Penal Substitution ... is it biblical?

Saint Steven · Nov 12, 2020

Jamdoc said:
Would people want to be redeemed if there wasn't one or would they be content to live in sin?

You are accusing God of extortion.
What good is a confession when the signer has a gun to their head? Is it truthful?
Is that what God has to do to get us to love him?
We seem to have our loving heavenly Father confused with a gangster godfather.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Hold that thought.

How could a forever burning hell be for our redemptive good?

Gregory Thompson · Nov 12, 2020

Saint Steven said:
What does it mean to experience the reality of the trinity in our every day lives?

Jesus prayed in John 17 of those who would believe, Father may they be one as we are, you in me and me in you.

The same type of oneness that the trinity experiences, we experience as regenerated humans.

Confused-by-christianity · Nov 12, 2020

eleos1954 said:
The penal substitution theory teaches that Jesus suffered the penalty for mankind's sins. Penal substitution derives from the idea that divine forgiveness must satisfy divine justice, that is, that God is not willing or able to simply forgive sin without first requiring a satisfaction for it.

Questions ... and pose some questions of your own as well.

It is said .... the wrath of God was poured out on Jesus who committed no sin ... who was completely innocent .... is that justice?

Was salvation made possible through justice or through Love?

As always please provide scripture.

I don't understand all this stuff to be honest.

I never understood Jesus's sacrifice from the traditional sense. Mainly - I think - because I never understood God "needing" a sacrifice for our sins.

Why does God need a sacrifice? The animal pays the price for our bad thing? How does that change anything for God?

I guess the best I could understand it was that We needed the sacrifice, not God. We, knowing how bad we were, couldn't just accept God's love and mercy. So, He gave us the ritual of sacrifice to help us get over ourselves and come to Him???
???? Confused indeed haha

Randy777 · Nov 12, 2020

eleos1954 said:
The penal substitution theory teaches that Jesus suffered the penalty for mankind's sins. Penal substitution derives from the idea that divine forgiveness must satisfy divine justice, that is, that God is not willing or able to simply forgive sin without first requiring a satisfaction for it.

Questions ... and pose some questions of your own as well.

It is said .... the wrath of God was poured out on Jesus who committed no sin ... who was completely innocent .... is that justice?

Was salvation made possible through justice or through Love?

As always please provide scripture.

You might focus on Isaiah 53. Also note we were purchased by Jesus's "blood" for God.
We were baptized into His death. He paid the curse of the law or it was fulfilled in Him "death".

You must keep in mind God didn't put Jesus on the cross. The wicked did. God allowed it and gained victory over death for the many by it. God brought "good" out of their evil intent.

Jesus willing summited to the Fathers will. He stated He could ask the Father for 12 legions of angels which the Father would put at His disposal. He could have protected Himself but He didn't allow His will to supersede the Fathers will.

All the Father and Jesus did was out of Love. The love Jesus had for the Father and the love the Father had for the world.

Randy777 · Nov 12, 2020

You must always start with this attitude in regard to why questions in regard to Gods actions.
No one loves more than the Father. No fault can be found in Him. So why would you look or consider?
Job was left speechless when questioned by the living God.
Your existence, and the world in all its fullness was created by God. God has shown in His promises given that His faithfulness endures through all generations. A loving and compassionate God. A just God.
If you have seen the Son you have seen the Father. You should know Him if you know Jesus.
Always put your trust in Him despite your own understanding and you will never be disappointed.

childeye 2 · Nov 12, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
The penalty for mankind's sin was being poured out upon mankind in the body of a man called Jesus: He Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that dying to sins, we might live to righteousness; by whose stripes you were healed. 1 Pet 2:24

Let me say right off the top, that I liked your post, and that I have no problem with believing that Jesus died in our place as a willing substitute, receiving in himself the death that was the inevitable course or consequence for all those born in Adam after eating of the knowledge of good and evil (there were a few exceptions). For it is through this knowledge of good and evil that I believe sin entered in, and the wages of sin is death.

