Not so complicated...

BABerean2

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That is exactly why the Second Coming is not at Armageddon. That theory is plan B.


Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.


.
 
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BABerean2

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Yet you seem to deny God's ability to graft them in by His choice. You base it on their choice. That is error. God clearly states it would be His choice.

All men and women are commanded to "repent".
Does God repent for you?


Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.


God broke off some of the branches because of their unbelief.
They can be grafted back into the Olive Tree Church through faith in Christ.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?


Anyone who claims people will be saved because of their race on the day of His Second Coming have cut 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 out of their Bible.

.
 
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nolidad

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Happens as a result of and after Gog/Magog. I agree with you though that at present there is a lot of apathy among them in Israel regarding the messiah that the religious Jews in Israel are looking for.

Dangerous speculation on you rpart without any biblical support.

We have no evidence that Israel takes a king in the last days or that teh Russian Alliance Invasion will be led by the antichrist.

nolidad, you were referring me to Daniel 7. The way the bible is structured, there is a progression of information about the person as the chapters work their way to the end.

So while in Daniel 7, the little horn meets his end at Jesus's return, at the end of his time, he is the beast.

Being the Antichrist is one stage in the progression. It lasts until the person reveals himself to be the man of sin, and not the thought-to-be King of Israel/messiah by the Jews after all.

Yes yes you have agued that all before. I wil lcontinue to call HIm the antichrist- cuz its easy and if your "progressions" are correct they are still teh same person.

Besides the antichrist is the physcial son of Satan- not much luck in HIm proving He is a descendnat of David.

Also I wrote in response to your speculations of the fourth beast being the EU and I showed you biblically why it cannot be. This is just a rabbit trail.
 
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Douggg

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We have no evidence that Israel takes a king in the last days or that teh Russian Alliance Invasion will be led by the antichrist.
I think you have misunderstood what I was saying, or intended to say.

I agree the Russian will be the prime military power of the Gog/Magog group. But the person you are calling the antichrist (which I call the great opposer to Jesus) is not associated with that group.

The person we are citing will be the leader of the EU when the Gog/Magog event seems imminent and will try to deter the invasion from taking place, by staging his EU army in Greece as a deterrent.

Whether the EU army will actually engage Gog's army in fighting is unclear, probably not as God supernaturally destroys Gog's army.

It will be in the aftermath, that the little horn will seize the opportunity and move his EU army into the devastated oil rich lands claiming to do on the grounds of being peace keeper in the region.

The Jews will view his action to deter Gog's invasion as messianic, and the person will be anointed the King of Israel, coming in his own name. That's when he becomes the Antichrist.

Yes yes you have agued that all before. I wil lcontinue to call HIm the antichrist- cuz its easy and if your "progressions" are correct they are still teh same person.

I think it is more of a case of you don't want to change you ways. Why? because. Because why? just because.
 
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nolidad

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I think you have misunderstood what I was saying, or intended to say.

I agree the Russian will be the prime military power of the Gog/Magog group. But the person you are calling the antichrist (which I call the great opposer to Jesus) is not associated with that group.

The person we are citing will be the leader of the EU when the Gog/Magog event seems imminent and will try to deter the invasion from taking place, by staging his EU army in Greece as a deterrent.

Whether the EU army will actually engage Gog's army in fighting is unclear, probably not as God supernaturally destroys Gog's army.

It will be in the aftermath, that the little horn will seize the opportunity and move his EU army into the devastated oil rich lands claiming to do on the grounds of being peace keeper in the region.

The Jews will view his action to deter Gog's invasion as messianic, and the person will be anointed the King of Israel, coming in his own name. That's when he becomes the Antichrist.

This is great stuff for a novel or series like the Tribulation series, but to declare this fact is arrogant to teh extreme.

Teh Bible doesn't call him an EU leader. He simply is different from teh ten hors (which you presumptiously call the EU) and conquers three of the ten. So you have the Antichrists power limited to teh EU unless the EU is the whole world as the Bible says.

Do you believe the bugs out of teh abyss led by Abaddon are helicopters as well like Lindsay said they were?
 
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Douggg

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This is great stuff for a novel or series like the Tribulation series, but to declare this fact is arrogant to teh extreme.

Teh Bible doesn't call him an EU leader. He simply is different from teh ten hors (which you presumptiously call the EU) and conquers three of the ten. So you have the Antichrists power limited to teh EU unless the EU is the whole world as the Bible says.

Do you believe the bugs out of teh abyss led by Abaddon are helicopters as well like Lindsay said they were?
nolidad, the basis is that the little horn person waxes strong (another way of saying he comes with a strong army) to the south and east (from his location) toward the pleasant land (another way of saying Israel). Daniel 8:9.

