Salvation by faith alone is a mistake. Repentance is necessary

Arc F1 · Nov 10, 2020

mikeforjesus said:
The gospel will not change despite the stumbling blocks if people do not repent and persevere or receive the mark of the beast they will go to hell for eternity. We can not compromise the gospel. I know there are many stumbling blocks. And I thought I could have caused some but I am not going to look back. I don’t think I am responsible. People have enough understanding to know that those who killed themselves did not really care to be saved. If they never knew it was unforgivable God wouldn’t judge but I don’t think He lets anyone not have ability to know the truth which they didn’t want to know. But even if they listened to those who taught them they will not go to hell yet they will always know that that could not be true and they will be convicted it could not be true and they didn’t want to seek the truth so they have no excuse they did not care for the truth. I don’t think God will let anyone not know the way they are supposed to walk in people are not left without knowledge about what is right which one never completely doubts for himself but he tries to explore if others can be saved but he can not prove it so he still knows himself. Thus people are not with excuse because they all know still right from wrong and those who let their sins stop them from following God are allowing satan to destroy them. Even if I deceived others which I did not do intentionally they are still not without fault because they could know the truth but they don’t want it and to believe lies. I won’t let myself feel guilty of total responsibility and let that stop me from pursuing Christ

Everyone had a free choice whether to desire an eternity with Jesus to obey Him whether others chose not to follow Jesus for any reason or not. You can’t use love of others as an excuse because they all know they needed to choose Jesus. I don’t think salvation is by faith alone but those who taught it and works are an evidence of salvation may be saved for they may have worked or if that is true. I don’t know if that is a false teaching that disqualifies one from salvation if one has works but people should teach the truth that you need works. I know I teached false teaching may not disqualify one if one has works but I don’t know. It may be you have to teach the truth maybe only if you absolutely know works are important. I do not believe God will require one to join a church as I believe it is about one choice if he wants to follow Jesus or not and one can not know which is true church or if it is true and fair to others

You can't have faith and not do good works and follow God's law. If you have faith you will do all that is required. Anything less and you don't really have faith and you are only fooling yourself.

Arc F1 · Nov 10, 2020

mikeforjesus said:
I would prefer to believe obedience is only necessary for rewards and that God can give second chances to people who believed if God knows they would have repented after death if some memories are erased. So that those who believe now if they would repent after death they can be saved. Perhaps God knows the heart of people whether their turning away from the truth is their true heart and they never really loved Jesus or they would continue to believe atleast or they would have tried to if there we’re no stumbling blocks. So there is hope maybe some who did not persevere is saved if maybe their heart was good. But I don’t know that we have to assume you have to persevere and one needs to complete the Christian walk because if people have to stop themselves from receiving the mark of the beast we may need to persevere

A year ago I lost a brother to suicide. I've been struggling with what his fate will be. Everything points to what I don't want to hear but have to accept.

Arc F1 · Nov 10, 2020

d taylor said:
My conclusion is that people who believe, in a faith plus good works receiving of eternal life are placing themselves at the great white throne judgment. To see if their good works were enough to prove their faith is true. If that is the case, it seems then your faith is no different than an atheist, muslim, buddhist, etc....

How can you have faith and not follow what is written? It's not that the works somehow help you its that they will happen if you have faith. Does that make sense?

I have faith and I truly believe. I will do good works towards others because it's expected of me by scripture.

mikeforjesus · Nov 10, 2020

One could have some faith that works are required but not be absolutely sure it is true one can believe different false Christian teachings but one still believes in it and it will be risky to preach otherwise and the scripture seems to teach so. He can believe in it but yet wish to deny it
the more faith you have the more you will be encouraged to work but I suppose even if one has full faith he can still be lazy how do you know for sure he will not be if the way to heaven is not guaranteed to be known to one who is lazy but has full faith. I think he is guaranteed to find it if he is not lazy for God will reveal the way to him through prayer and His word

