Is NOSAS compatible with Amil?

Spiritual Jew said:

Even I agree that IF you were correct about what you are saying here then NOSAS and Amil would not be compatible. But, you're not correct about this and I have already shown that.

Also, this is a pathetic attempt to turn amils who believe in OSAS against amils who believe in NOSAS. I'm starting to lose a lot of respect for you, David.

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I agree. Amils can think for themselves. They do not need David to tell us what we can believe or not.

DavidPT said:

I fail to understand how Amils who are also in the NOSAS camp, can't see that Revelation 20:6 is not conditional. You would at least think, the fact that verse says---on such the 2nd death has no power---that that alone settles it. How can it not be a lie if someone has part in the first resurrection, which means the 2nd death has no power over them, thus they can't end up in the LOF, and then in some cases it turns out that it does after all, the fact some of them end up in the LOF? That verse does not say that nor remotely hint at anything like that.

The problem is not that NOSAS contradicts Revelation 20:6, because it clearly doesn't unless it conficts with something else, Amil in this case. How could any of this possibly cause a conflict with Premil? It's impossible. Which seems more likely to be the correct position, in a case like this? A position that is impossible to cause a conflict with? Or a position where it is possible to cause a conflict with?

I simply believe NOSAS is Biblical, and that I believe exactly what Revelation 20:6 states and implies, and that is, not one single person who has part in the first resurrection somehow end up in the LOF instead, and that this does not contradict NOSAS if the first resurrection is being understood like Premils are understanding it, but is a contradiction if the first resurrection is being understood like Amils are understanding it.

Unfortunately, I have no choice but to conclude, Amils who are also in the NOSAS camp, they do not believe what Revelation 20:6 states and implies, and that is, none of them that have part in the first resurrection will ever have part in the LOF, as if there are actually ones, though they are blessed and holy, that still end up in the LOF, regardless.


Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Does it look like any of these here are blessed and holy? Does it look like any of these here, the 2nd death has no power of them?

he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power----vs----shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


How can anyone not see that this is a blatant contradiction if anyone per the former end up among those in the latter?

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Why are you so selective in your conclusion? There are countless other passages that say what Rev 20:6 says. You have understandly ducked around these in order to sustain your reasoning.

Jesus said in John 3:16: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth (present active particle) in him should not perish, but have (present active subjunctive) everlasting life.”

Currently believing carefully corresponds with currently experiencing “everlasting life." It is a present reality for the elect, not merely a future hope. That is so because God lives within us now.

John 3:36 says, “He that believeth on the Son hath (present active indicative) everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God (the second death) abideth on him.”

If you don't possess eternal life now you will not possess it in the life to come. Only those who possess it now will never die.

Jesus said in John 5:24: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath (present active indicative) everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death (or experience the second death) unto life.”

He continues in the next verse (John 5:25): “Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.”

The transition from death to life both spiritually and physically occurs by way of resurrection. There is no other way. This is demonstrated many times in Scripture in regard to both spiritual and physical resurrection.

Jesus said in John 6:47: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath (present active indicative) everlasting life.”

The word “hath” here is a present tense word which means now or at this present time.

Jesus said in John 6:50-51, 54&58: “This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world … Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life … he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.”

John 8:51-52 Christ said to the Pharisees, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death (or experience the second death) … If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.”

Jesus said in John 10:27-28: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give (present active indicative) unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish (or experience the second death), neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

Jesus says, in John 11:25, “I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth (present active particle) and believeth (present active particle) in me shall never die (or experience the second death)."

These bodies are not eternal or immortal. Our spirits are. That is 101 Christianity. These bodies die. What is more we experience eternal life upon salvation. The Christian will live for and never die because the Spirit of God within.

John 17:3: “And this is (present, active, indicative) life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”

I John 5:11-13 says, “God hath given (aorist active indicative) to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath (present active particle) the Son hath (present active particle) life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have (present active indicative) eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.”

To have Christ is to have eternal life. That simple! Not to have Christ is not to have eternal life. That simple!

John is describing a current reality in Revelation 20:6. It says, “Blessed and holy is he ‘that hath part’ (present active particle) in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.”

This is supported by Revelation 2:11, which similarly says: “He that overcometh (present active particle) shall not be hurt of the second death.”

sovereigngrace said:

I agree that Revelation 20 supports eternal salvation. But there is multiple other Scripture that supports that great truth, not just Revelation 20, as you allege. The challenge is therefore applied to the whole NOSAS camp - regardless of their millennial stance. Repeated Scripture teaches what Revelation 20 does.

