Can genuine Christians be liars and racists?

grasping the after wind said:

I choose to follow the detailed and unambiguous instructions Jesus gave about how to approach what one sees as waywardness within a member of the congregation. How can doing things the way Jesus said to do them be harmful. I don't see your preferred method i.e leave, say nothing and report to others, not at all involved, about your dissatisfaction is an attempt to heal. One cannot heal if one 's injury is not attended to. I don't see how it is helpful for healing to point out the faults one sees in others to third parties but make no effort to address that with the person whose faults one is relating to those third parties.

Click to expand...

You seem to be quick to jump to conclusions.

Thanks for the feedback, since you're not really into sympathy, no need to share a sob story.

God bless.

Phoebe Ann said:

?

Click to expand...

Hello Phoebe. Can genuine Christians be liars and racists? Some people may point to the idea of Jacob in the book of Genesis having deceived his father etc. God Bless

Michael Collum said:

You seem to be quick to jump to conclusions.

Thanks for the feedback, since you're not really into sympathy, no need to share a sob story.

God bless.

Click to expand...

What conclusions have I jumped to? I do very much sympathize with those that do not know that they have offended and who are ignorant of what those offended think and say about them behind their back.

grasping the after wind said:

What conclusions have I jumped to? I do very much sympathize with those that do not know that they have offended and who are ignorant of what those offended think and say about them behind their back.

Click to expand...

However, since you have decided that I am a bad person, open communication would indeed be like grasping after the wind.

Anything I say will be misunderstood, because you have decided to misunderstand me.

Michael Collum said:

However, since you have decided that I am a bad person, open communication would indeed be like grasping after the wind.

Anything I say will be misunderstood, because you have decided to misunderstand me.

Click to expand...

Where did you get the idea I have decided you were a bad person. I don't think that at all. I believe you are sanctified and washed clean by the blood of Christ . I just think you are not following the instructions given by Jesus for the situation you described. I am trying to follow those instructions by telling you to your figurative face what I think is the mark you are missing in not following those instructions. Do you think the Pastor and congregation that you find fall short of the mark are bad people?

grasping the after wind said:

Where did you get the idea I have decided you were a bad person. I don't think that at all. I believe you are sanctified and washed clean by the blood of Christ . I just think you are not following the instructions given by Jesus for the situation you described. I am trying to follow those instructions by telling you to your figurative face what I think is the mark you are missing in not following those instructions. Do you think the Pastor and congregation that you find fall short of the mark are bad people?

Click to expand...

I've actually forgotten what we were talking about.

My mind needed to do a reset, too much spiritual warfare going on right now.

I still have some of this tendency to open up to strangers as part of a DIY therapy to accelerate healing.

Apologies for being too familiar, I didn't mean to give you the impression that we had the context that you could tell me how to interpret scripture - or how to live my life.

Confused-by-christianity said:

HAHAHA ;-)

Click to expand...

I scrolled through 6 pages of this thread to see if anyone was going to comment on this, LOL!

follow

Be kind to one another. God help us. I certainly don't think I'm better that anyone here, but perhaps I shouldn't have started this thread.

Click to expand...

I keep running across threads which end up with the original poster expressing regret for having even brought up the question. It is a sorrow to me that our brothers and sister seeking support, advice, and discussion are so put off by the responses of their brethren that they wish to have not even tried. Thank you, Phoebe Ann, for reaching out and seeking wisdom from the body of Christ, even though it is difficult.

One thing I think would help this and many other discussions would be the working out of definitions in an intentional way. This is something that frequently happens in a haphazard manner in the course of a thread but would be better done clearly.
For instance, a common (perhaps historic) definition of racism might be the supposition of a qualitative difference between ethnicities. A more modern take could see racism in a systemic way, as something that disadvantages darker minorities in a dominant white culture, regardless of the personal opinions of individuals in that society. I personally find this redefinition of the basic term "racism" problematic based on how much confusion it engenders but understand the reasoning behind it and am happy to work within this context.

The more we seek to understand one another clearly and without undue supposition, the better we can connect as one fellowship.

Phoebe Ann said:

Philippians 4:8-9
8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. 9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

John 14
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 15
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

?

Click to expand...

It's time we prayed for persecuted Christians instead of looking for fault in Christians:

Over 50 beheaded by ISIS-aligned extremists in Mozambique raid

Dozens beheaded by ISIS-linked militants in Mozambique

18 killed, church burned by suspected Islamic extremists in Congo overnight attack
Islam is expansionist, but unlike the Christian expansionist peaceful gospel message, Islam uses torture, beheading, subjugation etc.

Not a good idea to allow millions into countries with a formerly Christian heritage, it's as simple as that. The only reason there aren't more beheadings etc in Europe is because the governments are spending millions on intelligence to keep it under control. There is racism inherent in certain religious beliefs and in certain ideologies, and it's not racist to be aware of that.

The things I'm talking about here is not scare-mongering, and there's nothing racist in not being stupid. Love is not equal to stupidity. Charity should begin at home.

Love your neighbor as yourself and do unto others as you would have them to unto you, without being stupid enough to support government policies on immigration which in the long term will harm your neighbors.

