeks are Determined

Douggg said:

You are not the house of Israel. And you are not a Jew. In Luke 21:24, following the destruction of the temple and city, the Jews were led away captives into the nations. In Matthew 24:31, all of the Jews and the house of Israel will be gathered back to the land of Israel, from the nations.

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What you said in your last sentence cannot possibly be true.

Look at the parallel passage to Matthew 24:29-31 in Mark 13:24-27.

Mark 13:24 But in those days, following that distress, “‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

Notice that the elect will be gathered "from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens". That does not fit your interpretation whatsoever.

That is clearly referring to the same gathering of believers as this:

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

The ones who are gathered from heaven are those who "God will bring with Jesus" which are "those who have fallen asleep in Him" which are "the dead in Christ". He will bring their souls with Him from heaven. The ones who are gathered from earth are those "who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord".

Spiritual Jew said:

from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

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"from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens" is an idiom for saying from all around the world, i.e. from where the heavens and earth meet on the horizon.

It is not referring to the rapture, because the rapture cannot be pinpointed time wise.

Matthew 24:32-51 gives the season when the rapture will take place by the parable of the fig tree, but goes to lengths to say no-one knows the hour (an idiom for knowing exactly when) when Jesus comes for the rapture.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Christian Gedge said:

For example, Revelation 12 describes a woman giving birth to a son and having to flee to a safe place for 1260 days. In its simple fulfillment it refers to Mary and the 1260 refers to their flight to Egypt, a period of two to three years. (Rev. 12:4-6, Matt. 2:13-21)

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The 1260 days in Revelation 12:6 is after Jesus was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

1260 days + the war in the second heaven time + the time/times/half time = 2520 days, i.e. the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9.

Douggg said:

"from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens" is an idiom for saying from all around the world, i.e. from where the heavens and earth meet on the horizon.

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No. Nice try. Only the part that says "from the ends of the earth" refers to gathering the elect from all around the world. It clearly differentiates between the ends of the earth and the ends of the heavens. Paul clearly taught that Christ will be gathering the souls from heaven and bringing them with Him (1 Thess 4:14) and He will be gathering those who are alive and remain from the earth. There is no basis whatsoever to think that 1 Thess 4:13-17 and Matthew 24:29-31 (Mark 13:24-27, Luke 21:25-28) are different events.

It is not referring to the rapture, because the rapture cannot be pinpointed time wise.

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His second coming after the tribulation can't be pinpointed timewise because Christ said so in Matthew 24:36, 42, 44 and 50 as well as Matthew 25:13. Paul also indicated that in 1 Thess 5:1-2.

Matthew 24:32-51 gives the season when the rapture will take place by the parable of the fig tree, but goes to lengths to say no-one when Jesus comes for the rapture.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

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How are you concluding that the coming of the Son of Man mentioned in verse 31 is different than the coming of the Son of Man mentioned in verse 36 and the rest of the chapter? That does not make any sense whatsoever. He's only coming back once and it will be "after the tribulation of those days" and no one knows the day or hour that it will happen.

Spiritual Jew said:

No. Nice try. Only the part that says "from the ends of the earth" refers to gathering the elect from all around the world. It clearly differentiates between the ends of the earth and the ends of the heavens.

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Go outside tonight, and if it is clear, see where the night skies and the stars end. Look east, then west, then north, then south - from the direction of the four winds.

Spiritual Jew said:

How are you concluding that the coming of the Son of Man mentioned in verse 31 is different than the coming of the Son of Man mentioned in verse 36 and the rest of the chapter?

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In Matthew 24:30, the coming of the Son of Man in the clouds of heaven with power and glory is preceded by the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. Matthew 24:15-31 is a message to Jews (Judaism), and especially them living in Judea, who will end up going through the great tribulation.

Differently, in Mattthew 24:32-51 a message to Christians, as Jews (Judaism) don't consider Jesus their Lord.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Spiritual Jew said:

He's only coming back once and it will be "after the tribulation of those days" and no one knows the day or hour that it will happen.

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It will not be a mystery that Jesus is coming at that time, because the kings of the earth assemble their armies to make war on Jesus - when they are faced with the sign of the Son of Man in heaven.

Which will be when the cosmos parts and the world sees Jesus in the third heaven, before the throne of God, sickle in hand, prepared to execute judgement on behalf of them martyred during the great tribulation. (illustrated on my chart below, in the lower left corner.)

Douggg said:

In Matthew 24:30, the coming of the Son of Man in the clouds of heaven with power and glory is preceded by the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. Matthew 24:15-31 is a message to Jews (Judaism) who will end up going through the great tribulation.

Differently, in Mattthew 24:32-51 a message to Christians, as Jews (Judaism) don't consider Jesus their Lord.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

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Nothing you're saying here even begins to make any sense. He is coming once and there is no basis whatsoever to see the coming of the Son of Man in Matthew 24:32-51 to be a different coming of the Son of Man from Matthew 24:31.

Spiritual Jew said:

Nothing you're saying here even begins to make any sense. He is coming once and there is no basis whatsoever to see the coming of the Son of Man in Matthew 24:32-51 to be a different coming of the Son of Man from Matthew 24:31.

