What do you want to know about German history?

jayem

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Oh, that's difficult.
I very much like the composers of the romanticism era, so Brahms, Schumann and Medelssohn are all on my top list. Wagner is too heroic - even bombastic - for my tastes. Bach and Händel are a little too... baroque for my preference, though it's just that I like them less than not at all.

But from that list, it has to be Beethoven... I love about everything by him.

Yes, my all time favorite is still Tschaikovsky.

Not to get off-topic into music. But I neglected to mention Richard Strauss. Who's works I really like. He's to tone poems as Beethoven is to symphonies. His most familiar composition is the opening to the tone poem, Also Sprach Zarathustra. Which of course, was popularized by the movie 2001 A Space Odyssey. It's about as dramatic and bombastic as a piece of music can be. But Strauss deserves to be known for more than these 2 minutes.

 
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Chesterton

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Now that a little grass has grown over the curious discussion of the last posts, and we all seem to have a little time on our hands... I'd like to revive this thread.

And perhaps expand it, as much as I can.

So, anyone who wants to know anything about german history? Or Germany in general?
Wow, an active thread which pre-dates my existence here. Cool.

Sorry, but this is a bit nazi related. If a kid were walking down the street with a KISS t-shirt on, one with their standard logo, do you think he'd get hassled by the police? You know, because of the Schutzstaffel insignia looking letters.
 
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Freodin

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Wow, an active thread which pre-dates my existence here. Cool.

Sorry, but this is a bit nazi related. If a kid were walking down the street with a KISS t-shirt on, one with their standard logo, do you think he'd get hassled by the police? You know, because of the Schutzstaffel insignia looking letters.
Very unlikely.
There was a major controversy around that logo in the band's heyday, and there have been court cases against that. That's the reason why they changed their logo in Germany exclusively.

But since then, there have been specific legal statements in similar cases, and that specific case, that have declared that this logo does not fall under these rules.

The legal basis of that whole controversy is the paragrapgh §86a of the German Criminal Code (Strafgesetzbuch / StGB)
Strafgesetzbuch section 86a - Wikipedia

The relevant part here is:
"Symbols, within the meaning of subsection (1), shall be, in particular, flags, insignia, uniforms, slogans and forms of greeting. Symbols which are so similar as to be mistaken for those named in sentence 1 shall be deemed to be equivalent thereto."
Several courts have made clear that the KISS-logo is sufficiently distinguishable from the SS-runes to not fall under this rule.

That doesn't mean someone wearing such a shirt could or would not receive a criminal complaint... just that they wouldn't be sentenced for it.
It also makes it unlikely that police would hassle them for it... police tends to be rather well educated about this topic in Germany. It could still happen... even our police is only human.


This whole topic can be rather problematic in cases like that. For example, there were a number of court cases regarding left-wing organisations or publishers using swastikas that were crossed out, broken, or thrown into wastebins.
These groups had to go through all the legal instances before the courts decided that such symbolism was allowed when the disapproving context was made clear.

A problematic case in the opposite direction happened to the clothing-label "Consdaple". The label plays with other right-wing, pseudo-nazi symbolism, and their shirts are meant to be worn under a half-opened jacket, so that only the middle letters of "nsdap" are shown.
There have been court cases sentencing the wearer to prison terms for wearing the shirt in that way.
 
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Very unlikely.
There was a major controversy around that logo in the band's heyday, and there have been court cases against that. That's the reason why they changed their logo in Germany exclusively.

But since then, there have been specific legal statements in similar cases, and that specific case, that have declared that this logo does not fall under these rules.
All I had heard back in the day was that the band voluntarily changed the logo when they appeared in Germany, and on albums sold there. I had no idea there were actually multiple court cases about it. Very interesting.

