WHY THE LORD'S DAY IS NOT SUNDAY
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You know, you can say all you want, criticize all you want, all of that. I really don't care. You worship your way and see, and I will as well.
I have never tried to say that the hierarchy of the Church is lily-white, but then neither is the hierarchy of ANY church. What is pure is the faith.
You keep bringing up V2, which changed NOTHING of the way we worship, though some interpreted it as allowing guitars and drums into worship, and a few other things; but that's not what the documents say. You keep talking about ham dinners, but I don't know what you're referring to. You talk about hour-long worship services, and object to people spending time with their families over a meal. I don't get it. None of that has anything to do with our command to worship God always.
I have conceded that lots in the Church don't keep the Sabbath rest, but this is an individual thing, not an article of faith.
I don't care how you worship. As SDA, I know how you interpret Scripture, and it's the way 'yours' teach you, not what you actually read.
So keep it up, and laugh it up. Your church was not present at the day of Pentecost, that's what I know, so I know you can't have an understanding of what the Bible you were handed says because you've ripped Apostolic Tradition away from it, and without that Tradition, you have no compass for understanding what it means.
So...put the kitty on the table.
Bye!
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You really did not answer the question asked of you here. As posted earlier, God has ordained everyone who believes and follows His Word according to the scriptures already provided. It seems you do not believe them though so by what authority do you tell me God has not ordained me or anyone else that believes and follows God's Word? *John 14:26; John 16:13; John 8:31-36; 1 John 2:27; Hebrews 8:11; John 3:34; Matthew 28:19.
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It is not hard to understand the scriptures if you read them and what is said in them is what is being shared with you and written in the scripture.
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Try to follow what? I was asking you for clarification as I did not know what you were talking about here. If you do not want to have a discussion just say so. I was only asking what do you mean.
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Your response...
How so? You say "not really". While God's Word says...
MATTHEW 21:23-27 [23] And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came to him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority do you these things? and who gave you this authority? [24], And Jesus answered and said to them, I also will ask you one thing, which if you tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things. [25], The baptism of John, from where was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say to us, Why did you not then believe him? [26], But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet. [27], And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said to them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.
You do not believe the words of JESUS above? Sorry dear friend but for me, I choose to believe the bible.
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I was only asking you for clarification. I do not think there is any need to get upset.
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Well actually that is not true. I believe everything I have learned personally, I have done so be reading the bible asking God to be by guide and teacher. God promises to do so if we believe and follow his Word *John 14:26; John 16:13; John 8:31-36; John 17:17; 1 John 2:27; Hebrews 8:11. How can we have faith without God's Word? How can we be saved without faith that comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. How can we have salvation if we do not have God's Word? This is the question we must all consider. Who are we following? That teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God?
Thank you for the discussion dear fiend.
May God bless you as you receive his Word.
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clefty
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a sabbatismos...a Hebrew-Greek linguistic mashup word for His people a Jew-Greek joining into a new creation...a citizen of Israel...and NOT just those of Jacob
A sabbatismos...word better translated as a “keeping of the Sabbath“...as He did
the seventh day rest after six of work...all day and only a day...of every week
as it was before those of Jacob...and given to man...BEFORE sin...
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clefty
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there was a time yours were NOT so agreeable...but thanks
that is not the issue but to explore why the lack of consistency with scripture...NOW you ready for the two column lists of His Way vs. man’s traditions?
not only is your faith NOT as what it was in the first century when Peter was “first pope”but your faith is NOT pure to ITSELF as a growing number within yours claim this Pope is a heretic...and Peter’s seat is empty
you minimize the impact of the V2...to not only mix with others diluting your own
but to reverse CENTURIES and BIBLICAL teaching that there is only ONE WAY to heaven...
V2 provides that the Jews have their OWN PATH and no longer need our Savior...thus there are now TWO brides...
our command being HIS command to worship Him HOW? With Ham dinners and NOT as He demonstrated with a seventh day rest?
no you instead insisted because Christendom does otherwise one should NOT do as He demonstrated...
others might be reading...you tend to make this all about you...
nope...and even they reject His Way...not keeping festivals and preferring names Babylon gave Him
laugh or lament?...or as EliYah provoked “shout louder your god might be sleeping!”?
lol...Pentecost is found in the part of the Bible you did NOT “make”...it is His Calendar NOT apostolic tradition...
The OT is also a compass for His Way...which His Spirit encourages His to follow...
