Do you really believe that faith produces works?

ImAllLikeOkWaitWat said:

People act according to their belief.

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Not true. King David was a mature believer when he raped and murdered. He was out of fellowship with the Lord.

Spiritual Jew said:

The kind of faith that saves will produce good works, according to Paul.

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

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Paul never said that. v.10 is clear. Believers are "created in Christ Jesus TO DO good works. It doesn't say that they will. It says that's what believers were created TO DO.

Big difference.

Friedrich Rubinstein said: ↑
To have faith in Jesus Christ means to put all your trust in him.

BibleBeliever1611 said:

That's exactly what easy-believism teaches.

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Because that's exactly what the Bible teaches!

BibleBeliever1611 said:

But if genuine faith actually produces works, then you should have no problem with easy-believism. All that easy-believism teaches is having faith in Jesus.

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But if you don't have faith, does claiming that you do change anything with regards to your salvation?

Imagine that you tell an atheist that they can live a sinful life and still go to heaven if they just have faith in Jesus. Then that person says, "OK, great! I'll just have faith in Jesus then!" If you are one of those people who believe that faith produces works, you should have no problem with this at all. If faith always produces works, then according to you, that person's faith will produce works.

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In a sense, we don't have any problem. Faith produces works. If this hypothetical convert from atheism begins to live a changed life, we may guess that he does have Faith in Christ. If nothing changes except perhaps for him calling himself a Christian, we can be fairly well assured that he doesn't have Faith.

FreeGrace2 said:

James' whole point was that unless believers demonstrate their faith by their works, no one will be able to see that they have faith. He was saying nothing about what leads to soul salvation. In fact, the 2 verses following v.14 about "can that faith save?" is an example of hypocrisy to show the point.

The one who tells a cold and hungry person (another believer) to "be warmed and well fed" but doesn't provide any of the needs identified, is a hypocrite and the cold and hungry person will clearly NOT SEE the faith of the hypocrite. That doesn't mean the hypocrite doesn't have faith. It clearly means he wasn't demonstrating his faith to others when the opportunity came.

There is another passage that makes the same point James was.

1 John 3:16-18
16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters.
17 If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person?
18 Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.

v.16 tells us what believers OUGHT to do. Sacrificially love our brothers.
v.17 is parallel to James 2:14-18, and is about hypocrisy.
v.18 makes clear who John was addressing: "dear children". That is reserved for believers. Saved people.


No, that is what believers OUGHT to do. Having visible consequences in our lives. That was James' point. You were correct until you added "visible consequences". Having fatih does mean putting all your trust in Him for saving you. And He does just that for those who believe in Him (have faith/put their trust).


No, they have either been taught wrongly, or they are simply rebellious.

The Bible deals very harshly with rebellious children. Including God's children. Such children will be disciplined, and rather painfully (Heb 12:11).

Some have been turned over to Satan for physical death (1 Cor 5:5), and some have been turned over to Satan "to be taught not to blaspheme" (1 Tim 1:19,20).

And 1 Cor 10:1-11 is a prime example of what God does for rebellious children.

Those who use the term "easy believism" in a pejorative way only want to make getting saved rather difficult. They just muddy the waters. They add works to the issue, which is unbiblical.

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You don't seem to know the difference between cheap grace and costly grace. If our faith doesn't have "visible consequences" as I said then we're not under grace. God's grace is free, but there is a condition to it. And that is real faith. I suggest you to read Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

FreeGrace2 said:

Paul never said that. v.10 is clear. Believers are "created in Christ Jesus TO DO good works. It doesn't say that they will. It says that's what believers were created TO DO.

Big difference.

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Why would someone who has put their faith in Christ as their Lord and Savior not do any good works? If He is your Lord that means He is your Master and King. What kind of faith is it if you are not willing to serve your Master?

Show me a Christian who has never done good works and you will have shown me a fake Christian. James was correct when he said faith without works is dead. You are fooling yourself if you think someone can just believe in Jesus and be saved without any expectation of seeing a change in that person's life afterwards.

BibleBeliever1611 said: ↑
But if genuine faith actually produces works, then you should have no problem with easy-believism. All that easy-believism teaches is having faith in Jesus.

