Darkness Shall Cover the Land and the Earth Quake at the Coming of the Day of the LORD

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,316
568
56
Mount Morris
✟124,857.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.

The Capital "C" Church as we use the word today is not found in the entire Book of Revelation.
Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.


PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_23.pdf


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf.
Revelation 12:11 is the here and now, not 1 second after the Second Coming.

10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven saying,
“Now have come God’s victory, power and kingship,
and the authority of his Messiah;
because the Accuser of our brothers,
who accuses them day and night before God,
has been thrown out!

11 “They defeated him because of the Lamb’s blood
and because of the message of their witness.
Even when facing death
they did not cling to life.

The Adversary has been defeated each and every day and night for the last 1990 years, that is what the verse says.

I am not the one claiming Satan has been bound for 1990 years. How can it be night and day, if Satan has not been in Heaven until the 7th Trumpet? Are you saying the Blood has not worked for 1990 years, but will start working at the 7th Trumpet? Satan has been in heaven night and day for 1990 years and every night and every day the Blood of The Lamb worked properly and defeated the false accusations of Satan. That is the only way the church has defeated Satan, not by being bound. To claim Satan has been bound is to deny the very night and day application this verse clearly states. They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb. It does not say they overcame him, because he was not truly in heaven, but bound up in sheol. Can you see the difference? How can Satan be tossed out of heaven in 30AD when the 7th Trumpet has not sounded yet? How can Satan be the Adversary night and day for 1990 years in heaven, if bound in sheol during the same 1990 years? The church has not been waiting to overcome Satan at the 7th Trumpet, either. Many in the church live lives undefeated by Satan, when they pleed the blood of Christ.
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
How can it be night and day, if Satan has not been in Heaven until the 7th Trumpet?


Satan was cast out of heaven long ago.

Do you actually think Satan is now in heaven with God, and Christ, and the souls of our dead Brothers and Sisters?

God does not allow sin to remain in His presence.

This planet is now Satan's prison.

2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


.
 
Upvote 0

swainkas

Swainson, author of Heresy
Nov 20, 2013
138
31
57
Houston
Visit site
✟50,202.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Satan was cast out of heaven long ago.

Do you actually think Satan is now in heaven with God, and Christ, and the souls of our dead Brothers and Sisters?

God does not allow sin to remain in His presence.

This planet is now Satan's prison.

2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


.


Another verse documenting Satan cast out of heaven.

Now the seventy-two returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name!”And He said to them, “I watched Satan fall from heaven like lightning. - Luke 10:17-18 NASB
 
  • Winner
Reactions: BABerean2
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,316
568
56
Mount Morris
✟124,857.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Satan was cast out of heaven long ago.

Do you actually think Satan is now in heaven with God, and Christ, and the souls of our dead Brothers and Sisters?

God does not allow sin to remain in His presence.

This planet is now Satan's prison.

2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Satan does not live in heaven. Who claims that? Satan is the accuser day and night until the 7th Trumpet. That is what John says in Revelation, not me. Satan is not bound, but walks around as a roaring lion. Peter wrote that, not me. No other letter to the churches, after Jesus ascended to heaven claims Satan is bound, and John in his claim, says it is after the Second Coming.

Satan can hardly be said to have the same fate as those who followed him. Satan may have caused them to rebel, but Satan is not part of that group. They have never been loosed, until perhaps the pit is opened at the 5th Trumpet. Satan would not have messed with Job, if that were the case. Is Job a prophecy of a future event? Or was that a long chain? Some people really have to jury rig a lot of Scripture to prove their point. Sorry but using those verses that way is taking them out of context, to prove a point. Next you will be calling Satan a spirit instead of an angel to prove another point. You have to recap something in Revelation about Satan, no?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,316
568
56
Mount Morris
✟124,857.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Another verse documenting Satan cast out of heaven.

Now the seventy-two returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name!”And He said to them, “I watched Satan fall from heaven like lightning. - Luke 10:17-18 NASB
It happens night and day, but Satan is insane, because he does the same thing over and over and even knows how it all ends. He can read Revelation 20. He probably even takes it literally as opposed to Amil. I am sure Satan knows he is not bound. Falling like lightning every day and every night is hardly being bound.
 
Upvote 0

chad kincham

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
2,773
1,005
✟62,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20).

Jesus is Yahweh, too.

A great proof of this is Genesis 18 and 19, where in 18:1, YHWH appears to Abraham as one of three men.

Abraham washes His feet, converses with Him, and negotiates with Him to save Sodom from destruction.

There weren’t enough righteous left in Sodom. so the YHWH in the form of a man that Abraham talked with, destroys Sodom, and in the Hebrew text in chapter 19, it says YHWH rained down fire and brimstone on Sodom, from YHWH in heaven.