Please note that to me when I hear that sin 'entered in', that it necessarily means that sin was once outside and had not entered in. I tend to study semantics and this view of sin as something that can enter in, is a nuance of the term 'sin' that is not usually factored in when we say he sinned or we sinned. For it seems to me that sin is too often viewed only as an action against God, rather than a condition of being corrupted.

Having said that, I really do have a problem with the two phrases above. The problem is that there are semantics that occur creating differing lines of reasoning depending on how the meanings of the words are perceived.

Let's take for example the line, "He Himself bore our sins in His body on the tree". I really do think it means that Jesus suffered the sinful cruelty and wickedness in mankind on the cross. I therefore don't believe it means God poured His wrath out on Jesus, and that it's meant to be understood as the punishment for our sins. Likewise the phrase 'penal substitution' needs to be qualified as whether it's referring to a substitute death, or a substitute torture and crucifixion.

Please note what Peter says here from Acts 2:
23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.” 37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

The words in the scriptures above denote that the crucifixion of Christ could not be the wrath of God being poured out on Jesus in our stead, because the people are being convicted by the Holy Spirit that they are the one's that have done this.

To be clear, the purpose of Roman crucifixion is to make a spectacle of the victim so as to make a lasting impression upon all who view it, that this is what will happen to you if you ever disobey. It enforces a reasoning that the power that causes people to be obedient, or in this instance not to sin, is the fear of punishment and pain. It therefore does not inspire faith in the reliability of Love/empathy to cause people to be good to one another, which is God's Spirit.

Zao is life · Nov 12, 2020

childeye 2 said:
When God said you will surely die if you eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, I don't see it as a penalty for disobedience, but rather a consequence of having the knowledge (I think sin entered in through this knowledge). To me God was warning us of the affect the knowledge would have on us which would ultimately end in death. It was the serpent in the garden that presented it as otherwise.

I've had the same thoughts regarding death as being a consequence of sin, rather than a punishment. But Paul taught that the wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23). Is this another way of saying the (bad) fruit of sin is death? (the word "wages" has payment connotations).

But there's more: in order to believe the word of the serpent, Adam and Eve had to disbelieve the word of God (in effect calling God a liar). That in itself is sin. So the sinful idea/thought was planted as a seed by the serpent through what he said, and Adam and Eve's response to the lie was sinful, before they even ate and gained the knowledge, and the wages of sin is death. Could death be both the consequence (bad fruit) of sin as well as the punishment?

Jamdoc · Nov 12, 2020

Saint Steven said:
You are accusing God of extortion.
What good is a confession when the signer has a gun to their head? Is it truthful?
Is that what God has to do to get us to love him?
We seem to have our loving heavenly Father confused with a gangster godfather.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Hold that thought.

How could a forever burning hell be for our redemptive good?

It is ultimately what Jesus taught. To believe on Him and be forgiven of sin and repent of sin to not go to eternal torment.

childeye 2 · Nov 12, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
I've had the same thoughts regarding death as being a consequence of sin, rather than a punishment. But Paul taught that the wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23). Is this another way of saying the (bad) fruit of sin is death? (the word "wages" has payment/punishment connotations).

The term fruit is also used in positive and negative denotations identifying a good tree and a bad tree by the fruit. In this sense the bad tree would have a predisposition to do what is bad, just as the good tree would have a predisposition to do what is good. I believe the reason is because the two trees, or rather persons, each have one of two opposing images of god/God which they reason upon.

But there's more: in order to believe the word of the serpent, Adam and Eve had to disbelieve the word of God (in effect calling God a liar). That in itself is sin. So the sinful idea/thought was planted as a seed by the serpent through what he said, and Adam and Eve's response to the lie was sinful, before they even ate and gained the knowledge.