Jesus said in John 3:16: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth (present active particle) in him should not perish, but have (present active subjunctive) everlasting life.”

Currently believing carefully corresponds with currently experiencing “everlasting life." It is a present reality for the elect, not merely a future hope. That is so because God lives within us now.

John 3:36 says, “He that believeth on the Son hath (present active indicative) everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God (the second death) abideth on him.”

If you don't possess eternal life now you will not possess it in the life to come. Only those who possess it now will never die.

Jesus said in John 5:24: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath (present active indicative) everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death (or experience the second death) unto life.”

He continues in the next verse (John 5:25): “Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.”

The transition from death to life both spiritually and physically occurs by way of resurrection. There is no other way. This is demonstrated many times in Scripture in regard to both spiritual and physical resurrection.

Jesus said in John 6:47: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath (present active indicative) everlasting life.”

The word “hath” here is a present tense word which means now or at this present time.

Jesus said in John 6:50-51, 54&58: “This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world … Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life … he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.”

John 8:51-52 Christ said to the Pharisees, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death (or experience the second death) … If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.”

Jesus said in John 10:27-28: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give (present active indicative) unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish (or experience the second death), neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

Jesus says, in John 11:25, “I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth (present active particle) and believeth (present active particle) in me shall never die (or experience the second death)."

These bodies are not eternal or immortal. Our spirits are. That is 101 Christianity. These bodies die. What is more we experience eternal life upon salvation. The Christian will live for and never die because the Spirit of God within.

John 17:3: “And this is (present, active, indicative) life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”

I John 5:11-13 says, “God hath given (aorist active indicative) to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath (present active particle) the Son hath (present active particle) life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have (present active indicative) eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.”

To have Christ is to have eternal life. That simple! Not to have Christ is not to have eternal life. That simple!

John is describing a current reality in Revelation 20:6. It says, “Blessed and holy is he ‘that hath part’ (present active particle) in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.”

This is supported by Revelation 2:11, which similarly says: “He that overcometh (present active particle) shall not be hurt of the second death.”

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This fails to recognize that at salvation we enter into a covenant marriage with Jesus, by meeting the required criteria of faith, and agreeing to repent of our sins - meaning to turn from sins and follow Jesus.

If at anytime we break that marriage covenant because we lose faith - as happened to those in Hebrews 6:4-8 or renege on our repentance by turning back to living in sin as a lifestyle, we no longer remain in Christ, because we’ve committed spiritual adultery.

The first covenant was to be a perpetual covenant, but God divorced His elect bride Israel for spiritual adultery (continually sinning) in Jeremiah 3:8.

Thus continually sinning negated their promise for an eternal covenant.

We are married to Jesus Romans 7:4, and spiritual adultery in the new covenant still ends the marriage covenant for individual believers.

Marriage on earth is a covenant that is a type, or shadow, of marriage between Jesus and His bride.

Earthly marriage is a covenant for life, and only ends when one spouse dies - yet adultery breaks that lifetime covenant and ends it - despite the promise of “til death do we part”, the promise is negated by the sin of adultery.

Like the earthly marriage covenant, and Israel’s marriage covenant, the sin of adultery breaks covenants, which includes our covenant marriage with Jesus.

Which is why Paul warns over and over, to not be deceived, because choosing to live in sin as a believer will keep us out of heaven.

chad kincham said:

This fails to recognize that at salvation we enter into a covenant marriage with Jesus, by meeting the required criteria of faith, and agreeing to repent of our sins - meaning to turn from sins and follow Jesus.

If at anytime we break that marriage covenant because we lose faith - as happened to those in Hebrews 6:4-8 or renege on our repentance by turning back to living in sin as a lifestyle, we no longer remain in Christ, because we’ve committed spiritual adultery.

The first covenant was to be a perpetual covenant, but God divorced His elect bride Israel for spiritual adultery (continually sinning) in Jeremiah 3:8.

Thus continually sinning negated their promise for an eternal covenant.

We are married to Jesus Romans 7:4, and spiritual adultery in the new covenant still ends the marriage covenant for individual believers.

Marriage on earth is a covenant that is a type, or shadow, of marriage between Jesus and His bride.