The Yahweh on earth in the form of a man, is Jesus, the only YHWH that exists in the form of a man, who transcends time, since He made time along with the space/time continuum, and can control it.

Also I picked one of your proof texts at random, to see what scholarship says about Isaiah 13:9-16:

The day of the LORD comes: Isaiah now speaks in the “prophetic tense,” having in mind both a near fulfillment (the day of judgment against the Babylonian Empire), and an ultimate fulfillment (the final day of judgment at the return of Jesus).

i. The day of the LORD is an important phrase, used some 26 times in the Bible. It speaks of not a single day of judgment, but of the season of judgment when the LORD sets things right. It is as if today is man’s day, but the LORD’s day is coming!

b. The stars of heaven and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be darkened: Several prophetic passages describe the cosmic disturbances that will precede and surround the return of Jesus (Joe 2:10, Rev 6:12-14, Isa 34:4). In fact, Jesus was probably quoting or paraphrasing this passage from Isaiah in Mat 24:29: Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

i. In the near fulfillment of the judgment of Babylon, they felt like the whole world was coming apart. In the ultimate fulfillment connected with the return of Jesus, the whole world will be falling apart.

c. I will punish the world for its evil: This prophetic identification of Babylon with the world, ripe for ultimate judgment, is consistent through the Scriptures. We aren’t surprised that Isaiah has prophetically combined the vision of Babylon’s judgment with the judgment of the whole world for its evil.

You fail to understand that bible prophecy has a dual fulfillment - a foreshadow fulfillment, and the literal fulfillment.

Shalom.
 
Upvote 0

chad kincham

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
2,773
1,005
✟62,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The second coming is in the 6th seal. The total eclipse is the brightness of God on the throne. No need for the sun and moon, because God eclipses them into "nothingness".

I kind of hate to break this to you, but an eclipse blocks the sunlight, and causes darkness.

Shalom.
 
Upvote 0

chad kincham

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
2,773
1,005
✟62,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The Great and terrible day of the LORD had come.
/QUOTE]

Thanks for your comments. I think we as Christians are guilty of not appreciating Christ's first coming enough. I mean that God Almighty, who is outside of time and space, came into time and space for a short period of time. He then allowed His own creation to slap His face, spit on Him, whip Him and crucify Him. And He did all this to take the sin of mankind on His shoulders and to judge the world and Satan for their sins.

Yes, the great and terrible day of the Lord has come. All the earthquakes and famines and wars and bloodshed to come do not equate to one stripe on His back. I wish we would truly appreciate this as Christians.

Except...

THE DAY OF THE LORD

Matthew 25:1 gives the account of Jesus’ wedding supper, and in verse 13 let’s us know that His wedding includes His second coming.


That establishes that His return includes the wedding supper.


Revelation 19:6 is the wedding supper, followed immediately by His return in verse 11, wherein He judges and makes war and He does this:


Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


He uses the sword in the above text:


Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which swordproceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


Thus at His second coming, He makes war, and brings a sword, God’s fierceness and wrath, and smites the nations.


In 2Thessalonians 1:7-10

Under the chapter titled ‘The Judgment at Christ's Coming’ Jesus returns with flaming fire, and takes vengeance on evil doers.


In the next chapter - unless you believe Paul jumps topics - he equates the day of the Lord with the second coming of Jesus, in 2Thessalonians 2:1-2.


The Day of the Lord comes in Zechariah 14:1-2 as Jerusalem is being attacked and destroyed by armies of many nations - and Jesus returns in verses 3-5 and ends up destroying those armies.


In Isaiah 13:6 the Day of the Lord comes with destruction from the almighty...


with wrath and fierce anger, destroying sinners vs. 9...


and punishes the world for evil and the wicked for their sins vs. 11...


Jesus does the same things at His second coming that occur in the Day of the Lord, and Zechariah 14 and 2Thessalonians 2 put the second coming of Jesus, and the Day of the Lord together.
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No other letter to the churches, after Jesus ascended to heaven claims Satan is bound, and John in his claim, says it is after the Second Coming.


Mat 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
Mat 12:27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Mat 12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.


Can you explain why an angel comes down from heaven with a key to unlock the bottomless pit in Revelation 9:1-2, if it was not locked previously?


Since the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order, your claim about John above is based on your words, instead of his.


.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Site Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,534
4,827
57
Oregon
✟797,654.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
You fail to understand that bible prophecy has a dual fulfillment - a foreshadow fulfillment, and the literal fulfillment.

Shalom.

Is this your position concerning ALL prophecy? Can I assume that you believe there will be a future redemption of man through some future sacrifice? In other words, your thought here opens the door for a future Calvary. Perhaps the establishment of a new Church. Another virgin birth?