An excellent analysis if I may say. I've noticed the same thing. There are places in scripture that suggest that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the serpent and the devil are all one and the same. The fruit would be his words which are eaten when they are pondered/chewed and swallowed/believed. I see sin as any course or direction in separation from God. There are sinful thoughts that words can bring to our minds from external sources, which contest the the Word of God, as shown here: Corinthians 10:5, Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;...

Could the tree of of life be Christ? Is the tree of good and evil adorned with gems while the tree of life is plain looking? Does the tree of good/evil promote an ideal to chart one's own course and view subservience as wrong? I think about these things. I think Eve was manipulated by creating a desire within her to want to be like God in stature, when they already were created like God in their innocence to begin with.

Casting down imaginings: The serpent introduced an image of god that was depriving mankind from a knowledge that would make them his equal, by lying to them about dying if they partook of it. This false image of god is like a self seeking untrustworthy overlord, gaining glory through a deceptive means, which when reasoned upon would tend to justify disobedience. I believe the devil is projecting his own character. The Christ on the other hand is an image that is a self sacrificing servant to all, the exact opposite of a tyrant. Wherefore I have said that I believe there are two opposing images of God in two good/bad trees and their predispositions are seen by their fruit according to which image of God/god they hold to be true.

childeye 2 · Nov 12, 2020

Jamdoc said:
It is ultimately what Jesus taught. To believe on Him and be forgiven of sin and repent of sin to not go to eternal torment.

What if the course of unforgiveness and impenitence is an eternal torment?

eleos1954 · Nov 12, 2020

Jamdoc said:
It's kinda the entire point of the new testament..
and was even foretold in the old testament.
Isaiah 53 is quite literally talking about how the Messiah would be a Penal substitution.

I honestly can't see how people who follow Judaism, cannot read Isaiah 53, and be told about Jesus
and not say "wow, Yeshua really was the Messiah"

Some Jews don't believe Jesus was the Messiah because they thought the Messiah would fulfill the promises of restoring the Kingdom in His first coming, they didn't see the second coming, but if they opened their eyes to the prophecies they'd see that the Messiah MUST die and be resurrected. It stares them in the face

It is so clear, that not only would the Messiah be killed, but WHY He would be killed, hundreds of years before Jesus was born those who studied the scriptures should have seen it.

and then the resurrection.

You can clearly see it again.. penal substitution, and, "prolong his days" is... the resurrection. Our theology is very literally based on God being satisfied with the atonement of Jesus so God resurrected Him. Without the resurrection, we'd have no basis of faith to declare that this was THE Christ foretold, because the reason why Jesus is THE Christ is because He has fulfilled Isaiah 53 in his death, burial, and resurrection.
it's as Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 15

Isaiah 53 though... possibly the most beautiful chapter of the Old Testament.

Yes, Jesus died in our place and did so by Him willingly laying His life down .... what I am bringing up for discussion is the wrath part only .... His death wasn't due to Gods wrath (ie appeasing an angry god) rather life for life of which He did so willingly and yes God was pleased that He did this (willingly gave Himself) not to appease anger.

Some make the statement Gods wrath was poured out on Him .... because He willingly laid His life down there was no wrath involved. He laid His life down out of love .... not to appease an angry God.

I'm addressing the poured out His wrath statement only, nothing else. Everything else stays in tact.

eleos1954 · Nov 12, 2020

SANTOSO said:
Are you concerned about Jesus who committed no sin who is judged wrongly by God the Father?

No. The God the Father has not judged wrongly. That is why it is written:

For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, -John 5:22

Why God the Father has committed all judgement to the Son ?
This is what we have heard:

"I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of Him who sent me. -John 5:30

You are asking: Was salvation made possible through justice or through Love?

This is what we have heard:
Faithfulness springs up from the ground, and righteousness looks down from the sky. -Psalms 85:11

Our justice or our righteousness is from the sky where we meet our Lord Jesus Christ.