In a vaguely related bit of rock-WWII trivia, when the band B-52s went to Japan for the first time, someone had the idea to advertise with posters saying "B-52s ARE COMING TO JAPAN!" Some people felt the suggestion of American bombers coming to Japan again was in questionable taste. :)
The legal basis of that whole controversy is the paragrapgh §86a of the German Criminal Code (Strafgesetzbuch / StGB)
Strafgesetzbuch section 86a - Wikipedia
Do you know why the Kommunistische Partei Deutschlands is included in the list of banned parties?
That doesn't mean someone wearing such a shirt could or would not receive a criminal complaint... just that they wouldn't be sentenced for it.
What do you mean? How do you have a criminal complaint that you wouldn't be sentenced for? You mean it would be like a warning?
A problematic case in the opposite direction happened to the clothing-label "Consdaple". The label plays with other right-wing, pseudo-nazi symbolism, and their shirts are meant to be worn under a half-opened jacket, so that only the middle letters of "nsdap" are shown.
Interesting that I searched for Consdaple and got zero results except for one mention in an article. (No, I'm not in the market for any, lol.) I was wondering if "consdaple" is a real word, or did they just make it up in order to get the "nsdap" in there?
There have been court cases sentencing the wearer to prison terms for wearing the shirt in that way.
And here I always thought "fashion police" was just a joke term. :)
 
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Freodin

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All I had heard back in the day was that the band voluntarily changed the logo when they appeared in Germany, and on albums sold there. I had no idea there were actually multiple court cases about it. Very interesting.
Well... this subject does hit a nerve with the german legal and political system... even if both had their troubles to completely distance themselves from their unsavory past.

I dare say it is a mixture of really taking it serious and not taking it serious but not wanting to flaunt that publically.

In a vaguely related bit of rock-WWII trivia, when the band B-52s went to Japan for the first time, someone had the idea to advertise with posters saying "B-52s ARE COMING TO JAPAN!" Some people felt the suggestion of American bombers coming to Japan again was in questionable taste. :)
It is "questionable taste"... but that's not illegal. ;)

Do you know why the Kommunistische Partei Deutschlands is included in the list of banned parties?
Oh, that's difficult. That's politics, and there is no clear-cut answer.
Basically, because it has been declared to be an "anticonstitutional organisation" by the supreme court. That means they try to get rid of the constitutional system and replace it with one that does not align with the fundamental constitutional values.

But it does take a supreme court judgement to make such a declaration, and that is rather difficult, because the constitution also guarantees the freedom of political opinion.
Since the founding of the Federal Republic, there have been only two such sentences... and they are heavily based on the political situation of their time.
First was the ban of the "SDR - Sozialistische Reichspartei" - which was basically a successor organisation of the NSDAP.
Then came the ban on the KPD, for their political program as well as their relations to foreign communist states and organisations.

Both these bans have to be seen in their historical context, where these groups were seen as serious threats to the integrity of the new republic and her political system.
In the KPD case, the court deliberately declared that such a ban could be set even if this group didn't have the power to really threaten the state.
Later, this policy was eased, and successor parties for both the right and left were allowed again.
A few years back, there was another attempt to ban the NPD, the current incarnation of the Nazis... but here the court reversed the reasoning of the late 50's and decided that, while this group was definitly anticonstitutional, their lack of influence didn't warrent a ban.

Still, both the Nazis as well the the Communists are subject to constant surveillance by the "Verfassungsschutz"... the intelligence agency tasked with protecting the constitution.

What do you mean? How do you have a criminal complaint that you wouldn't be sentenced for? You mean it would be like a warning?
More that the case would be "dismissed for being without merit"... if I get the english legalese lingo correct. But still, any complaint has to be taken serious and send to court. It is then for the court to decide if the complaint is reasonable.

Interesting that I searched for Consdaple and got zero results except for one mention in an article. (No, I'm not in the market for any, lol.) I was wondering if "consdaple" is a real word, or did they just make it up in order to get the "nsdap" in there?
They did make it up for just that. It's a play on the term "constable", sounding innocent and "international"... but the spelling was chosen for exactly this effect, and the surrounding iconography (a very nazi-style eagle) and the marketing (slogans like: "We are the bad ones") makes it totally clear what they want to say.
 