Earthly marriage is a covenant for life, and only ends when one spouse dies - yet adultery breaks that lifetime covenant and ends it - despite the promise of “til death do we part”, the promise is negated by the sin of adultery.

Like the earthly marriage covenant, and Israel’s marriage covenant, the sin of adultery breaks covenants, which includes our covenant marriage with Jesus.

Which is why Paul warns over and over, to not be deceived, because choosing to live in sin as a believer will keep us out of heaven.

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The old covenant was temporal. The new covenant is eternal. The old covenant was based upon man's obedience and consequently failed. The new covenant is based upon Christ's obedience and consequently succeeded.

I refer you back to my avoided post.

sovereigngrace said:

The old covenant was temporal. The new covenant is eternal. The old covenant was based upon man's obedience and consequently failed. The new covenant is based upon Christ's obedience and consequently succeeded.

I refer you back to my avoided post.

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Your reply is wrong.

Marriage is marriage, and the old covenant was a perpetual, never ending marriage between God, and Israel, and adultery is what ended it.

BTW the new marriage covenant is still with the House of Israel, and gentiles are grafted in.

Unconditional eternal security is bogus.

Paul makes clear that after we have been saved, there is a continuing conflict between our wanting to walk in the flesh, (that wants us to live in sin)- and our desire to walk after the Holy Spirit that now dwells in us - and Paul warns that choosing to live in sins (works of the flesh), will keep us out of heaven:


Gal 5:16 ThisI say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.


Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.


Gal 5:18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


Gal 5:19 Now the WORKS OF THE FLESH are manifest, which are these;Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,


Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,


Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell YOU again, as I have also told youin time past, that they which DO such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.


Paul warns us over and over, that if we believers choose to walk after the flesh, we will die spiritually - but if we choose to walk after the spirit, we will have everlasting life:


Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.


Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded isDEATH, but to be spiritually minded isLIFE and peace.


Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind isENMITY against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


Verse 8:7 above, having a carnal mind is ENMITY against God, meaning you actually become Gods ENEMY.


Will God let His enemies into heaven?


Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is ENMITY with God? whosoever therefore will be a FRIEND OF THE WORLD is the ENEMY of God.


The verse above says sexual sins and being worldly, makes you Gods ENEMY.


Will God welcome His enemies into heaven?


We are expected and required as believers, to live the most sinless life we can, and to repent when we know we’ve sinned.


Scripture clearly shows that continuing to remain in Christ is conditional on us 1) continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and 2) continuing to walk after the spirit, instead of after the flesh.


In the two verses below, I put in parentheses the conditional part of these scriptures that are always left out by hyper-grace, OSAS teachers.


1Jn 1:7 (But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another), and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


The blood of Jesus cleansing the believer is conditional on their choosing to continue to walk in the light, as He is in the light.


Next:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, (who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, , but after the Spirit).


Having no condemnation, and remaining in Christ, is conditional upon walking after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.


And Paul warns us against being deceived about living in sin as a believer, when he wrote:


Gal 6:7 Be Not DECEIVED ; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man SOWETH,that shall he also REAP.


Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; BUT he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting


You reap everlasting life only if you sow to the spirit (walk after the Spirit, Romans 8:1) , but reap spiritual death if you sow to your flesh.


When we do occasionally sin, we must confess it, for God to forgive it. 1 John 1:9.


The lies of hyper grace are twofold: you don’t ever need to repent after salvation when you sin; and you can’t lose salvation.


This makes grace a license to sin, since sin has no eternal penalty.


Thus if you want a mistress on the side, you can have one, and regularly commit adultery - or if you’re a drunkard you can get drunk every day - you can live a sinful lifestyle with impunity.


I personally know people that are living in sin, and use OSAS as their sinning license, and they get angry if you tell them that Paul warned the brethren in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 that living in the sin of drunkenness or adultery, etc, will keep them out of heaven.


In that passage, Paul warns some of the believers that they are defrauding their brethren, (which is stealing, being a thief) then warns them that stealing, and other sins, will keep them from heaven:


1Co 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and DEFRAUD and that yourbrethren.


1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? BE NOT DECEIVED: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,


1Co 6:10 Nor THIEVES, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


Another warning by Paul, to the saints of God, about living a sinful lifestyle as a child of God:


Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;


Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh SAINTS.


Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.


Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath ANY inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.