His ekklesia was at Sinai to receive His living oracles...already full of those NOT of Jacob...
His still follow...with the sabbatismos which remains for them...
I understand you less and less...
Might He lead...halleluYah
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I have been meaning to get back to this for some time and got distracted. Let's continue on a little further showing that God's people all through time from Genesis to Revelation and from the days of JESUS and the Apostles to after the death and resurrection of JESUS and the death of the Apostles all through time to this very present day, have always kept the true "Lord's day" which according to the scriptures is God's 4th commandment Sabbath of God's 10 commandments..
Already started and covered in this thread here...
*First and second century AD Sabbath keepers (linked)
*Third century AD Sabbath keepers (linked)
*Fourth century AD Sabbath keepers (linked)
*Fifth century AD Sabbath keepers (linked)
*Sixth century AD Sabbath keepers (linked)
*Seventh century AD Sabbath keepers (linked)
.......................
Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries - The Eighth Century A.D.
COUNCIL OF FRIAUL, ITALY-A.D. 791 (CANON 13)
"We command all Christians to observe the Lord's day to be held not in honour of the past Sabbath, but on account of that holy night of the first of the week called the Lord's day. When speaking of that Sabbath which the Jews observe, the last day of the week, and which also our peasants observe.." Mansi, 13, 851
PERSIA AND MESOPOTAMIA
"The hills of Persia and the valleys of the Tigris and Euphrates reechoed their songs of praise. They reaped their harvests and paid their tithes. They repaired to their churches on the Sabbath day for the worship of God." "Realencyclopaedie fur Protestatische and Krche," art. "Nestorianer"; also Yule, "The Book of ser Marco Polo," Vol.2, p.409.
INDIA, CHINA, PERSIA, ETC
"Widespread and enduring was the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath among the believers of the Church of the East and the St. Thomas Christians of India, who never were connected with Rome. It also was maintained among those bodies which broke off from Rome after the Council of Chalcedon namely, the Abyssinians, the Jacobites, the Maronites, and the Armenians," Schaff-Herzog, The New Enclopadia of Religious Knowledge," art. "Nestorians"; also Realencyclopaedie fur Protestantische Theologie und Kirche," art. "Nestorianer."
COUNCIL OF LIFTINAE, BELGIUM-A.D.745 (ATTENDED BY BONIFACE)
"The third allocution of this council warns against the observance of the Sabbath, referring to the decree of the council of Laodicea." Dr. Hefele, Counciliengfesch, 3, 512, sec. 362
CHINA-A.D.781
In A.D. 781 the famous China Monument was inscribed in marble to tell of the growth of Christianity in China at that time. The inscription, consisting of 763 words, was unearthed in 1625 near the city of Changan and now stands in the "Forest of Tablets," Changan. The following extract from the stone shows that the Sabbath was observed:
"On the seventh day we offer sacrifices, after having purified our hearts, and received absolution for our sins. This religion, so perfect and so excellent, is difficult to name, but it enlightens darkness by its brilliant precepts." Christianity in China, M. I'Abbe Huc, Vol. I, ch.2, pp. 48, 49
We will continue working our way down to the 20th Century...
More to come...
Already started and covered in this thread here...
*First and second century AD Sabbath keepers (linked)
*Third century AD Sabbath keepers (linked)
*Fourth century AD Sabbath keepers (linked)
*Fifth century AD Sabbath keepers (linked)
*Sixth century AD Sabbath keepers (linked)
*Seventh century AD Sabbath keepers (linked)
.......................
Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries - The Eighth Century A.D.
COUNCIL OF FRIAUL, ITALY-A.D. 791 (CANON 13)
"We command all Christians to observe the Lord's day to be held not in honour of the past Sabbath, but on account of that holy night of the first of the week called the Lord's day. When speaking of that Sabbath which the Jews observe, the last day of the week, and which also our peasants observe.." Mansi, 13, 851
PERSIA AND MESOPOTAMIA
"The hills of Persia and the valleys of the Tigris and Euphrates reechoed their songs of praise. They reaped their harvests and paid their tithes. They repaired to their churches on the Sabbath day for the worship of God." "Realencyclopaedie fur Protestatische and Krche," art. "Nestorianer"; also Yule, "The Book of ser Marco Polo," Vol.2, p.409.