For we have died with Christ through baptism, and our new life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is our salvation appear, we who belong to Him will also appear with Him in glory. ( Colossians 3:3-4 )

We who have made ourselves ready for the marriage feast of the Lamb will rejoice when our Heavenly Bridegroom comes.

For we have heard:
Your steadfast love, O LORD, extends to the heavens, your faithfulness to the clouds. -Psalms 36:5

Yes, we trust in our Lord’s promise of love and the faithfulness of His love when we meet Him in the clouds.

There, we are found in His righteousness based on the faithfulness of His love, that is, righteousness from God.

For this is what we believe :
and be found in Him ( Christ ), not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith' -Philippians 3:9

The only thing I am addressing is those who state ..... the wrath of God was poured out on Jesus. There wasn't any wrath involved .... He gave His life out of Love .... not to appease an angry God.

eleos1954 · Nov 12, 2020

Neogaia777 said:
It is part of the way "transactions" happen or occur in Heaven, that's why the sacrificial system in the OT, but when the one, the only one, came, who was the only one who possibly could, etc, ever could, etc, pay for "all", and "all of it all for all time", etc, then that one did it for us, and did so fully well willingly, etc...

But then even that one was pardoned or forgiven also, etc, shown by the proof of the resurrection, etc, all revealing God's very great and truly loving and forgiving nature before all, etc... But also His justice/judgement first also, but also how His great mercy, love, etc, ultimately triumphs over it all in the end...

That even the scapegoat was even Himself or itself spared or saved, etc...

The scapegoat itself is innocent, but is considered guilty, and is not normally spared or saved, but in this instance He/it was, etc, and God was trying to show us all something by "both", etc...

Which is/was or might have been something having to do with His great justice/judgement first, but also how His great mercy, love, etc, triumphs over it all in the end, etc...

Trying to show us something in "both", by both allowing it to die and/or perish, but and then also, in also sparing it or bringing it back, or back to life in or by the end, etc...

This that He is or was trying to show us by this, I probably don't have "all of all about it all" all figured out yet, etc... But I do know that He (God) is trying to show us something by "both", etc, in both allowing it to perish or die, but then also in bringing it back also, etc...

Maybe others have some thoughts maybe in just what all exactly God is or was trying to show us by all of this maybe, etc...?

God Bless!

The only thing I am trying to address is .... some say Gods wrath was poured out on Jesus .... Jesus willingly laid His life down .... there was not any wrath involved. He gave His life out of Love and not to appease a angry God.

eleos1954 · Nov 12, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
It's not penal substitution.

Adam = mankind. Jesus = mankind:

For since death is through man, the resurrection of the dead also is through a Man. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive. 1 Cor 15:21-22

Adam = mankind. Mankind had to bear the penalty for mankind's sin, but this would only have resulted in eternal separation from God, because sin cannot cleanse sin, nor would sinful mankind rise again from the dead after suffering the penalty for his sin.

The Word of God became a man in order to bear the sins of mankind: Death had come to mankind through mankind (Adam), and all mankind sinned.

And so it is written, "The first man, Adam, was made a living soul," the last Adam was a life-giving Spirit. 1 Cor 15:45

The penalty for mankind's sin was being poured out upon mankind in the body of a man called Jesus: He Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that dying to sins, we might live to righteousness; by whose stripes you were healed. 1 Pet 2:24

The Word of God became mankind in order to bear the sins of mankind: Whereas God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and putting the word of reconciliation in us. 2 Cor 5:19

The substitution lies in the fact that following the fall of Adam, Jesus was the only man ever to have lived who was without sin: For Christ also once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, indeed being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit. 1 Pet 3:18.

We are all born into Adam who sinned. We all need to be born by the Spirit who is the Father of the man called Jesus:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. John 3:16-17.

He is the last Adam, the Son of Man, meaning He represents mankind before God, just as the first Adam does: Son of God, Son of Man. Fully God, Fully Man. Mankind's sin has been paid for by mankind. It's not "penal substitution".