Arc F1 · Nov 10, 2020

mikeforjesus said:
the more faith you have the more you will be encouraged to work but I suppose even if one has full faith he can still be lazy how do you know for sure he will not be if the way to heaven is not guaranteed to be known to one who is lazy but has full faith. I think he is guaranteed to find it if he is not lazy for God will reveal the way to him through prayer and His word

I've had these faith only discussions several times and even though the bible says that you are saved by faith you can't get past doing good works. The works may not count but being a good Samaritan is required. I don't think on judgment day we will get away with saying "well technically". I'm not saying anything except "yes sir" to God. Im just a servant, nothing more nothing less.

d taylor · Nov 10, 2020

GDL said:
How about the command to abide - think that's important for eternal life? Rhetorical question, I already know you don't.

The facts are that you don't know what genuine Faith means and includes, and that you are pushing a false gospel that requires nothing of a person but a false professed faith, disassociated from obeying the Highest Authority you say you believe in.

I've many acquaintances who believe (to varying degrees) what you do, who seem to me to have become very devout Christians. Nevertheless, I've seen many, more remain in at best an infancy, and at worst may not be saved, because they continue to live like pagans, while professing to know God.

NKJ Titus 1:16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

"abominable" can also be translated as "disgusting." And then there's that word "disobedient" (vs. obedience) cropping up again.

You're proclaiming a gospel that leads many to believe they can be disgusting and go to Heaven when they die because they so-called "believed." Wearing a piece of jewelry, large or small, does not equate to genuine Faith.

By the way, you know I've challenged you before. Will you prove with Scripture that I'm misapplying the "command of obedience"? Another rhetorical question.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

A believer the moment they trust in The Messiah for Eternal Life, they cross over from death to life.

The verse does not say will come into Eternal Life after they believe and prove their belief is true by a life of obedience

d taylor · Nov 10, 2020

Arc F1 said:
How can you have faith and not follow what is written? It's not that the works somehow help you its that they will happen if you have faith. Does that make sense?

I have faith and I truly believe. I will do good works towards others because it's expected of me by scripture.

What if the believer is an apathetic believer, or a lazy believer. God expects believers to do good and follow The Messiah. But it is not required to receive Eternal Life.

All believers just do not automatically become these great christian believers. Working for God requires discipline and many believers just do not develop their discipline strong enough to over come many of the worlds distractions.

Arc F1 · Nov 11, 2020

d taylor said:
What if the believer is an apathetic believer, or a lazy believer. God expects believers to do good and follow The Messiah. But it is not required to receive Eternal Life.

All believers just do not automatically become these great christian believers. Working for God requires discipline and many believers just do not develop their discipline strong enough to over come many of the worlds distractions.

For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.
Matthew 16:27 NKJV

d taylor · Nov 11, 2020

Arc F1 said:
For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.
Matthew 16:27 NKJV

Ok Jesus will reward believers (who survive the tribulation) at the beginning (?) of the millennium for what they did during the tribulation.

GDL · Nov 12, 2020

d taylor said:
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

A believer the moment they trust in The Messiah for Eternal Life, they cross over from death to life.

The verse does not say will come into Eternal Life after they believe and prove their belief is true by a life of obedience

Abiding for Eternal Life:

NKJ 1 John 2:22-25 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 24 Therefore let that abide (command) in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us-- eternal life.

- To have eternal life we must obey God’s command to abide/remain in the belief that Jesus is the Christ

- To deny abiding/continuing belief that Jesus is the Christ is antichrist & lying

NKJ 1 John 2:22-29 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

NKJ 1 John 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

- To have life, we must have the Son of God & the Father, which means we must never deny that Jesus is the Christ (which means we must continually obey God’s command to abide/remain in the belief that Jesus is the Christ per 1 John 2:24)

NKJ John 6:53-56 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

NKJ John 15:10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

- To have eternal life we must abide/remain in Jesus Christ, which means we must obey Jesus Christ as He obeyed our Father

NKJ 1 John 3:23-24 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

NKJ 1 John 2:22-25 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 24 Therefore let that abide (command) in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us-- eternal life.