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Chesterton

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More that the case would be "dismissed for being without merit"... if I get the english legalese lingo correct. But still, any complaint has to be taken serious and send to court. It is then for the court to decide if the complaint is reasonable.
Ah, I see.

I read a book once, I think it was called Germany's Aims in the First World War. The author pretty much laid all the blame for WWI on Germany. He said because of the Schlieffen Plan and some other evidences, Germany was determined to find some reason to attack France and that it was inevitable. Do you agree with that?

Second question: Are any American comedians popular in Germany, past or present? If so, who? Also any comedy films or TV shows?
 
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Ah, I see.

I read a book once, I think it was called Germany's Aims in the First World War. The author pretty much laid all the blame for WWI on Germany. He said because of the Schlieffen Plan and some other evidences, Germany was determined to find some reason to attack France and that it was inevitable. Do you agree with that?
Not completely. The situation was much too complicated for such a simplistic view, and Fischer - the author of the book you mentioned - has been criticized for using some rather dubious fringe sources to back up his thesis. Since his book came out - almost 60 years ago already - there have been a lot of historians relativating his very harsh views.

But what you wrote is not without merit. As I said: it's complicated.
Problem one, in most of the European countries: the political goals of about every possible government, monarchic or republican, was directly set against the goals of some other major power.
France was focuses on regaining Alsace-Lorraine and avenging 1871. All her plans for a war in Europe were aimed at Germany as her main opponent. All her alliances were meant to give her assistance in such a conflict.
Germany of course wanted to keep the Alsace and saw France as the one inevitable enemy. The alliance with Austra-Hungary set her against Russia, her ambitions to gain status as a "worldpower", colonial interests and the related military expansions set her against all other colonial powers, especially Great-Britain.
Russia could find ways to deal with the other great powers in her colonial interests, but in Europe, her goals of dominance over the Balkans and the all-important goal of having free access to the Mediteranian lead to inevitable conflicts with Austria-Hungary and Turkey.
The British Empire just wanted to keep its hegemonial position, by keeping the "balance of power" between the other european countries... and as their current main opponent to that they saw the rising power of Germany.

None of the great powers even tried to find a way for a peaceful solution or even cooperation. They all felt that conflict was inevitable, all their diplomacy was set on giving themselves an advantage in this case. That was a major shift from the system of Bismarck, who tried to make alliances in order to prevent or at least localize wars.
And all of them we sold to the idea to wage a war before the enemy got even stronger.

That brings us to problem two: the dominance of strategic over politics.
All european powers were working under the assumptions that their differences could only be settled by force of arms, sooner or later.
That meant that the question of how to wage such a war was more important than if to wage war.
The strategical situation dictated the politics.
Germany knew that any war it would get involved in would also involve France. The most likely case for a war between the major powers was the Balkans (as it indeed would happen), that would mean Russia and Austria, maybe Turkey. Germany would have to backup Austria. That would means a war between Russia and Germany... and that would bring the French-Russian alliance into it.
War with France was inevitable in any potential scenario.
And that would mean the German nighmare of a war on two fronts. The military did not consider it possible to keep up with both France and Russia at the same time. It also considered Russia to be the bigger threat, with her almost unlimited manpower and vast territory.
So the Schliefen-Plan was born. Deal with France quickly, then push all your might against the Russian onslaught.

In a way, the existence of and reliance on the Schliefen-Plan was one point of Germany "fault" for the Great War. It was unreliable, a logistical nightmare. It was a strict one-way road... once set in motion, there could be no deviation. It didn't take into account the political and diplomatic situation. And there was absolutely no contingency plan. No alternative.
Once a war started... any war... Germany had to invade France via neutral Belgium... or their whole military strategy would collapse. And all would be too late, Germany would be overrun from east and west. Game over.

In that way, it really was Germany's fault.
The timing was another problem. For the last 40 years, since the Prussio-French War of 1870/71, both sides had gone through several military reforms meant to strengthen their power. Germany, with her larger population and industrial base - and less need to secure an overseas empire - always had the upper hand.
The russian military was considered to be large, but outdated. But since Russia's embarrasing loss against Japan in 1905, a series of military reforms had started in Russia also, and there full effects would be seen soon. Soon it would be too late to hope for a victory over Russia at all. Better war now, while we still see a chance, than later when Russia will just clobber us.