Why did God do this? BECAUSE IT WAS THE ONLY WAY GOD COULD SAVE MANKIND. Sinful man could not die for his own sins and then rise again. Jesus was without sin.

What I am trying to address is the statement that some make .... God poured out His wrath on Jesus .... Jesus willingly gave His life out of Love to atone for our sin .... not to appease an angry God.

eleos1954 · Nov 12, 2020

Randy777 said:
You might focus on Isaiah 53. Also note we were purchased by Jesus's "blood" for God.
We were baptized into His death. He paid the curse of the law or it was fulfilled in Him "death".

You must keep in mind God didn't put Jesus on the cross. The wicked did. God allowed it and gained victory over death for the many by it. God brought "good" out of their evil intent.

Jesus willing summited to the Fathers will. He stated He could ask the Father for 12 legions of angels which the Father would put at His disposal. He could have protected Himself but He didn't allow His will to supersede the Fathers will.

All the Father and Jesus did was out of Love. The love Jesus had for the Father and the love the Father had for the world.

Yes, you are correct .... He willingly gave Himself out of Love ..... not out of wrath ... and this is the point I am trying to make.

Some say .... God poured out His wrath on Jesus .... no ... there was no anger (wrath) involved. He gave His life .... so through Him we could have life.

Zao is life · Nov 12, 2020

childeye 2 said:
The term fruit is also used in positive and negative denotations identifying a good tree and a bad tree by the fruit. In this sense the bad tree would have a predisposition to do what is bad, just as the good tree would have a predisposition to do what is good. I believe the reason is because the two trees, or rather persons, each have one of two opposing images of god/God which they reason upon.

An excellent analysis if I may say. I've noticed the same thing. There are places in scripture that suggest that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the serpent and the devil are all one and the same. The fruit would be his words which are eaten when they are pondered/chewed and swallowed/believed. I see sin as any course or direction in separation from God. There are sinful thoughts that words can bring to our minds from external sources, which contest the the Word of God, as shown here: Corinthians 10:5, Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;...

Could the tree of of life be Christ? Is the tree of good and evil adorned with gems while the tree of life is plain looking? Does the tree of good/evil promote an ideal to chart one's own course and view subservience as wrong? I think about these things. I think Eve was manipulated by creating a desire within her to want to be like God in stature, when they already were created like God in their innocence to begin with.

Casting down imaginings: The serpent introduced an image of god that was depriving mankind from a knowledge that would make them his equal, by lying to them about dying if they partook of it. This false image of god is like a self seeking untrustworthy overlord, gaining glory through a deceptive means, which when reasoned upon would tend to justify disobedience. I believe the devil is projecting his own character. The Christ on the other hand is an image that is a self sacrificing servant to all, the exact opposite of a tyrant. Wherefore I have said that I believe there are two opposing images of God in two good/bad trees and their predispositions are seen by their fruit according to which image of God/god they hold to be true.

What you say is very interesting. I do believe that the tree of life is the Word of God: "In Him was life, and the life was the light of men". John 1:4 "It is the Spirit that makes alive, the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit and are life". John 6:63 "But whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst, but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." John 4:14

I believe the above is symbolized as a tree in the Genesis account and as the river of life in the Revelation. Eternal life is in Christ.

The serpent was a very crafty salesman. Adam and Eve had been created in the image and likeness of God, as you pointed out, yet the serpent promised Eve that if she eats the fruit she would be like God, knowing good and evil. The product: the knowledge of good and evil. The supposed benefit: To be like God. So Eve "saw that the tree was good for food" etc.

Ever wondered why the serpent approached Eve, not Adam?

In Genesis, the creation of Eve is only spoken about after Adam had received the command from God. So the serpent attempted to sow doubt in Eve's mind regarding what she had learned from her husband: "Hath God indeed said.. every tree".etc Eve, in her reply, both adds to and takes away from the word of God: "neither shall you touch it" (not said by God), lest you die (God had said they would surely die). Adam knew exactly what God had said, because he got the command from God. Would the serpent have said to Adam, "Hath God indeed said you shall not eat of every tree in the garden"? Probably not, because Adam would have sensed a malicious intent in such a question immediately, because it was not what God had said, and Adam knew exactly what God had said.