- God commands that we believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ

- God commands that we love one another as we were commanded

- If we keep/guard/obey God’s commandments, then we abide/remain in Him & He in us

- If we obey God’s commandment to abide/remain in belief that Jesus is the Christ, then we abide/remain in the Son of God – Jesus the Christ – and we will remain/abide in God the Father

- To have eternal life as God promised, we must:

- Obey God’s commandment to believe that Jesus is the Christ

- Continue to obey God’s commandment to believe that Jesus is the Christ

- Keep/Guard/Obey God’s commandments, which is to love God and one another as God commands (1 John 4:21; 5:2-3)

As a bonus to all this instruction we have from our Text, when we believe on the name of God’s Son Jesus Christ, we simultaneously obey God’s command to believe on the name of God’s Son Jesus Christ. Biblical Faith is Faith/Obedience.

If you take these lessons back to John 5:24, you may get a better understanding of what Jesus was saying there.

You’re hanging on to & promoting a false gospel that’s based upon a limited use of Scripture. You do not understand what it means to believe that Jesus is the Christ. I wonder if you even know what the title “Christ” indicates. If you did, then you’d understand the importance of abiding Faith/Obedience for eternal life.

GDL · Nov 12, 2020

d taylor said:
God expects believers to do good and follow The Messiah. But it is not required to receive Eternal Life

This is false teaching.

Even one of your mainstay verses says differently:

NKJ John 10:27-28 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

- Hearing Jesus voice & following Him & being known by Him are prerequisites to being given eternal life.

- Continual hearing of His voice & following Him are included in this as can clearly be seen in the "abiding" instructions from our Text, some of which I've posted in #70 above.

d taylor · Nov 12, 2020

GDL said:
Abiding for Eternal Life:

NKJ 1 John 2:22-25 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 24 Therefore let that abide (command) in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us-- eternal life.

- To have eternal life we must obey God’s command to abide/remain in the belief that Jesus is the Christ

- To deny abiding/continuing belief that Jesus is the Christ is antichrist & lying

NKJ 1 John 2:22-29 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

NKJ 1 John 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

- To have life, we must have the Son of God & the Father, which means we must never deny that Jesus is the Christ (which means we must continually obey God’s command to abide/remain in the belief that Jesus is the Christ per 1 John 2:24)

NKJ John 6:53-56 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

NKJ John 15:10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

- To have eternal life we must abide/remain in Jesus Christ, which means we must obey Jesus Christ as He obeyed our Father

NKJ 1 John 3:23-24 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

NKJ 1 John 2:22-25 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 24 Therefore let that abide (command) in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us-- eternal life.

- God commands that we believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ

- God commands that we love one another as we were commanded

- If we keep/guard/obey God’s commandments, then we abide/remain in Him & He in us

- If we obey God’s commandment to abide/remain in belief that Jesus is the Christ, then we abide/remain in the Son of God – Jesus the Christ – and we will remain/abide in God the Father

- To have eternal life as God promised, we must:

- Obey God’s commandment to believe that Jesus is the Christ

- Continue to obey God’s commandment to believe that Jesus is the Christ

- Keep/Guard/Obey God’s commandments, which is to love God and one another as God commands (1 John 4:21; 5:2-3)

As a bonus to all this instruction we have from our Text, when we believe on the name of God’s Son Jesus Christ, we simultaneously obey God’s command to believe on the name of God’s Son Jesus Christ. Biblical Faith is Faith/Obedience.

If you take these lessons back to John 5:24, you may get a better understanding of what Jesus was saying there.

You’re hanging on to & promoting a false gospel that’s based upon a limited use of Scripture. You do not understand what it means to believe that Jesus is the Christ. I wonder if you even know what the title “Christ” indicates. If you did, then you’d understand the importance of abiding Faith/Obedience for eternal life.

Obviously you do not believe that Eternal Life is a free gift from God to those who believe in The Messiah for Life.

It also looks like you are not even abiding in The Messiah believing the false teachings of obedience salvation.

d taylor · Nov 12, 2020

GDL said:
This is false teaching.