All of these plans, all of these ideas were outdated and unrealistic... militarily and politically. That would be shown quickly. But this mindset wasn't limited to Germany.

So, yes, Germany was to blame in that it started the war.
But in their mind, in the mindset that dominated all of Europe at that time... it had to start the war. There wasn't any alternative. All of the European powers prepared for that "inevitable" war. All sough only for ways how to win it, none about how to prevent it. All sought to use it to further their goals, their own dominance. None of them thought the idea of peaceful coexistence more desirable.
A prime example for that kind of reasoning is Italy's entry into the war in 1915. Italy could have sat out the war in neutrality. Her pact with Germany and Austria-Hungary was a purely defensive one... and Italy was not required to enter if Germany attacked France.
That Italy entered, and entered on the Entente side, was solely based on the consideration: where do we have the most to gain?

And there's a final problem: the limited imagination of the politics at that time... and here really Germany is massively to blame.
It should be noted that of all the major continental european powers before the war, Germany was the only one without any plans for territorial expansion.
France always had the goal to regain the Alsace-Lorraine and expand into the Saar region to weaken Germany's power.
Austria tried to expand on the Balkans, both directly and by hegemonial systems. Russia had the same goal - backed by their "panslavic" ideology, and their goal of free access to the high seas via Constantinople.
Italy desired the remaining austrian territories in Venezia as well as the eastern adriatic coast.

But of course Germany had her own interests... and while not territorial in Europe, these goal set it against most of the other powers. She was the rising industrial power, and at that time, industry also meant resources and markets, which meant "colonies". That set her directly against Great-Britain.
The Alsace-Lorraine question would always set her against France... neither side was willing to accept the others control over that resource-rich region.
Russia and russian expansionism was seen as a thread. Remember that Germany had a large direct border with Russia at that time.
The alliance with Austria was the only option against Russian expansion on the Balkan. Not backing up Austria might have led to the collapse of that multi-nationalites empire, and that would have made Germany only more vulnerable to russian threats.

Now all that, espcially Kaiser Wilhelm's hegemonial politics and his desire for "a place in the sunlight for Germany" manoeuvered his country into a position of isolation. A position for which Germany is completely to blame.
Bismarck tried to ensure Germany's security with his (impossible) system of alliances. Wilhelm II didn't care for that in his strive for glory.

The conclusion that can be drawn from all that:
Germany was mainly to blame for the Great War, because of her diplomatic inability to secure her position in any other way, her military dominated way of thinking that made any other option than preemptive way unthinkable and her weak political system that couldn't stand up to what the military thought was "necessary".

But Germany is not alone in this blame. Every other european power engaged in that system that made war indeed inevitable and left no alternative.

The only reason why Germany was given the sole blame for the war is that she lost.

Second question: Are any American comedians popular in Germany, past or present? If so, who? Also any comedy films or TV shows?
I don't think I can give specific answers to that... that is simply too diverse.
Also: I am the wrong person to ask such a question. I am quite removed from "current" culture, and all my personal ideas and informations would come from my own limited exprience from my younger days.

But generally: yes.
The USA is the biggest producer of entertainment of any kinds in the world, and Germany is a big market for that. Comedies are no exception.
Stand-up or live performances are a different topic though. These are simply not that accessible for a german audience.
Most - almost all - english movies are dubbed in Germany. You simply cannot do that with stand-up, and most Germans still have the preference of their own language over others.
I'd say it's a question of markets.
US comedians are comfortable with their market at home. Any overseas expansion is just an added bonus. It also fits with the general idea of US exceptionalism - there's the USA... and then some other minor, more or less unimportant countries.
There's no other country on earth that labels its national sporting events as "The World Series" ;)

So even if US comedians or other performers have an audience in other countries... they stick to their original language and routine. That limits the audience.