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Jesus is returning to this earth once to stand on the Mt. of Olives, and carry out judgement on the armies that have gathered to make war on him, and to have the beast and false prophet cast into the lake of fire, and Satan bound and cast in to the bottomless pit. It is on my illustration below.

That event is considered His Second Coming.

Which after that event is over, then the gathering of all the house of Israel from the nations will take place. Which is Matthew 24:31 and Ezekiel 39:28.

Douggg said:

Jesus is returning to this earth once to stand on the Mt. of Olives, and carry out judgement on the armies that have gathered to make war on him, and to have the beast and false prophet cast into the lake of fire, and Satan bound and cast in to the bottomless pit. It is on my illustration below.

That event is considered His Second Coming.

Which after that event is over, then the gathering of all the house of Israel from the nations will take place. Which is Matthew 24:31 and Ezekiel 39:28.



View attachment 288655

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All of the references to the coming of the Son of Man in Matthew 24 and 25 refer to His Second Coming. He is only coming down from heaven once. The question He was asked was "what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?", not "what will be the signs of your 2 comings and of the end of the age?".

Spiritual Jew said:

. He is only coming down from heaven once.

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...to stand on the Mt. of Olives and split it in half.

The disciples asked Jesus a question framed with the limited understanding they had.

Douggg said:

...to stand on the Mt. of Olives and split it in half.

The disciples asked Jesus a question framed with the limited understanding they had.

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See the greatest earthquake in history in Revelation chapter 16.


Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
The Seventh Bowl
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.



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BABerean2 said:

See the greatest earthquake in history in Revelation chapter 16.


Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
The Seventh Bowl
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.



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On my chart, lower right bottom.



And on my other chart down at the bottom lower right, the 7th vial spitting the world into three parts. You can click on the charts to zoom in.

Douggg said:

...to stand on the Mt. of Olives and split it in half.

The disciples asked Jesus a question framed with the limited understanding they had.

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Regardless of what the disciples understood at the time, what matters is what Jesus understood, which is everything. The bottom line is that there is no basis whatsoever to try to say that the coming of the Son of Man that Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24:31 is a different coming of the Son of Man that He mentioned in Matthew 24:36 and the other references to the coming of the Son of Man in Matthew 24 and 25. And Jesus made it very clear that the coming of the Son of Man would occur "after the tribulation of those days".

Spiritual Jew said:

The bottom line is that there is no basis whatsoever to try to say that the coming of the Son of Man that Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24:31 is a different coming of the Son of Man that He mentioned in Matthew 24:36

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In Matthew 24:32-51 the Son of Man is referred to as "your Lord" in the text. The Jews (Judaism) do not consider Jesus their Lord. They also don't consider the parable of the fig tree.

Matthew 24:32-51 is a message to Christians on how to avoid going through the great tribulation.

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

It is the same message as in Matthew 24:32-51.

Douggg said:

In Matthew 24:32-51 the Son of Man is referred to as "your Lord" in the text. The Jews (Judaism) do not consider Jesus their Lord. They also don't consider the parable of the fig tree.

Matthew 24:32-51 is a message to Christians on how to avoid going through the great tribulation.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

It is the same message as in Matthew 24:32-51.

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This is an incredibly weak attempt to try to make the coming of the Son of Man in verse 31 a different coming of the Son of Man in verses 32-51. The coming of the Son of Man in verse 31 is for the elect. Who else are the elect but Christians which are comprised of both Jew and Gentile believers?

The Olivet Discourse clearly does not support the pre-trib rapture theory whatsoever and you just don't want to accept it, so this is what you've come up with to try to make it fit your view. It's the most unconvincing argument I've ever seen.

Spiritual Jew said:

This is an incredibly weak attempt to try to make the coming of the Son of Man in verse 31 a different coming of the Son of Man in verses 32-51. The coming of the Son of Man in verse 31 is for the elect. Who else are the elect but Christians which are comprised of both Jew and Gentile believers?

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Matthew 24:31 is after Jesus has returned to this earth, right?

Now go to Ezekiel 39:17-20, that is the Armageddon feast, corresponding to Revelation 19:17-18.

Now continue reading in Ezekiel 39:21-22. That is Jesus Himself speaking in the text having returned to this earth. For the remainder of Ezekiel 39, he recounts of why the house of Israel was led into the nations. But ends up with them back in good standing with him, and that he has gathered all of them out of the nations and back into the land of Israel - none left in the nations, in Ezekiel 39:28.

That is the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31.

Spiritual Jew said:

The Olivet Discourse clearly does not support the pre-trib rapture theory whatsoever and you just don't want to accept it, so this is what you've come up with to try to make it fit your view. It's the most unconvincing argument I've ever seen.

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Here is my chart of the olivet discourse.


Here is my view of the rapture timing.



compared to the pre-trib rapture timing view.

Spiritual Jew said:

Is the following referring to a literal one hour (60 minute) time frame?

Revelation 17:12 “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.

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I would say yes. The battle of Armageddon would last for one hour, and that is the final breath of the beast.