Even one of your mainstay verses says differently:

NKJ John 10:27-28 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

- Hearing Jesus voice & following Him & being known by Him are prerequisites to being given eternal life.

- Continual hearing of His voice & following Him are included in this as can clearly be seen in the "abiding" instructions from our Text, some of which I've posted in #70 above.

So it is stated that Jews can not receive Eternal Life by the law God gave them. And that would be the only obedience a Jew would think, that will give them Eternal Life, obedience to the law.

knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

But then gentiles are required to work obedience to receive Eternal Life and not receive Eternal Life by faith like the Jews are.

And to make your case, you redefine faith to not mean that a person believes (conviction this promise is true) Gods promise of the Free Gift of Eternal Life when they believe in The Messiahs for Eternal Life. But to mean that you need to bring in another word added to faith, true.

So true faith is not actually asset to Gods promise, but actually is an obedience to God, the obedience makes the faith true.

So you say, see i am a true believer because see my many works of obedience i am doing, that means i really believe. So in reality, God will owe you Eternal Life because you have been obedient, you are exchanging obedience for Eternal Life.

mlepfitjw · Nov 13, 2020

mikeforjesus said:
The gospel will not change despite the stumbling blocks if people do not repent and persevere or receive the mark of the beast they will go to hell for eternity. We can not compromise the gospel. I know there are many stumbling blocks. And I thought I could have caused some but I am not going to look back. I don’t think I am responsible. People have enough understanding to know that those who killed themselves did not really care to be saved. If they never knew it was unforgivable God wouldn’t judge but I don’t think He lets anyone not have ability to know the truth which they didn’t want to know. But even if they listened to those who taught them they will not go to hell yet they will always know that that could not be true and they will be convicted it could not be true and they didn’t want to seek the truth so they have no excuse they did not care for the truth. I don’t think God will let anyone not know the way they are supposed to walk in people are not left without knowledge about what is right which one never completely doubts for himself but he tries to explore if others can be saved but he can not prove it so he still knows himself. Thus people are not with excuse because they all know still right from wrong and those who let their sins stop them from following God are allowing satan to destroy them. Even if I deceived others which I did not do intentionally they are still not without fault because they could know the truth but they don’t want it and to believe lies. I won’t let myself feel guilty of total responsibility and let that stop me from pursuing Christ

Everyone had a free choice whether to desire an eternity with Jesus to obey Him whether others chose not to follow Jesus for any reason or not. You can’t use love of others as an excuse because they all know they needed to choose Jesus. I don’t think salvation is by faith alone but those who taught it and works are an evidence of salvation may be saved for they may have worked or if that is true. I don’t know if that is a false teaching that disqualifies one from salvation if one has works but people should teach the truth that you need works. I know I teached false teaching may not disqualify one if one has works but I don’t know. It may be you have to teach the truth maybe only if you absolutely know works are important. I do not believe God will require one to join a church as I believe it is about one choice if he wants to follow Jesus or not and one can not know which is true church or if it is true and fair to others

oof... people who killed them selves did not care to be saved.

I would argue with the statement of - people who kill themselves are in a lot more distress than on could ever imagine or experience when it comes the dealing with this world ... the people in and whatever hardship and experiences they are going through.

there have been Christians who have killed them selves as believers. Sometimes I suffer with not even wanting to be here and I’m a believer ... it’s called suffering and the ones who do it don’t see no other way out besides that way.

And I’m not trying to tell anyone to kill themselves. Just to be clear.

mikeforjesus · Nov 13, 2020

Well if they have no ability to control themselves then they can be saved if they saw if they thought they may go to hell and they did not try to search a way out and there was and they searched but they did not find and they tried to endure but felt they could not we can not know it is forgiven or not but it could be so I suppose we should not judge because for them there may have not been a way out as when there is those who search find. If they don’t want to endure their life because they don’t want to take up their cross and accept God judgement of what is required to go to heaven it is not an excuse. I think God makes people who are required to endure know what is required and it is required for all to seek to know the truth to be open to hear and accept what is convincing to them

mikeforjesus · Nov 13, 2020

I repent of all false teachings. Jesus said you must be born again to enter the kingdom. And strive to enter by the narrow gate for many I say to you will seek to enter and will not be able. You can tell him who is born again by his fruits that’s how you know them. Jesus said the wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit. People know the way of life it is up to them to choose it or not.