On the other hand, the USA, with it's huge market and huge entertainment industrie, is still a magnet for artist from all over the world. To "make it" in America is something special, a draw like no other country.
But when foreign - german - artists go to perfom in the USA, they adapt and translate their routines. They know they wouldn't have any audience if they did their usual german show.

There is a well-established stand-up comedy scene in Germany... the stars fill big arenas. But most of them are completely unknown outside of Germany, and only a few even attempt to do an "english" show.

 
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Chesterton

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Not completely. The situation was much too complicated for such a simplistic view, and Fischer - the author of the book you mentioned - has been criticized for using some rather dubious fringe sources to back up his thesis. Since his book came out - almost 60 years ago already - there have been a lot of historians relativating his very harsh views.

But what you wrote is not without merit. As I said: it's complicated.
Problem one, in most of the European countries: the political goals of about every possible government, monarchic or republican, was directly set against the goals of some other major power.
France was focuses on regaining Alsace-Lorraine and avenging 1871. All her plans for a war in Europe were aimed at Germany as her main opponent. All her alliances were meant to give her assistance in such a conflict.
Germany of course wanted to keep the Alsace and saw France as the one inevitable enemy. The alliance with Austra-Hungary set her against Russia, her ambitions to gain status as a "worldpower", colonial interests and the related military expansions set her against all other colonial powers, especially Great-Britain.
Russia could find ways to deal with the other great powers in her colonial interests, but in Europe, her goals of dominance over the Balkans and the all-important goal of having free access to the Mediteranian lead to inevitable conflicts with Austria-Hungary and Turkey.
The British Empire just wanted to keep its hegemonial position, by keeping the "balance of power" between the other european countries... and as their current main opponent to that they saw the rising power of Germany.

None of the great powers even tried to find a way for a peaceful solution or even cooperation. They all felt that conflict was inevitable, all their diplomacy was set on giving themselves an advantage in this case. That was a major shift from the system of Bismarck, who tried to make alliances in order to prevent or at least localize wars.
And all of them we sold to the idea to wage a war before the enemy got even stronger.

That brings us to problem two: the dominance of strategic over politics.
All european powers were working under the assumptions that their differences could only be settled by force of arms, sooner or later.
That meant that the question of how to wage such a war was more important than if to wage war.
The strategical situation dictated the politics.
Germany knew that any war it would get involved in would also involve France. The most likely case for a war between the major powers was the Balkans (as it indeed would happen), that would mean Russia and Austria, maybe Turkey. Germany would have to backup Austria. That would means a war between Russia and Germany... and that would bring the French-Russian alliance into it.
War with France was inevitable in any potential scenario.
And that would mean the German nighmare of a war on two fronts. The military did not consider it possible to keep up with both France and Russia at the same time. It also considered Russia to be the bigger threat, with her almost unlimited manpower and vast territory.
So the Schliefen-Plan was born. Deal with France quickly, then push all your might against the Russian onslaught.

In a way, the existence of and reliance on the Schliefen-Plan was one point of Germany "fault" for the Great War. It was unreliable, a logistical nightmare. It was a strict one-way road... once set in motion, there could be no deviation. It didn't take into account the political and diplomatic situation. And there was absolutely no contingency plan. No alternative.
Once a war started... any war... Germany had to invade France via neutral Belgium... or their whole military strategy would collapse. And all would be too late, Germany would be overrun from east and west. Game over.

In that way, it really was Germany's fault.
The timing was another problem. For the last 40 years, since the Prussio-French War of 1870/71, both sides had gone through several military reforms meant to strengthen their power. Germany, with her larger population and industrial base - and less need to secure an overseas empire - always had the upper hand.
The russian military was considered to be large, but outdated. But since Russia's embarrasing loss against Japan in 1905, a series of military reforms had started in Russia also, and there full effects would be seen soon. Soon it would be too late to hope for a victory over Russia at all. Better war now, while we still see a chance, than later when Russia will just clobber us.

All of these plans, all of these ideas were outdated and unrealistic... militarily and politically. That would be shown quickly. But this mindset wasn't limited to Germany.