Albion said:

But if you don't have faith, does claiming that you do change anything with regards to your salvation?

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It isn't what a person SAYS that counts. It's what a person BELIEVES that counts.

In a sense, we don't have any problem. Faith produces works.

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You do have a problem if you can't quote a verse that actually says this.

If this hypothetical convert from atheism begins to live a changed life, we may guess that he does have Faith in Christ. If nothing changes except perhaps for him calling himself a Christian, we can be fairly well assured that he doesn't have Faith.

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If you are a mind reader, or omniscient, you would be right. But since you're neither, you have no idea. Even Simon the sorcerer "believed and was baptized". If one wants to discount Simon, they must also discount the rest of the people who "believed and were baptized". Acts 8

FreeGrace2 said:

Not true. King David was a mature believer when he raped and murdered. He was out of fellowship with the Lord.

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But he also did plenty of good things. No one is saying that we become perfect when we become saved, but when we're saved the Holy Spirit comes to live within us. Does He come to live in us just to sit there and congratulate us on being saved or does He lead us to do the good works God has prepared for us to do?

Friedrich Rubinstein said:

You don't seem to know the difference between cheap grace and costly grace.

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Oh, but I do. Those who push "costly grace" are legalists who want to muddy the waters with works. And, to be clear, let's be honest here; grace isn't "cheap" (that's just a pejorative to attack), it is FREE. Do YOU understand the difference between what is cheap and what is free? Apparently not.

If our faith doesn't have "visible consequences" as I said then we're not under grace.

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The Bible is clear that believers may not be "under grace". It's those who add works to the notion about salvation.

God's grace is free, but there is a condition to it.

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Please explain what you think this "condition" is.

In the meantime, I'll explain what the Bible says about conditions.

John 3:16 - whoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life.

Acts 16:31 - believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.

There is only 1 condition for salvation; to believe in Jesus Christ; meaning, believe that He IS the Son of God, that He DID die on the cross for your sins, and that He WILL save everyone who trusts in Him to save them.

Any questions?

And that is real faith. I suggest you to read Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

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I prefer reading the Bible. That's where I get my doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness. 2 Tim 3:16,17

If Bonhoeffer does the same, he and I will be on the same page.

BibleBeliever1611 said:

The people who believe that genuine faith automatically produces works and changes your lifestyle are usually the same people who criticize the teaching of easy-believism. By 'easy-believism' I mean the teaching which says that you could just live however you want and still go to heaven if you just have faith in Jesus. Usually those people have a problem with that and think that people would just use it as a licence to sin.

But if genuine faith actually produces works, then you should have no problem with easy-believism. All that easy-believism teaches is having faith in Jesus.

Imagine that you tell an atheist that they can live a sinful life and still go to heaven if they just have faith in Jesus. Then that person says, "OK, great! I'll just have faith in Jesus then!" If you are one of those people who believe that faith produces works, you should have no problem with this at all. If faith always produces works, then according to you, that person's faith will produce works.

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Saying "I will have faith in Jesus then" is not equivalent to having faith. I don't know any atheist who would be likely to say that other than sarcastically but that is besides the point. If one has faith in Jesus one will bear fruit, not because one wants to go to heaven but because faith causes that to happen apart from one's desires. If one's priority is that one wants to go to heaven, so one decides that one will say one has faith, one is fooling oneself.

FreeGrace2 said:

It isn't what a person SAYS that counts. It's what a person BELIEVES that counts.

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You think mental assent is enough to be saved? Where does scripture teach that? Nowhere that I've seen.

You think that believing in Jesus is no different than believing 1 + 1 = 2. That is not what scripture teaches.

Even the demons have the kind of faith that you're talking about and that doesn't do them any good, does it?

James 2:19 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

What did Jesus Himself say about what kind of faith He expected people to have in Him?

Matthew 10:37 Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.

Jesus made it very clear that you must love Him more than anyone or anything and make Him the Lord of your life in order to be worthy of Him. Do you agree with that?

Jesus made it very clear that you must be willing to give up your life for Him in order to be saved and be worthy of Him. Do you agree with that?