INDIA, CHINA, PERSIA, ETC
"Widespread and enduring was the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath among the believers of the Church of the East and the St. Thomas Christians of India, who never were connected with Rome. It also was maintained among those bodies which broke off from Rome after the Council of Chalcedon namely, the Abyssinians, the Jacobites, the Maronites, and the Armenians," Schaff-Herzog, The New Enclopadia of Religious Knowledge," art. "Nestorians"; also Realencyclopaedie fur Protestantische Theologie und Kirche," art. "Nestorianer."
COUNCIL OF LIFTINAE, BELGIUM-A.D.745 (ATTENDED BY BONIFACE)
"The third allocution of this council warns against the observance of the Sabbath, referring to the decree of the council of Laodicea." Dr. Hefele, Counciliengfesch, 3, 512, sec. 362
CHINA-A.D.781
In A.D. 781 the famous China Monument was inscribed in marble to tell of the growth of Christianity in China at that time. The inscription, consisting of 763 words, was unearthed in 1625 near the city of Changan and now stands in the "Forest of Tablets," Changan. The following extract from the stone shows that the Sabbath was observed:
"On the seventh day we offer sacrifices, after having purified our hearts, and received absolution for our sins. This religion, so perfect and so excellent, is difficult to name, but it enlightens darkness by its brilliant precepts." Christianity in China, M. I'Abbe Huc, Vol. I, ch.2, pp. 48, 49
We will continue working our way down to the 20th Century...
More to come...
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The secret is that ordination is something specific, and these passages are not speaking directly to you or me. They report what Jesus said to the apostles. No one else. They are informational for us. God does ordain people to preach and interpret Scripture, but he doesn't ordain everyone. If the Scriptures you keep posting applied to everyone, who would be the student? We're not all teachers, we don't all carry the authority. Jesus told the Church he would send the Holy Spirit to guide them in all truth. Specifically the apostles, not you, or me. The authority is the Church's, in the persons of the bishops, who are successors of the apostles. So by their authority, I can safely say you aren't ordained to interpret Scripture. You are ordained to be Christian if you've been properly baptized, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
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Hah, oh, yes. The plain meaning. The problem is you don't have the context necessary, which is Sacred Tradition.
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Let's continue on a little further...
Already started and covered in this thread here...
*First and second century AD Sabbath keepers (linked)
*Third century AD Sabbath keepers (linked)
*Fourth century AD Sabbath keepers (linked)
*Fifth century AD Sabbath keepers (linked)
*Sixth century AD Sabbath keepers (linked)
*Seventh century AD Sabbath keepers (linked)
*Eighth century AD Sabbath keepers (linked)
Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries - The Ninth Century A.D.
BULGARIA
"Bulgaria in the early season of its evangelization had been taught that no work should be performed on the Sabbath." Responsa Nicolai Papae I and Con-Consulta Bulllllgarorum, Responsum 10, found in Mansi, Sacrorum Concilorum Nova et Amplissima Colectio, Vol.15; p. 406; also Hefele, Conciliengeschicte, Vol.4, sec. 478
BULGARIA
(Pope Nicholas I, in answer to letter from Bogaris, ruling prince of Bulgaria.) "Ques. 6-Bathing is allowed on Sunday. Ques. 10-One is to cease from work on Sunday, but not also on the Sabbath." Hefele, 4,346- 352, sec. 478
The Bulgarians had been accustomed to rest on the Sabbath. Pope Nicholas writes against this practice.
CONSTANTINOPLE
(Photuus, Patriarch of Constantinople {in counter- synod that deposed Nicolas}, thus accused Papacy). Against the canons, they induced the Bulgarians to fast on the Sabbath." Photius, vonKard, Hergenrother, 1, 643
Note: The Papacy had always tried to bring the seventh-day Sabbath into disrepute by insisting that all should fast on that day. In this manner (she sought to turn people towards Sunday, the first day, the day that Rome had adopted.
ATHINGIANS
Cardinal Hergenrother says that they stood in intimate relation with Emperor Michael II (821-829) and testifies that they observed the Sabbath. Kirchengeschichte, 1, 527
INDIA, ABYSSINIA
"Widespread and enduring was the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath among the believers of the Church of the East and the St. Thomas Christians of India. It was also maintained by the Abyssinians.
BULGARIA
"Pope Nicholas I, in the ninth century, sent the ruling prince of Bulgaria a long document saying in it that one is to cease from work on Sunday, but not on the Sabbath. The head of the Greek Church, offended at the interference of the Papacy, declared the Pope ex-communicated." Truth Triumphant, p. 232
To be continued...