So, yes, Germany was to blame in that it started the war.
But in their mind, in the mindset that dominated all of Europe at that time... it had to start the war. There wasn't any alternative. All of the European powers prepared for that "inevitable" war. All sough only for ways how to win it, none about how to prevent it. All sought to use it to further their goals, their own dominance. None of them thought the idea of peaceful coexistence more desirable.
A prime example for that kind of reasoning is Italy's entry into the war in 1915. Italy could have sat out the war in neutrality. Her pact with Germany and Austria-Hungary was a purely defensive one... and Italy was not required to enter if Germany attacked France.
That Italy entered, and entered on the Entente side, was solely based on the consideration: where do we have the most to gain?
Thanks for the thorough answer. That all makes a lot of sense.

I'd like to share a couple bits of trivia about my part of the world.
...Alsace-Lorraine...

Just west of where I am is a small town called Castroville. It's called The Little Alsace of Texas. Alsatians settled there long ago, and maintained their language and culture. (Or at least they had as of my childhood; I don't know what it's like today.) I had an uncle from there, surname Haby. Pretty much everyone in the town was named Haby. Do you know if Haby is a common name in Alsace, or in Germany generally?

Also, what happened in recent years? I've heard Alsace-Lorraine doesn't go by those names now? They're something called Grand Est?
Kaiser Wilhelm
In my city there's an old German neighborhood with big 19th century homes. (Well, 19th century is old by American standards. :)) It was originally called the Kaiser Wilhelm District. At the outbreak of WWI, the name was anglicized to King William District, and that's what it's called to this day. Our city also has a large water garden which was a gift from Japan, called the Japanese Tea Gardens. At the outbreak of WWII it was renamed Sunken Gardens. Sometime in the 1990's the name was changed back to it's original. That never happened with the German district, but I suspect that's just because "kaiser" is kind of an antiquated word.
"a place in the sunlight for Germany"
I never knew Wilhelm said that. So Mussolini was not only a brutal dictator, he was also a plagarist! :D
 
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Freodin

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Just west of where I am is a small town called Castroville. It's called The Little Alsace of Texas. Alsatians settled there long ago, and maintained their language and culture. (Or at least they had as of my childhood; I don't know what it's like today.) I had an uncle from there, surname Haby. Pretty much everyone in the town was named Haby. Do you know if Haby is a common name in Alsace, or in Germany generally?
No, not really. Did a quick search on the web... most common occurance of the family name "Haby" is in Bavaria... with 13 entries.
The most mentions of that name did indeed come from the Alsace region.

Also, what happened in recent years? I've heard Alsace-Lorraine doesn't go by those names now? They're something called Grand Est?
It seems they changed it quite recently, in 2016. A new organizational reform reduced the number of "Regions" and "Alsace" was one of the old regions that got incorporated into a new, larger one: "Grand Est" (The other two being Lorraine and Champagne-Ardenne).
That's organizational though... and France seems to like changing these things once in a while. ;) In the common parlance, these regions are still called "Alsace" and "Lorraine"... and that's not going to change quickly.

Organizational reforms are done for, well, organizational reasons. France with its strong centralized system has it easier to reorganize, I'd say. In Germany, there have been decaded of talks about restructuring the "Bundesländer" for a more balanced financial system. As yet, nothing has come from it. The re-unification was seen as a chance for a major reform... but that also is now thirty years gone. As yet, nothing has come from it.

But you would have to ask a Frenchman for a better view on how this works in France. ;)

In my city there's an old German neighborhood with big 19th century homes. (Well, 19th century is old by American standards. :)) It was originally called the Kaiser Wilhelm District. At the outbreak of WWI, the name was anglicized to King William District, and that's what it's called to this day. Our city also has a large water garden which was a gift from Japan, called the Japanese Tea Gardens. At the outbreak of WWII it was renamed Sunken Gardens. Sometime in the 1990's the name was changed back to it's original. That never happened with the German district, but I suspect that's just because "kaiser" is kind of an antiquated word.
I guess that has something to do more with politics than with antiquated words. Japan is still Japan... it's just the relationship with it that has changed. But there hasn't been a "Kaiser" in Germany for a century.