Eph 5:6 Let no man DECEIVE you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the WRATH of God upon the children of disobedience.


Eph 5:7 Be not YE therefore partakers WITH them.

So much for not turning this into a OSAS vs. NOSAS debate as was requested in the OP. There are plenty of other threads on other forums on this site where that can be debated. It was not supposed to be debated in this thread.

This thread is only about whether it's possible to be NOSAS and Amil or not. It is.

chad kincham said:

Your reply is wrong.

Marriage is marriage, and the old covenant was a perpetual, never ending marriage between God, and Israel, and adultery is what ended it.

BTW the new marriage covenant is still with the House of Israel, and gentiles are grafted in.

Unconditional eternal security is bogus.

Paul makes clear that after we have been saved, there is a continuing conflict between our wanting to walk in the flesh, (that wants us to live in sin)- and our desire to walk after the Holy Spirit that now dwells in us - and Paul warns that choosing to live in sins (works of the flesh), will keep us out of heaven:


Gal 5:16 ThisI say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.


Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.


Gal 5:18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


Gal 5:19 Now the WORKS OF THE FLESH are manifest, which are these;Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,


Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,


Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell YOU again, as I have also told youin time past, that they which DO such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.


Paul warns us over and over, that if we believers choose to walk after the flesh, we will die spiritually - but if we choose to walk after the spirit, we will have everlasting life:


Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.


Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded isDEATH, but to be spiritually minded isLIFE and peace.


Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind isENMITY against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


Verse 8:7 above, having a carnal mind is ENMITY against God, meaning you actually become Gods ENEMY.


Will God let His enemies into heaven?


Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is ENMITY with God? whosoever therefore will be a FRIEND OF THE WORLD is the ENEMY of God.


The verse above says sexual sins and being worldly, makes you Gods ENEMY.


Will God welcome His enemies into heaven?


We are expected and required as believers, to live the most sinless life we can, and to repent when we know we’ve sinned.


Scripture clearly shows that continuing to remain in Christ is conditional on us 1) continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and 2) continuing to walk after the spirit, instead of after the flesh.


In the two verses below, I put in parentheses the conditional part of these scriptures that are always left out by hyper-grace, OSAS teachers.


1Jn 1:7 (But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another), and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


The blood of Jesus cleansing the believer is conditional on their choosing to continue to walk in the light, as He is in the light.


Next:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, (who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, , but after the Spirit).


Having no condemnation, and remaining in Christ, is conditional upon walking after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.


And Paul warns us against being deceived about living in sin as a believer, when he wrote:


Gal 6:7 Be Not DECEIVED ; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man SOWETH,that shall he also REAP.


Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; BUT he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting


You reap everlasting life only if you sow to the spirit (walk after the Spirit, Romans 8:1) , but reap spiritual death if you sow to your flesh.


When we do occasionally sin, we must confess it, for God to forgive it. 1 John 1:9.


The lies of hyper grace are twofold: you don’t ever need to repent after salvation when you sin; and you can’t lose salvation.


This makes grace a license to sin, since sin has no eternal penalty.


Thus if you want a mistress on the side, you can have one, and regularly commit adultery - or if you’re a drunkard you can get drunk every day - you can live a sinful lifestyle with impunity.


I personally know people that are living in sin, and use OSAS as their sinning license, and they get angry if you tell them that Paul warned the brethren in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 that living in the sin of drunkenness or adultery, etc, will keep them out of heaven.


In that passage, Paul warns some of the believers that they are defrauding their brethren, (which is stealing, being a thief) then warns them that stealing, and other sins, will keep them from heaven:


1Co 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and DEFRAUD and that yourbrethren.


1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? BE NOT DECEIVED: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,


1Co 6:10 Nor THIEVES, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


Another warning by Paul, to the saints of God, about living a sinful lifestyle as a child of God:


Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;


Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh SAINTS.


Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.


Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath ANY inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.


Eph 5:6 Let no man DECEIVE you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the WRATH of God upon the children of disobedience.


Eph 5:7 Be not YE therefore partakers WITH them.

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If you want to trust yourself in keeping it, refuse to take God at His Word, have no assurance you will make it and believe that you might end up in hell that is your prerogative. I believe the opposite. You are fighting with Scripture.

sovereigngrace said:

Jesus taught both. This of course exposes your denial.

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In your imagination produced by the "..and" that follows anything you have added to the teaching of Jesus and His apostles - such as your "spiritual" or "soul" resurrection.