It goes along with what Paul taught here:

Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

You are missing the part of the equation where someone must humble themselves and bow to Christ and accept Him as their Lord in order to be saved.

You don't have to do good works to become saved, but if you have submitted yourself to Him as your Lord then the Holy Spirit will come to live in you and spur you on to the good works God has prepared for you. That is a guarantee. And you will gladly do those good works if Jesus is your Lord and you love Him. You don't do them to earn salvation, you do them out of gratitude and out of humble submission to your Master.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Not true. King David was a mature believer when he raped and murdered. He was out of fellowship with the Lord.

Spiritual Jew said:

But he also did plenty of good things.

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And he did, when he was in fellowship with the Lord. But he had his share of sins.

No one is saying that we become perfect when we become saved, but when we're saved the Holy Spirit comes to live within us.

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In the OT, the Holy Spirit wasn't given to all believers, but only certain ones, and that for special service. That's why David prayed that the Lord wouldn't remove the Spirit from him.

Does He come to live in us just to sit there and congratulate us on being saved or does He lead us to do the good works God has prepared for us to do?

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Please don't miss the critical point. Only when the believer has been cleansed from on-going sins (1 John 1:9), and IS filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:28) and walking by means of the Spirit (Gal 5:16) rather than grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching (21 Thess 5:19) the Spirit, the Spirit doesn't lead.

The believer must be in fellowship before the Spirit will lead.

I wonder how many belevers even understand this.

FreeGrace2 said:

It isn't what a person SAYS that counts. It's what a person BELIEVES that counts.

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I think that's what I said.

If you are a mind reader, or omniscient, you would be right. But since you're neither, you have no idea. Even Simon the sorcerer "believed and was baptized". If one wants to discount Simon, they must also discount the rest of the people who "believed and were baptized". Acts 8

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No, you're quite wrong. The situation, the scenario, is right.

I didn't specify whom it might fit, but that's beside the point. If the person in question--the convert who was described in the preceding post--did X, then we know something about him.

If, however, he did Y, we know something else or at least have good reason to believe that it was so. It's not a matter of mindreading; it's not a matter of making any decision for God.

The evidence is in the observable doings of good works or, OTOH, the absence of them.

You do have a problem if you can't quote a verse that actually says this.

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We can in fact cite an entire book of the Bible--the Epistle of James. And then there are a number of other verses as well.

FreeGrace2 said:

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Not true. King David was a mature believer when he raped and murdered. He was out of fellowship with the Lord.

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Where did I say otherwise?

And he did, when he was in fellowship with the Lord. But he had his share of sins.

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Do you think he didn't need to repent of them? Please be more specific about what point you are trying to make here?

Please don't miss the critical point. Only when the believer has been cleansed from on-going sins (1 John 1:9), and IS filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:28) and walking by means of the Spirit (Gal 5:16) rather than grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching (21 Thess 5:19) the Spirit, the Spirit doesn't lead.

The believer must be in fellowship before the Spirit will lead.

I wonder how many belevers even understand this.

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How long do you think this process takes? We receive the Spirit immediately upon salvation and He immediately spurs us on to good works at that point. Was that not your experience? You're not making any sense to me. I'm not saying we become fully mature Christians immediately upon salvation, but I am saying that the Holy Spirit begins working on us immediately upon salvation. Do you disagree with that?

Please explain to me as specifically as you can what you think a person needs to do to be saved. Describe the kind of faith you believe someone needs to be saved. Are you saying that mental assent alone is enough? That is how you are coming across. Please clarify what you believe as specifically as possible.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
It isn't what a person SAYS that counts. It's what a person BELIEVES that counts.

Spiritual Jew said:

You think mental assent is enough to be saved?

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So that's what you take away from what i wrote?? What do you think "believe" means anyway?

Do you understand what "mental assent" means? It's thrown around a lot. What does that mean?

Where does scripture teach that? Nowhere that I've seen.

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Well, how much Scripure have you seen?

You think that believing in Jesus is no different than believing 1 + 1 = 2. That is not what scripture teaches.

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Here is what Scripture DOES teach about having salvation/eternal life. In case you haven't "seen" it.