I have to ask: Where does the bible teach that? Quite simply, it doesn't. That position is entirely unbiblical, and has no root in apostolic belief or teaching (scripture). It is an allegory invented by later futurists, but was unknown to the apostles.

I think you, like so many, fail to understand the difference between Old Testament typology (shadows and types) with the realities of Christ and the New Covenant (which are not mere shadows and types).

Let's start with the crucifixion. What recent events look to be the GREATER fulfillment of the calvary event in our bibles? 9/11?? Columbine? Sandy Hook? Some other event coming soon? Abortion? Something has to fit...rule of multiple fulfillments.

Next, let's look at the virgin birth. Perhaps cloning is the greater fulfillment in our times of that shadow provided by Mary and Jesus? Something has to fit your rule of multiple fulfillments, right?

Christ's ministry of miraculous cures. No doubt that modern medicine is the GREATER messiah of our times for which Jesus was a mere shadow. Modern medicine has brought cures for ailments and diseases on a massive scale NEVER before done by anyone including Jesus. Surely you must maintain that Christ's healings were just a type for a far greater healing of the sick in our times?

Do I really need to keep going?

I have fairly applied the logic presented in your post to other important subjects of bible prophecy to illustrate just how inconsistent and absurd a "multiple fulfillments" concept is.

Where you seem to fail to understand is the O.T. theology of Messianic TYPOLOGY. Typology is the biblically supported doctrine wherein the apostles claim that the Mosaic Ministry (Temple, sacrifices, priesthood, etc) were foreshadowings of Jesus Christ. We all should study this important concept and recognize that the pattern ends once the Mosaic System is gone.

Please recognize that the terminus for this TYPOLOGICAL method of understanding the Old Covenant passages arrived 20 centuries ago -- and so to continue turning NEW COVENANT ERA things into mere types and shadows of yet-future-to-us events is not Biblically supported.

Typology is a timebound heremeneutic. Those shadows of the O.T. foretold the story of the Messianic Advent via things familiar to the Jews' way of life. Once Christ is come the shadows are done away (Col 2:16-17). The heavenly things that arrived in Christ's advent are the object for which the types only were shadows (Heb 8:4-5). These heavenly New Covenant things are the final destiny. The Law contained the shadow but not the very image of such great things (Heb 10:1-2). We have the heavenly things now. They have been delivered and they are the END product, not the mere means to some future and better end product. The eternal New Covenant IS the destination. One could say that the entire book of Hebrews, from chapter 1 to chapter 13, argues this exact point. The biblical answer answering this whole question is written down as the book of Hebrews (all).

The shadows are fulfilled in the present, eternal, New Covenant Age that was ushered in during the last days period of the typological Old Testament Age. The New Covenant delivered REALITIES, and not more types and shadows, as appears to be your assertion..

Like many OT types that foreshadowed NT realities, Daniels AoD, even though the Jews understood as fulfilled in Antiochus Epiphenes, Jesus instructs His audience that such OT fulfillment was only typological, and the Antitype was yet future to them....

Luke Extrapolates in the most detail on what/when the disciples would recognize as the fulfillment of the antitype, namely it would be when they saw "Jerusalem surrounded by Armies", and Jesus places further emphasis on the fact that such would be the antitype fulfillment when He instructs them that those would be "the days of vengeance in fulfillment of all things written"

While the apostles understood how OT types and shadows pointed to NT fulfillments, they did not in turn teach that NT fulfillments were types and shadows of some future, greater fulfillments.

Again, Do we await another Virgin Birth, another Crucifixion? another 3rd day rising out of the tomb? Do we await some future, greater sacrifice of Christ?..... then why would we await another "Surrounding of Jerusalem by armies in fulfillment of all things written?"
And why only 2? why not 12? or 20 or 200 more?

Once you open the door to "multiple fulfillment" there can be no terminus.

No, scripture does not allow for it, for again, Christ is not the shadow but the object itself. (Col 2:16-17)
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: swainkas
Upvote 0

chad kincham

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
2,773
1,005
✟62,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Is this your position concerning ALL prophecy? Can I assume that you believe there will be a future redemption of man through some future sacrifice? In other words, your thought here opens the door for a future Calvary. Perhaps the establishment of a new Church. Another virgin birth?

I have to ask: Where does the bible teach that? Quite simply, it doesn't. That position is entirely unbiblical, and has no root in apostolic belief or teaching (scripture). It is an allegory invented by later futurists, but was unknown to the apostles.

I think you, like so many, fail to understand the difference between Old Testament typology (shadows and types) with the realities of Christ and the New Covenant (which are not mere shadows and types).