I never knew Wilhelm said that. So Mussolini was not only a brutal dictator, he was also a plagarist! :D
The orginal quote is by German Chancellor Bernhard von Bülow, propagating an increased colonial engagement.
"Wir wollen niemand in den Schatten stellen, aber wir verlangen auch unseren Platz an der Sonne."
(We don't want to push anyone into the shadow, but we too demand our place in the sun.)
This idiom was the topic of a lot of ridicule, especially when the opposition pointed out that the german colonies never were profitable, and German money was melting like butter in this "place in the sun".

Wilhelm II is - in this regard - better known for his "glorious times" quote: "Zu Großem sind wir noch bestimmt, und herrlichen Zeiten führe ich euch noch entgegen."
(We are destinied for greatness, and I will lead you into glorious times.)
 
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Are there any notable old pagan-related structures, or anything from the pre-Christian era in Germany?
I don't know of any that I would consider "notable".
The old pagans didn't really build in stone, especially not their cultic sites. There are some megalithic burial sites and some pillars/standing stones that may depict old deites.

Most major pagan sites would have been destroyed or converted into Christian sites in the progressing Christianitzation.

The existing "pre-Christian" buildings in Germany are of Roman origin. The oldest still existing building is the famous "Porta Nigra" - a roman city gate in Trier, build in ca. 170 CE in what was then the roman colony of Augusta Treverorum.
 
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Chesterton

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Most major pagan sites would have been destroyed or converted into Christian sites in the progressing Christianitzation.
I'll take your word for it that that's what would have happened in Germany, but there are many, many sites around Christendom that were not destroyed. The Parthenon wasn't destroyed, Stonehenge wasn't destroyed, etc.
 
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Freodin

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I'll take your word for it that that's what would have happened in Germany, but there are many, many sites around Christendom that were not destroyed. The Parthenon wasn't destroyed, Stonehenge wasn't destroyed, etc.
It heavily depends on the situation.
As I mentioned: there do exist megalithic structures, similar to Stonehenge in Germany (though not of that scale or renown). The majority of these were burial sites, not cultic ones, so they tended not to be "public". Many of the more accessible ones were destroyed... not because of religious fervor, but simply from neglicence and disinterest. Accessible stones were always in demand.

Structures like the Parthenon are something different again. Highly sophisticated stone buildings. The ancient Germans didn't build anything like that. There wasn't something like that to destory... or convert.
Yes, the Parthenon wasn't destroyed... at least, not completly. It was converted into a Christian church and later a mosque. Similar things happened to other pre-Christian buildings. Even the "Porta Nigra" (Black Gate) that I mentioned mainly survived because it got turned into a church.

But the old german cultic sites were natural structures. Trees and groves for example.
There is the well-known story of Bonifatius, the "Apostel of the Germans", cutting down Donar's Oak, a major holy site of the Frisians... and then using the wood to build a church.
The "Irminsul" (Big Pillar) - destroyed by Charlemagne in 772 CE - was the major saxon holy site. It might have been an artificial stone pillar, symbolizing the pillar that held up the sky... it also might have been an artificial wooden pillar, or even a formed tree. There are many speculations about its form... but we really don't know, because it was destroyed.
But neither of all these were architectonic structures akin to either the megalithic structures or the stone buildings of the Mediteranian.
 
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Chesterton

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I've heard that immediately following WWI, there were many books published which were similar to Ernst Junger's Storm of Steel, in that they glorified war and military service, and these books were popular with the public. Do you think this type of literature influenced its audience to think in a certain militaristic way, or were the books written for an audience which already thought that way?

This always seemed odd to me, because I would have expected the victors to be more enthusiastic about war following a victory, but in England and America, the sentiment in most literature was the opposite - that we were weary of and disgusted with war.
 