To be born again as Jesus teaches seems to be living a new life as the proverbs says turn at my rebuke I will surely make my words known to you.

In proverbs Jesus says if you don’t listen to wisdom you will seek Him diligently and not find Him.

Thus it also says those who do not listen to instruction will die for lack of instruction

mikeforjesus · Nov 16, 2020

I am not a faithful servant if I don’t teach the true words of God. Jesus said I did not come to bring peace on earth but division between those who repent and want the truth to believe and follow His commandments and those who do not between those who truly follow God and those who do not. It is true we can not judge people who maybe were never in their right mind or lost their mind and not capable of receiving instruction and changing or given the chance to who may be saved if their heart is good. God can give different assignments to people and some people may get their proper chance in another world. But those given the chance to know God will are required to do it. Jesus said His flock would be little. It is only right to assume those who are able to comprehend that it seems you need works are required to do works and we have to assume it is necessary to teach you need works because they know it may be possible works are required. It could be others are saved if they have works and do not deny Him but we don’t know. We have to assume you need to teach works are necessary. Like in the parable of the virgins the wise had the oil because they followed the bible themselves and probably sought help with scripture from others as they told others to buy the oil from those who sell. So people have to have their own relationship with the bible and they can hear what churches teach them as long as they do not know they are contradicting the bible. People who will not read the bible and go to church to learn how they interpret them should make sure from other godly people that teach that make sense to them what they need to do to do it to encourage them. But it is principally one relationship with the bible and Jesus that gives salvation.

We have to assume you need to teach works are important though it could be if you follow the bible and do not deny Him you can be saved but we don’t know so people should teach you need to teach works are important because it could be necessary we only know those who teach it are following God as Jesus said fear not little flock meaning His flock is little because only they are following the truth and obeying His commandments. He is saying they don’t need to fear if they cling to Him it is His pleasure to give them the kingdom if they obey Him but they should flock together to encourage one another it may be necessary for some if they are not understanding and following the word properly or they may be able to understand on their own if they seek understanding but it will be an encouragement. He is faithful to be with them if they strive and will never leave them because of a sin but they still have to strive to make sure. But perhaps we don’t earn salvation but because we have true faith and are repentant we will want to do works and we do what we know we have to do. As everything is from Him. He is the one who instructs one so if He told you to do something and you don’t do exactly what He says you are not obedient. You don’t do things by your own strength but as you seek Him He will show you what you must do so you don’t do what you think you need to do but do the works He prepared for you to follow and gives you the ability to do it and is therefore the author of your salvation

When it says go to those who sell this is only if you have problem understanding a part in the bible which you may listen to a traditional church if their explanation can not be proven wrong or how they interpret it or you may listen to other Christians who follow the bible well.

GDL · Nov 16, 2020

d taylor said:
Obviously you do not believe that Eternal Life is a free gift from God to those who believe in The Messiah for Life.

It also looks like you are not even abiding in The Messiah believing the false teachings of obedience salvation

Obviously:

- Salvation is a gift
- As part of the gift, God is working in us to will & do what pleases Him
- There are things we who receive the gift are commanded to do with it as God works in us
- You are attempting to negate the fact that we must obey our Lord & our Father & therefore are pushing a false gospel that maintains the status-quo of disobedience to our Creator
- You cannot interact with multiple Scriptures presented to you re: abiding & eternal life
- You are, at best, in infancy in your faith, but with your gospel, who knows...

mikeforjesus · Apr 8, 2021

Some say if you think you have to do works you are not a true Christian because Jesus said it is done it is not true you are not a Christian but you may not have knowledge about why He saved you it is not about earning salvation but true saving faith is demonstrated by a new life living for Christ if you have been saved and changed you will live for Christ

Salvation by faith alone is a mistake. Repentance is necessary

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