Lying: Better to develop the habit of telling the truth. Sometimes telling a lie is done in wisdom. I think that doctors sometimes lie to their patients not to cause more stress that can exacerbate an already serious problem.

The things I'm talking about here is not scare-mongering, and there's nothing racist in not being stupid. Love is not equal to stupidity. Charity should begin at home.

Click to expand...

Any of these statements could be taken from the mouth of a naysaying friend bystanding the good Samaritan. We will often face contradiction when we seek God's good news and justice.

Phoebe Ann said:

Some pastors drive people away. Do you think "Confess your faults to one another" implores people to stand before the congregation and tell them of every sin you've ever committed? The congregation is not five hundred or so people who will not judge. The congregation may never forgive you --- churches lose members that way and the ones who don't leave may think they are more righteous than the person who confessed. Some of them may gossip about you.

Be kind to one another. God help us. I certainly don't think I'm better that anyone here, but perhaps I shouldn't have started this thread.

Click to expand...

You seem to be confused about the subject of the conversation we were having. It has had nothing to do with confessing one's faults. It was about whether one should abandon a congregation without mentioning one's misgivings to the people one has misgivings about. I was taking the position that Jesus gave us a clear path to follow in such situations.

Kettriken said:

Any of these statements could be taken from the mouth of a naysaying friend bystanding the good Samaritan. We will often face contradiction when we seek God's good news and justice.

Click to expand...

I was thinking in terms of the fact that for example being in opposition to mass uncontrolled immigration does not of necessity have a racist motive. It depends on what you define as racism and I don't know what you would define as racism because racism is a word with a million interpretations.

You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy."
But I say to you, Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who despitefully use you and persecute you, Matthew 5:43-44

Therefore if your enemy hungers, feed him. If he thirsts, give him drink. For in so doing you shall heap coals of fire on his head.
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. Romans 12:20-21

The above implies that we do have enemies, and as Christians it's not because we wanted them to be our enemies, but because they regard us as their enemies.

If an enemy comes to you begging for food or water you should respond with mercy, but letting large numbers of our enemy into our homes, or districts or countries to wreak havoc, making it unsafe for our own children (and especially our daughters) to walk in some areas because of the high rape and stabbing incidents, getting bullied by gangs of immigrant children on their way to or from school because they are considered 'spiritually unclean' by the communities the gangs come out of - well if we oppose that idea, it does not mean we lack love, or that we are racist, imo. It just means we do not lack wisdom.

If our enemy has been injured, of course no Christian is going to walk by and leave him to die. It has nothing to do with the good Samaritan parable, imo. The injured person in that parable was not even an enemy - he was someone who was considered "spiritually unclean" by the religious people who walked by, so they left him to die. The Samaritans in Jesus' day were all considered "spiritually unclean" by the Jews of that period - so Jesus was telling them that the very person who some regard as "spiritually unclean" - he is their neighbor, whom they should love as themselves.

Phoebe Ann said:

Does this mean that a Christian can live any way he wants to and still be saved? This is essentially a hypothetical question, because the Bible makes it clear that a true Christian will not live “any way he wants to.”

Click to expand...

Let me just clarify what I meant. A true Christian is someone who wants to follow Jesus. "My sheep here my voice and I know them and they follow me. And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." John 6:27-28. The reason I said a true Christian can do whatever he wants is because what he will want to do are things that please his Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. We can do whatever we want because what we want to do is to "love one another, do good to them that hate us and pray for them which despitefully use us and persecute us, to preach the gospel in all the world to every creature, to forgive men their trespasses even as our Father which is in Heaven forgives us, to preach the word, be instant, in season ,out of season, reprove, rebuke exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine, endure hardness as a good soldier of Jesus Christ, put on the whole armor of God that we may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil." etc. etc. and all the rest of the things that Jesus and the apostles teach us to do in the Word. These are the things we will want to do. They are not things that we are forced to do against our will.

Well, I am busy today and did not take the time to read this long thread. Let me just remind all of us of something. It is hard to claim that the slaveholders in the American South in the 1600's-1865 were not racists, along with their supporters, as well as all of the dear clergy who spoke out in favor of forced slavery. (I suppose that we can give a partial pass to those clergy who were personally against slavery, but failed to raise their voices in opposition, for fear of retaliation.) Since such a summation would seem to count most of the white population in the American South, at least from say 1750 to 1865, what are we to make of this mess? Is it possible that most of the white Christians in the American South during slavery were not true Christians?

Basil the Great said:

Is it possible that most of the white Christians in the American South during slavery were not true Christians?

Click to expand...

So, I guess, that means that somebody can be a true Christian and a racist at the same time. On the other hand, it's doubtful if any of the slave traders who went to Africa to round up the blacks and transport them across the ocean to sell them to plantation owners were true christians. A true christian wouldn't have done such a thing for the money. Many of the plantation owners were true christians. But, contrary to what many might think, being a slave owner back in those days, did not make somebody a racist. It was an economic thing, a way of making money and turning a profit on their farms, It wasn't a racist thing.