Salvation:

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know
him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Did you notice what word tied all these verses together?

Even the demons have the kind of faith that you're talking about and that doesn't do them any good, does it?

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No, James NEVER spoke of any demon's "faith". Apparently you haven't "seen" James 2:19 either.

You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

The demons believe because they have EXPERIENCED the fact that God is One. They were all created by Him and lived with Him until they rebelled and joined in with Satan's rebellion.

I believe that 1 + 1 = 2 because I have EXPERIENCED the fact. I believe that when I flip a wall switch a light will turn on because I have EXPERIENCED that.

Faith is a different matter altogether. It's believing something that you haven't experienced.

Like driving across a bridge. Unless you have previously driven across it and it held you up, you only EXPECT it to do it again. You drive over it on the basis of faith.

What did Jesus Himself say about what kind of faith He expected people to have in Him?

Matthew 10:37 Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.

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What makes you think Jesus was even talking about salvation faith here? He was talking about discipleship. Do you understand the difference?

Jesus made it very clear that you must love Him more than anyone or anything and make Him the Lord of your life in order to be worthy of Him. Do you agree with that?

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Please show me any verse where Jesus demanded "loving Him more than anyone" in order to be saved. Jesus did speak of trust in Him for salvation. As I just showed above.

Jesus made it very clear that you must be willing to give up your life for Him in order to be saved and be worthy of Him. Do you agree with that?

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No, of course not. You must show me any verse that says that salvation is based on being "willing to give up your life" for Him.

I've just given you 23 verses that tell us EXACTLY what leads to salvation/eternal life.

Where are your verses that say what you believe?

ImAllLikeOkWaitWat said:

People act according to their belief. The problem is people generally don't believe in something 100% and if they do then it's probably not belief but knowledge at that point.

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Not even knowledge, but "social assent," which isn't even "mental assent," but it's what most Westerns who call themselves Christian are actually doing.

FreeGrace2 said:

Please don't miss the critical point. Only when the believer has been cleansed from on-going sins (1 John 1:9), and IS filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:28) and walking by means of the Spirit (Gal 5:16) rather than grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching (21 Thess 5:19) the Spirit, the Spirit doesn't lead.

The believer must be in fellowship before the Spirit will lead.

I wonder how many belevers even understand this.

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That doesn't make any sense.

"...when the believer has been cleansed." You realize, don't you, that grammar is perfect tense, passive voice. The believer is not doing the cleansing, Someone Else is doing the cleansing. Who do you think that Someone Else is? Mister Clean?

Please don't miss the critical point. Only when the believer has been cleansed from on-going sins (1 John 1:9), and IS filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:28) and walking by means of the Spirit (Gal 5:16) rather than grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching (21 Thess 5:19) the Spirit, the Spirit doesn't lead.

The believer must be in fellowship before the Spirit will lead.

I wonder how many belevers even understand this.

Spiritual Jew said:

How long do you think this process takes?

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How many sins do you need to confess when you finally get around to it? It's always best to "keep short accounts" and confess the moment you realize you've sinned.

Then, what is the best way to submit to the Holy Spirit? How about simply asking to be filled, since it is a command in Eph 5:18. So, how long does it take you to get to the point in your own prayers.

Now, add up these 2 things, and you'll have your answer as to "how long" the process takes.

We receive the Spirit immediately upon salvation and He immediately spurs us on to good works at that point.

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Where does the Bible say that He "immediately spurs us on"? He sure didn't Simon the sorcerer. Please cite or quote the verse that informs you on this.

Was that not your experience? You're not making any sense to me.

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That's why I said this:
"I wonder how many belevers even understand this."

[/QUOT]I'm not saying we become fully mature Christians immediately upon salvation, but I am saying that the Holy Spirit begins working on us immediately upon salvation. Do you disagree with that?[/QUOTE]
I've been clear. The believer must be cleansed of on-going sins by confession of them and then submit to the Spirit in order to be filled.

If you still don't understand what I'm saying and the verses I've cited, you need to ask your pastor WHY he has failed to teach these very basic principles.

Please explain to me as specifically as you can what you think a person needs to do to be saved.