There is only a spiritual birth from above. Resurrection refers to the dead body. By your own admission your have added "..AND.." to it.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

In your imagination produced by the "..and" that follows anything you have added to the teaching of Jesus and His apostles - such as your "spiritual" or "soul" resurrection.

There is only a spiritual birth from above. Resurrection refers to the dead body. By your own admission your have added "..AND.." to it.

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What is a good word for being raised up spiritually from being dead in sins to raised up and alive with Christ?

Ephesians 2:4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

Colossians 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority. 11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Colossians 3:1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God

John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

DavidPT said:

I fail to understand how Amils who are also in the NOSAS camp, can't see that Revelation 20:6 is not conditional. You would at least think, the fact that verse says---on such the 2nd death has no power---that that alone settles it. How can it not be a lie if someone has part in the first resurrection, which means the 2nd death has no power over them, thus they can't end up in the LOF, and then in some cases it turns out that it does after all, the fact some of them end up in the LOF? That verse does not say that nor remotely hint at anything like that.

The problem is not that NOSAS contradicts Revelation 20:6, because it clearly doesn't unless it conficts with something else, Amil in this case. How could any of this possibly cause a conflict with Premil? It's impossible. Which seems more likely to be the correct position, in a case like this? A position that is impossible to cause a conflict with? Or a position where it is possible to cause a conflict with?

I simply believe NOSAS is Biblical, and that I believe exactly what Revelation 20:6 states and implies, and that is, not one single person who has part in the first resurrection somehow end up in the LOF instead, and that this does not contradict NOSAS if the first resurrection is being understood like Premils are understanding it, but is a contradiction if the first resurrection is being understood like Amils are understanding it.

Unfortunately, I have no choice but to conclude, Amils who are also in the NOSAS camp, they do not believe what Revelation 20:6 states and implies, and that is, none of them that have part in the first resurrection will ever have part in the LOF, as if there are actually ones, though they are blessed and holy, that still end up in the LOF, regardless.


Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Does it look like any of these here are blessed and holy? Does it look like any of these here, the 2nd death has no power of them?

he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power----vs----shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


How can anyone not see that this is a blatant contradiction if anyone per the former end up among those in the latter?

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Yes, I totally agree:.

Knowing that Christ being [ἐγείρω egeírō] raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. Rom 6:9

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years. Rev 20:6.

We have part in Christ's resurrection before we die physically, because we have died with Him and been raised with Him through being born from above of His Spirit, and He said He is in those of us who believe in Him, and we in Him, and He exhorted us to abide in Him so that we can bear fruit, warning that the branches who do not abide in the vine wither and die, and are cast out.

But who are these in Revelation 20? Those who are alive in Christ before the resurrection of the dead at the appearance of Christ at the end of the age? (According to OSAS Amil this is who they are).

Yet in this vision given to John, these are being identified as having been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands:

Amil comes into conflict with the words "beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands.", because this would mean that every person saved by repentance from sin and unto faith in Jesus since Calvary, has been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and did not worship the beast nor his image, nor received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands.

NOSAS Amil has a second conflict, double-trouble with their theology, because they also need to explain away the fact that the second death has no power over those John saw in the vision given to him recorded in Rev 20. So they need to spiritualize this also, and find a way of fitting NOSAS Amil into their symbolic millennium.

But one thing I've noticed in churches that hold to Amil theology: There's a total de-emphasis on the resurrection of the bodies of the saints from the dead, though this is mentioned so many times in scripture that it shows that it is as central a part of the gospel as the birth from above by the Spirit of Christ:

OF BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS: Resurrection Verses

I've never heard any mention of the resurrection of the body from the dead at the funeral services of saints - the very place where it should be mentioned to give hope to the grieving family:

1 Thess 4
13 But I would not have you ignorant, brothers, concerning those who are asleep, that you be not grieved, even as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him all those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.
15 For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

The above passage should be quoted at every funeral of every saint. But Amil theology concentrates only on the spiritual and forgets the physical as if it's all dirty and carnal and always will be (not washed in the blood of Christ and never regenerated) - and it's no wonder - because they believe that the only thing that counts to God is the spiritual Kingdom of Christ which exists now in the world, and the material creation is only waiting to be burned up.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

Yes, I totally agree:.