Already started and covered in this thread here...
*First and second century AD Sabbath keepers (linked)
*Third century AD Sabbath keepers (linked)
*Fourth century AD Sabbath keepers (linked)
*Fifth century AD Sabbath keepers (linked)
*Sixth century AD Sabbath keepers (linked)
*Seventh century AD Sabbath keepers (linked)
*Eighth century AD Sabbath keepers (linked)
Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries - The Ninth Century A.D.
BULGARIA
"Bulgaria in the early season of its evangelization had been taught that no work should be performed on the Sabbath." Responsa Nicolai Papae I and Con-Consulta Bulllllgarorum, Responsum 10, found in Mansi, Sacrorum Concilorum Nova et Amplissima Colectio, Vol.15; p. 406; also Hefele, Conciliengeschicte, Vol.4, sec. 478
BULGARIA
(Pope Nicholas I, in answer to letter from Bogaris, ruling prince of Bulgaria.) "Ques. 6-Bathing is allowed on Sunday. Ques. 10-One is to cease from work on Sunday, but not also on the Sabbath." Hefele, 4,346- 352, sec. 478
The Bulgarians had been accustomed to rest on the Sabbath. Pope Nicholas writes against this practice.
CONSTANTINOPLE
(Photuus, Patriarch of Constantinople {in counter- synod that deposed Nicolas}, thus accused Papacy). Against the canons, they induced the Bulgarians to fast on the Sabbath." Photius, vonKard, Hergenrother, 1, 643
Note: The Papacy had always tried to bring the seventh-day Sabbath into disrepute by insisting that all should fast on that day. In this manner (she sought to turn people towards Sunday, the first day, the day that Rome had adopted.
ATHINGIANS
Cardinal Hergenrother says that they stood in intimate relation with Emperor Michael II (821-829) and testifies that they observed the Sabbath. Kirchengeschichte, 1, 527
INDIA, ABYSSINIA
"Widespread and enduring was the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath among the believers of the Church of the East and the St. Thomas Christians of India. It was also maintained by the Abyssinians.
BULGARIA
"Pope Nicholas I, in the ninth century, sent the ruling prince of Bulgaria a long document saying in it that one is to cease from work on Sunday, but not on the Sabbath. The head of the Greek Church, offended at the interference of the Papacy, declared the Pope ex-communicated." Truth Triumphant, p. 232
To be continued...
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You don't understand "This is the day the Lord has made. Let us be glad and rejoice in it."?
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Not really was referring to your comment "Sounds familiar, doesn't it?"
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You think I'm upset?
And you want me to believe you know how to interpret Sacred Scripture...
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I have no doubt that you believe everything you have learned. (from who did you learn it?)
Who are we following? The most ancient and those closest to the apostles who learned directly from Jesus. And therefore Jesus Himself. Want proof? What do you believe about John chapter 6?
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Can be said about 'yours', too...by yours, I mean anti-Catholics. Ask Henry VIII, for example, or those Catholics in Switzerland who refused to dissent from the Church.
You know, Catholicism is not a popularity contest, and it doesn't matter what some so-called Catholics believe. What matters is the faith as it is taught-the Catechism.
Show me where V2 did this.
Again, show me where V2 did this.
I don't believe you. Prove it.
Who worships Him with ham dinners?
I never insisted any such thing. And neither does my Church.
I know. That's kind of what I'm trying to say to you. You have no idea, really. My comment about 'put the kitty on the table', interpret it. What does it mean to you?
What does it have to do with anything? The point is that, without context, you have no idea what I was saying to you. The same is true with Scripture. You have no context, so it's easy to misinterpret what Scripture is saying.
A more relevant example is John 6. Without context, it's easy to think Jesus was speaking symbolically, but in the context of other parts of Scripture, and what the apostles taught after Jesus died, it is clear that it was not symbolic.
And that's the point. Without the Church Fathers, Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium, we have only our own understanding to know what Scripture is telling us.
We are not beholden to Sacred Scripture alone. And yet our Bible has more to it than yours does. Why is that relevant? You know the Jews celebrate Hanukkah, right? Where is that practice in Scripture?
Finally, here's a read for you, should you decide to accept it...What the Early Church Believed: Sabbath or Sunday?
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