Let's start with the crucifixion. What recent events look to be the GREATER fulfillment of the calvary event in our bibles? 9/11?? Columbine? Sandy Hook? Some other event coming soon? Abortion? Something has to fit...rule of multiple fulfillments.

Next, let's look at the virgin birth. Perhaps cloning is the greater fulfillment in our times of that shadow provided by Mary and Jesus? Something has to fit your rule of multiple fulfillments, right?

Christ's ministry of miraculous cures. No doubt that modern medicine is the GREATER messiah of our times for which Jesus was a mere shadow. Modern medicine has brought cures for ailments and diseases on a massive scale NEVER before done by anyone including Jesus. Surely you must maintain that Christ's healings were just a type for a far greater healing of the sick in our times?

Do I really need to keep going?

I have fairly applied the logic presented in your post to other important subjects of bible prophecy to illustrate just how inconsistent and absurd a "multiple fulfillments" concept is.

Where you seem to fail to understand is the O.T. theology of Messianic TYPOLOGY. Typology is the biblically supported doctrine wherein the apostles claim that the Mosaic Ministry (Temple, sacrifices, priesthood, etc) were foreshadowings of Jesus Christ. We all should study this important concept and recognize that the pattern ends once the Mosaic System is gone.

Please recognize that the terminus for this TYPOLOGICAL method of understanding the Old Covenant passages arrived 20 centuries ago -- and so to continue turning NEW COVENANT ERA things into mere types and shadows of yet-future-to-us events is not Biblically supported.

Typology is a timebound heremeneutic. Those shadows of the O.T. foretold the story of the Messianic Advent via things familiar to the Jews' way of life. Once Christ is come the shadows are done away (Col 2:16-17). The heavenly things that arrived in Christ's advent are the object for which the types only were shadows (Heb 8:4-5). These heavenly New Covenant things are the final destiny. The Law contained the shadow but not the very image of such great things (Heb 10:1-2). We have the heavenly things now. They have been delivered and they are the END product, not the mere means to some future and better end product. The eternal New Covenant IS the destination. One could say that the entire book of Hebrews, from chapter 1 to chapter 13, argues this exact point. The biblical answer answering this whole question is written down as the book of Hebrews (all).

The shadows are fulfilled in the present, eternal, New Covenant Age that was ushered in during the last days period of the typological Old Testament Age. The New Covenant delivered REALITIES, and not more types and shadows, as appears to be your assertion..

Like many OT types that foreshadowed NT realities, Daniels AoD, even though the Jews understood as fulfilled in Antiochus Epiphenes, Jesus instructs His audience that such OT fulfillment was only typological, and the Antitype was yet future to them....

Luke Extrapolates in the most detail on what/when the disciples would recognize as the fulfillment of the antitype, namely it would be when they saw "Jerusalem surrounded by Armies", and Jesus places further emphasis on the fact that such would be the antitype fulfillment when He instructs them that those would be "the days of vengeance in fulfillment of all things written"

While the apostles understood how OT types and shadows pointed to NT fulfillments, they did not in turn teach that NT fulfillments were types and shadows of some future, greater fulfillments.

Again, Do we await another Virgin Birth, another Crucifixion? another 3rd day rising out of the tomb? Do we await some future, greater sacrifice of Christ?..... then why would we await another "Surrounding of Jerusalem by armies in fulfillment of all things written?"
And why only 2? why not 12? or 20 or 200 more?

Once you open the door to "multiple fulfillment" there can be no terminus.

No, scripture does not allow for it, for again, Christ is not the shadow but the object itself. (Col 2:16-17)
 
  • Agree
Reactions: parousia70
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,316
568
56
Mount Morris
✟124,857.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Mat 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
Mat 12:27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Mat 12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.


Can you explain why an angel comes down from heaven with a key to unlock the bottomless pit in Revelation 9:1-2, if it was not locked previously?


Since the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order, your claim about John above is based on your words, instead of his.
"If" only applies while Jesus is on earth. But the pit does not have to be opened for Satan. It is only opened for human purposes.

Unless the locust are the fallen angels, but we are not told they are the fallen angels.

Also, do you think baal is Satan or even a literal being?
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
"If" only applies while Jesus is on earth. But the pit does not have to be opened for Satan. It is only opened for human purposes.

Unless the locust are the fallen angels, but we are not told they are the fallen angels.

Also, do you think baal is Satan or even a literal being?


All false gods are a part of Satan's plan.


.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Ki Won
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,316
568
56
Mount Morris
✟124,857.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
All false gods are a part of Satan's plan.
So false gods are literal, but God's Word is symbolic and only those in the know, have the knowledge to unlock the meaning?

Satan does not have a plan, just an active imagination. Satan is insane and does the same thing over and over with the same miserable results.
 
Upvote 0