Knowing that Christ being [ἐγείρω egeírō] raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. Rom 6:9

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years. Rev 20:6.

We have part in Christ's resurrection before we die physically, because we have died with Him and been raised with Him through being born from above of His Spirit, and He said He is in those of us who believe in Him, and we in Him, and He exhorted us to abide in Him so that we can bear fruit, warning that the branches who do not abide in the vine wither and die, and are cast out.

But who are these in Revelation 20? Those who are alive in Christ before the resurrection of the dead at the appearance of Christ at the end of the age? (According to OSAS Amil this is who they are).

Yet in this vision given to John, these are being identified as having been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands:

Amil comes into conflict with the words "beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands.", because this would mean that every person saved by repentance from sin and unto faith in Jesus since Calvary, has been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and did not worship the beast nor his image, nor received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands.

NOSAS Amil has a second conflict, double-trouble with their theology, because they also need to explain away the fact that the second death has no power over those John saw in the vision given to him recorded in Rev 20. So they need to spiritualize this also, and find a way of fitting NOSAS Amil into their symbolic millennium.

But one thing I've noticed in churches that hold to Amil theology: There's a total de-emphasis on the resurrection of the bodies of the saints from the dead, though this is mentioned so many times in scripture that it shows that it is as central a part of the gospel as the birth from above by the Spirit of Christ:

OF BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS: Resurrection Verses

I've never heard any mention of the resurrection of the body from the dead at the funeral services of saints - the very place where it should be mentioned to give hope to the grieving family:

1 Thess 4
13 But I would not have you ignorant, brothers, concerning those who are asleep, that you be not grieved, even as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him all those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.
15 For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

The above passage should be quoted at every funeral of every saint. But Amil theology concentrates only on the spiritual and forgets the physical as if it's all dirty and carnal and always will be (not washed in the blood of Christ and never regenerated) - and it's no wonder - because they believe that the only thing that counts to God is the spiritual Kingdom of Christ which exists now in the world, and the material creation is only waiting to be burned up.

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This post is full of lies. Amil does not concentrate only on the spiritual. That is a flat out lie. We concentrate on both the spiritual and physical bodily resurrection. We talk about the bodily resurrection of Christ all the time and we point out frequently that His bodily resurrection was the first unto immortality and next in turn is the mass resurrection of the dead in Christ at His glorious second coming.

Amil emphasizes that when Christ returns all dead believers from all time will be bodily resurrected and, along with those who are alive and remain, will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air while He takes vengeance on His enemies once and for all. We see His coming as climactic as it will bring an end to sin and death and we will then all get to inherit the new heavens and new earth with our immortal bodies and then be with God forever.

DavidPT said:

Where I disagree with you about, thus far anyway, maybe I will end up changing my mind at a later time, I don't know, is that anyone who has part in the first resurrrection, the fact they are declared to be blessed and holy at that point, but then somehow end up in the LOF in the end.

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Aren't we who are saved all blessed and holy?

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

Yet, since you believe NOSAS, you believe it's possible for one of these "chosen people" in His "holy nation" to lose their salvation and end up in the LOF in the end, right? How is that any different than someone losing their part in the first resurrection if the way someone has part in the first resurrection is by being saved?

That can't happen per Premil, because when they have part in the first resurrection, that is at the beginning of the thousand years, and as of this first resurrection they have now put on bodily immortality.

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Sure, because obviously, once someone is dead, their eternal fate is sealed and they then just wait for the day when the resurrection of the dead will occur.

Per Amil, and the fact NOSAS is Biblical, though I realize some dispute that, a lot of things can go wrong from the time they have part in the first resurrection, such as them falling away, which means they were only blessed and holy for a little while, rather than for forever instead. And that the 2nd death only has no power over them for a little while, rather than for forever instead. And finally, even though they began reigning with Christ a thousand years, they never finish reigning a thousand years with Him. I don't see Revelation 20:6 even remotely hinting at anything like that.

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There are passages in scripture that don't remotely indicate that someone can lose their salvation, too (even though we believe there are others that do). Such as this one:

John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

There is no indication in this particular passage that it's possible for someone to lose their faith in Christ and then not have eternal life, yet we still believe that, don't we? Using the kind of logic you're using when interpreting Rev 20:6 from an amil perspective to interpret John 3:16, we would have to conclude that once someone puts their faith in Christ and is saved they can never lose their salvation.