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They need to believe that Jesus is God's Son. They need to believe that they are sinners in need of salvation. They need to believe that Jesus died on the cross for their sins and paid their sin debt. And they need to trust that Jesus does save those who trust Him for it.

Describe the kind of faith you believe someone needs to be saved.

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See above.

Are you saying that mental assent alone is enough?

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See above.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Please don't miss the critical point. Only when the believer has been cleansed from on-going sins (1 John 1:9), and IS filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:28) and walking by means of the Spirit (Gal 5:16) rather than grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching (21 Thess 5:19) the Spirit, the Spirit doesn't lead.

The believer must be in fellowship before the Spirit will lead.

I wonder how many belevers even understand this.

RDKirk said:

That doesn't make any sense.

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Hence, my last sentence above. Not that many believers understand the spiritual life.

A lot of pastors have failed to edify their congregations.

"...when the believer has been cleansed." You realize, don't you, that grammar is perfect tense, passive voice. The believer is not doing the cleansing, Someone Else is doing the cleansing. Who do you think that Someone Else is? Mister Clean?

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What a silly question. It's very clear in 1 John 1 that God is the Cleanser.

What was the point of your question? What are you trying to point out?

FreeGrace2 said:

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
It isn't what a person SAYS that counts. It's what a person BELIEVES that counts.

So that's what you take away from what i wrote?? What do you think "believe" means anyway?

Do you understand what "mental assent" means? It's thrown around a lot. What does that mean?

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Since you are terrible at making yourself clear, I can only go by what you say. Mental assent just means to believe in Jesus the same way that the demons believe in God. It's just believing in His existence but not believing in Him as your Lord and your God. Mormons believe in Jesus. Are they saved?

Well, how much Scripure have you seen?

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All of it. Every verse. You seem to ignore or overlook the part of scripture which explains what faith in Christ means.

Here is what Scripture DOES teach about having salvation/eternal life. In case you haven't "seen" it.

Salvation:

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know
him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Did you notice what word tied all these verses together?

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Yes, but what does it mean to believe in Jesus? Is it no different than believing in the existence of heaven? Does everyone who believes in the existence of heaven end up going there?

No, James NEVER spoke of any demon's "faith". Apparently you haven't "seen" James 2:19 either.

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Did he not mention that they believe in God? Yes, he did. Stop being ridiculous.

You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

The demons believe because they have EXPERIENCED the fact that God is One. They were all created by Him and lived with Him until they rebelled and joined in with Satan's rebellion.

I believe that 1 + 1 = 2 because I have EXPERIENCED the fact. I believe that when I flip a wall switch a light will turn on because I have EXPERIENCED that.

Faith is a different matter altogether.

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Okay, maybe now you are finally getting around to explaining what you think faith means. It's about time.

It's believing something that you haven't experienced.

Like driving across a bridge. Unless you have previously driven across it and it held you up, you only EXPECT it to do it again. You drive over it on the basis of faith.


What makes you think Jesus was even talking about salvation faith here? He was talking about discipleship. Do you understand the difference?

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Are you kidding here? What kind of faith do you have if it isn't such that you are willing to give your life for Him?

Do you disregard what James taught? I don't. He was inspired by God every bit as much as Paul and the rest of the authors of the Bible. James said that faith without works is dead. You say that faith without works is not dead. I'm going to side with James. The kind of faith that saves is the kind of faith that will lead to good works because it's the kind of faith that says Jesus is your Lord and you want to serve Him, which the Holy Spirit gives you the ability to do.

Please show me any verse where Jesus demanded "loving Him more than anyone" in order to be saved. Jesus did speak of trust in Him for salvation. As I just showed above.

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I already showed you. Is there something different between being saved and being worthy of Him? Of course not. When you read Romans 10:9-10 do you somehow miss the part about confessing Jesus as Lord as being a requirement for salvation?

No, of course not. You must show me any verse that says that salvation is based on being "willing to give up your life" for Him.

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I already did. Being considered worth of Him is equivalent to being saved. Do you think that someone who is not found worthy of Him can be saved? If you think so, you are fooling yourself.