So the serpent, the crafty salesman, approaches the woman, and attempts to sow doubt in her mind regarding what she learned from Adam. Then he tells a total lie: "You will not surely die." etc.

Eve is a type of the bride of Christ, Adam (before his fall) a type of the groom. Christ is the last Adam. We read about enmity between the woman and her seed in Gen 3:15. Christ is the seed. Then in Revelation 12:17 the serpent goes to war against "the rest of the woman's seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" after having been cast out of heaven and down to the earth.

There is a great deal of information in the account of the fall of man in Genesis.

So if Christ is the tree of life, it would make sense that Satan is the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I never thought of it that way. Very interesting indeed.

Zao is life · Nov 12, 2020

eleos1954 said:
What I am trying to address is the statement that some make .... God poured out His wrath on Jesus .... Jesus willingly gave His life out of Love to atone for our sin .... not to appease an angry God.

I think I understand your point of view, but I would have to think about it a lot more. All I know is that the word "justified" has legal implications. Many say it means "just as if I'd never sinned", but to me it means, "the penalty prescribed by the law has been executed". Just before Jesus' arrest He said, "Now is the judgment of this world". Judgment too, implies a punishment prescribed by law. Sin was being condemned when Jesus hung on the cross.

Jamdoc · Nov 12, 2020

eleos1954 said:
Yes, Jesus died in our place and did so by Him willingly laying His life down .... what I am bringing up for discussion is the wrath part only .... His death wasn't due to Gods wrath (ie appeasing an angry god) rather life for life of which He did so willingly and yes God was pleased that He did this (willingly gave Himself) not to appease anger.

Some make the statement Gods wrath was poured out on Him .... because He willingly laid His life down there was no wrath involved. He laid His life down out of love .... not to appease an angry God.

I'm addressing the poured out His wrath statement only, nothing else. Everything else stays in tact.

Isaiah 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him;

There is always punishment for sin. Animal sacrifices showed that sin cost life itself, even if a substitutionary life. Jesus took that punishment for us. It's obviously reduced, as ours would be eternal while Jesus' was for 3 days.
But Jesus didn't call out "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" for nothing.

Saint Steven · Nov 12, 2020

Jamdoc said:
It is ultimately what Jesus taught. To believe on Him and be forgiven of sin and repent of sin to not go to eternal torment.

That is what we have been taught to believe. But it falls apart when the exceptions arise. What about that child under the age of accountability? Doesn't apply to them, right? And those who have never heard of Jesus? Doesn't apply to them, right?

Jamdoc · Nov 12, 2020

Saint Steven said:
That is what we have been taught to believe. But it falls apart when the exceptions arise. What about that child under the age of accountability? Doesn't apply to them, right? And those who have never heard of Jesus? Doesn't apply to them, right?

I cleared that up both times.
First, that children are not in sin until they know the difference between good and evil. They don't have sin, so they go to heaven.
Matthew 18 and 19 both have examples, and I quoted the specific scriptures in this thread earlier.
2 Samuel 12 same thing.

Second, those people who haven't heard the gospel, yeah it's unfortunate but they are still punished for their sin, not because they didn't believe on Jesus, believing on Jesus is the way out of being condemned for the sins you committed. It's a lifeline, but every one after they can learn between right and wrong does something stupid to deserve drowning. You don't blame the captain of the ship for not throwing a lifeline to a person if they drowned especially if they were doing something stupid like dancing and running around next to the edge of the deck. I believe that the punishment for those who never heard the gospel won't be as bad as for those who did and rejected it Luke 12:47-48

Penal Substitution ... is it biblical?

You can call me Steve

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.

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