So, that shows that either the logic you're using to try to prove NOSAS and Amil aren't compatible is flawed or OSAS is true. Which is it?

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Why do you agree with what Amil teaches, that when someone who hath part in the first resurrection dies, (BTW, that alone sounds backwards, that someone who has been resurrected then dies, rather than someone who has died is then resurrected), they go to heaven in order to finish this thousand year reign that began when they were born again, if you, because you hold the NOSAS position, think some of them having part in the first resurrection don't end up doing that?

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For the same reason I believe in NOSAS. Remember, as an amil, I believe having part in the first resurrection (Christ's resurrection) and becoming saved are the same thing. Do you understand that? I don't think that you get that and that's why you're confused.

So, if you can let it sink in that amils believe the way someone has part in the first resurrection is by becoming saved then it should make sense to you if you try to look at it from my perspective (which I know is very hard for you) that someone losing their salvation is the exact same thing as losing their part in the first resurrection.

I don't know what else I can do to explain this to you, so if you still don't get it at this point then we need to agree to disagree.

BABerean2 said:

The above would be true for all of those who are truly "born-again" believers of the New Covenant Church, no matter whether they are still alive or if they are souls now in heaven.


Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

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I keep telling you that is what Paul means by the difference between an incorruptible and corruptible body. Yet you all ignore that truth like a plague. Adam died physically "that day". His incorruptible body was removed and he was given a corruptible body. The incorruptible awaits the church in Paradise. The resurrection is at physical death. Adam and Eve went in reverse order into physical death from a body that would have never seen the second death. This dead corruptible body has already been changed in Christ. It is only realized at physical death. You all won't accept that until it happens to you. Having the wrong theology will not change that fact, thank God!

Spiritual Jew said:

How can an incorruptible body die? Do you know what incorruptible means?

1. 
   in·cor·rupt·i·ble
   /ˌinkəˈrəptəb(ə)l/
   
   adjective: incorruptible
   1. not susceptible to corruption, especially by briber
   2. not subject to death or decay; everlasting.

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So you are saying God was incapable of doing the impossible to Adam when God clearly stated that would happen when Adam disobeyed. God took away Adam's incorruptible body and gave him a corruptible one. In the millennium Lord's Day, one who rebels will not be given a corruptible body. They will be sent to Death. God is not long suffering about rebellion or disobedience in the age to come. No funeral service or mourning. Immediate Death penalty.

Timtofly said:

So you are saying God was incapable of doing the impossible to Adam when God clearly stated that would happen when Adam disobeyed. God took away Adam's incorruptible body and gave him a corruptible one. In the millennium Lord's Day, one who rebels will not be given a corruptible body. They will be sent to Death. God is not long suffering about rebellion or disobedience in the age to come. No funeral service or mourning. Immediate Death penalty.

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Where does it say Adam had an incorruptible body? Nowhere. That is your opinion. If he did he would never have sinned or died. Such only comes at the end of the world.

Timtofly said:

I keep telling you that is what Paul means by the difference between an incorruptible and corruptible body. Yet you all ignore that truth like a plague. Adam died physically "that day". His incorruptible body was removed and he was given a corruptible body. The incorruptible awaits the church in Paradise. The resurrection is at physical death. Adam and Eve went in reverse order into physical death from a body that would have never seen the second death. This dead corruptible body has already been changed in Christ. It is only realized at physical death. You all won't accept that until it happens to you. Having the wrong theology will not change that fact, thank God!

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Why then did Adam live on till near a thousand? You have been taught wrong.

Spiritual Jew said:

What term would you use to describe the act of God raising us up spiritually from being dead in trespasses and sins to alive with Christ?

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I would call that working out your salvation. A prophet relies on his prophecy. A spiritually born person relies on the Holy Spirit to work out His presence in their lives. That is the fruit of the Spirit.

sovereigngrace said:

Why then did Adam live on till near a thousand? You have been taught wrong.

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You really misunderstand God's love and long suffering. Have you incorporated Islam into your theology where God has to instantly kill all wicked people, before birth or shortly after? God clearly stated no longer 1000 year life spans and reduced it to 120 years. Later David claimed it was only 70 years. Show me in Genesis 3, God declares a specific life span that you think I was not taught?

sovereigngrace said:

I am glad you both see the truth and veracity of eternal salvation.

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So now about the Lord's Day that you claim God is incapable of allowing?