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Freodin

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I've heard that immediately following WWI, there were many books published which were similar to Ernst Junger's Storm of Steel, in that they glorified war and military service, and these books were popular with the public. Do you think this type of literature influenced its audience to think in a certain militaristic way, or were the books written for an audience which already thought that way?

This always seemed odd to me, because I would have expected the victors to be more enthusiastic about war following a victory, but in England and America, the sentiment in most literature was the opposite - that we were weary of and disgusted with war.
There were also a lot of books written that were just as "weary of and disgusted with war" in German. "All Quiet On The Western Front" would be the most famous of them, but there were a lot of other books, texts, plays and poems.

I cannot go into a literature analysis of every pro- or anti-war text published at that time... either from the Central Powers or the Entente. That would be beyond my expertise by far... and beyond the scope of such a thread as this one.
I would say that every single text reflects something about the way it's author dealt with their experience of the war... from disgusted to disillusioned to resigned to engaged to enthusiastic... and how this reflected the views of their readership, or their desired views.
 
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Jaxxi

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... beyond the well known and discussed Nazi era?

Ask away, and I will try to provide an answer.
Ok why did the Nazis follow Hitlers atrocious orders to kill innocent people, including children when they should have just killed Hitler. I mean, he was obviously doing the wrong thing and it would have been easy for them.
 
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Freodin

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Ok why did the Nazis follow Hitlers atrocious orders to kill innocent people, including children when they should have just killed Hitler. I mean, he was obviously doing the wrong thing and it would have been easy for them.
(You quote a post that explicitly asks for topics beyond the Nazi era... and then go on to ask about the Nazi era. Seriously? Well... I just can't stop myself.)

Mainly because of a little psychological concept called "othering" or "dehumanizing".
For the Nazis, Hitler did not kill "innocent people" and what he did was not "obviously" wrong. He did what was necessary to save the "superiour race" from "subhuman vermin" and "unworthy life". He followed the "obvious" rules of natural law.

Everyone can fall for that. Give them something to identify with, something they can see as "noble" and "worthy"... and then call up the spectre of "The Other" who only wants - who only exists - to destory your noble identity. And lots of people will follow you.

Homosexuals are trying to abolish the family? Liberals want to destroy America? Caravans are invading the country to steal your jobs? Jews are killing the aryan race?
Same principle.
 
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I have not heard of any Jews killing anybody! Thats weird. See now to me, all of those are obviously wrong! You could not convince me to kill anybody for any " noble" cause no matter what. Like you COULDN'T do it, unless they had hurt my children and then you probably couldn't stop me. But just people who never did anything to me personally who were just living as they saw fit? To me there is no " motive" there. They would be innocent people to me because they never wronged me. They could be having sex with same sex circus midgets in nazi clothing with Hitler mustaches and I could care less. That is on them and they will have to answer for their deeds to their Maker. Who am I to judge? I have a log in my own eye!
 
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Freodin

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I have not heard of any Jews killing anybody! Thats weird. See now to me, all of those are obviously wrong! You could not convince me to kill anybody for any " noble" cause no matter what. Like you COULDN'T do it, unless they had hurt my children and then you probably couldn't stop me. But just people who never did anything to me personally who were just living as they saw fit? To me there is no " motive" there. They would be innocent people to me because they never wronged me. They could be having sex with same sex circus midgets in nazi clothing with Hitler mustaches and I could care less. That is on them and they will have to answer for their deeds to their Maker. Who am I to judge? I have a log in my own eye!
You just provided your own explanation... all that is left is for you to realize it.

"...unless they had hurt my children and then you probably couldn't stop me."

See... you do have a "noble cause". You may not go for any of the other common "noble causes"... God, King, Honour, Fatherland, or whatever else is out there to fight for... but there are things that you would fight and kill for.
The question is just what would make you start. What would make you say: "And now's the time."

You may be an extremely peaceful person. You may have an exceptional understanding of facts and reality. But not everyone is like that... most people are not like that.

I can understand your bafflement at other people's motivation. I share this bafflement every time I speak to a religious person. ;)

But still I accept that other people do have their motives... even if I don't understand them.
 
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