So that would place the little horn northwest of Israel. And the EU is the one who has any kind of army worth mentioning from that direction.

When the little horn comes to power, he "stands up" a saying for prepares to go to war. Daniel 8:23.

And that he destroys many by peace. Daniel 8:25.

Do you believe the bugs out of teh abyss led by Abaddon are helicopters as well like Lindsay said they were?
I think you are talking about the horses in Revelation 9:17-19, not the locust. Anyway, I am thinking tanks, that the turrets can rotate and fire in a lot of different directions.
 
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Timtofly

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Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
I am glad you agree with me.

You are warned. You should be prepared to leave well before Satan comes on the scene.

If you want to fight against Christ, go for it.
 
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Timtofly

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All men and women are commanded to "repent".
Does God repent for you?


Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.


God broke off some of the branches because of their unbelief.
They can be grafted back into the Olive Tree Church through faith in Christ.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?


Anyone who claims people will be saved because of their race on the day of His Second Coming have cut 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 out of their Bible.
Even in unbelief if God so chooses. You can argue with God and take yourself out if you hate the way God does things.
 
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Ki Won

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I have read this tread and come to the conclusion that most of the posts are fictional and not supported by the bible.

No support in the bible for taking the 70th week and transporting it to the end of time.

The problem we have Original Happy Camper is that each contributor believes that he is right and therefore everybody else is wrong. If nobody is prepared to give any leeway no progress can be made.. It's disappointing because some of the posts do contain truths but unfortunately they're obfuscated by being mixed in with falsehoods. Falsehoods that, like you say, can not be supported Biblically yet people will still try and squeeze Scripture into their narrative instead of applying their narratives to Scripture. If they did the latter, i.e. asked themselves if Scripture truly supports their position rather than manipulating it to fit, they would be forced to let go of most of what they believe to be true.

I know this because it's a journey I myself have had to take, indeed, much of what has been shared in this thread and my own thread about the beasts of Revelation are positions I have held at some point during my life and research. Some of the arguments can be quite persuasive, even if they are ultimately wrong. It can be difficult to let go of long held beliefs, it is even more difficult to accept that you're wrong yet truly Spirit led believers should be able to do both graciously. I see no evidence of that here, sadly..
 
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Ki Won

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This is great stuff for a novel or series like the Tribulation series, but to declare this fact is arrogant to teh extreme.

Teh Bible doesn't call him an EU leader. He simply is different from teh ten hors (which you presumptiously call the EU) and conquers three of the ten. So you have the Antichrists power limited to teh EU unless the EU is the whole world as the Bible says.

Do you believe the bugs out of teh abyss led by Abaddon are helicopters as well like Lindsay said they were?

Haha, I was thinking the same thing. Doug should write novels because his imagination is just so creative. He says that it's "not so complicated" and then takes people on a journey through the Scriptures involving mental gymnastics that is far too complicated for the God I know. If the Gospel is simple, so should be the interpretation of God's Word..
 
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Timtofly

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Did you notice the word "not" in Romans 11:23, or did you erase it to make your viewpoint work?


.
Did you notice abide not still in unbelief. Those that abide in belief is contrasted with those who abide not still in unbelief.
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Your argument comes from current Israel; without any hope, and will remain lost because of unbelief. That is not the point of Romans 11. God can redeem them in a Day, by changing their belief Himself. You are arguing they cannot be "saved" unless they belive. That is wrong. God will choose them even in unbelief. God will not take a church that has lost trust/faith. The church can be removed at whim, especially if she has falling away from trust in God. The current church is not the Olive tree. It is just a grafted in branch. That is the point you seem to be hung up on. One's denomination may be in worse predicament than Atheist Israel right now. There are many grafted in branches. Or as I claimed, a branch may think they are grafted in, but already broken off and in the fire.
 
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Douggg

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jgr

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BABerean2

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Did you notice abide not still in unbelief.

Do you understand the English languages use of two negatives in one sentence?

"not" + "un-" = belief


Romans 11:23

(ESV) And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

(ESV+) And R7even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

(Geneva) And they also, if they abide not still in vnbeliefe, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graffe them in againe.

(GW) If Jewish people do not continue in their unbelief, they will be grafted onto the tree again, because God is able to do that.

(KJV) And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

(KJV+) AndG1161 theyG1565 also,G2532 if they abide notG3362 G1961 still in unbelief,G570 shall be graffed in:G1461 forG1063 GodG2316 isG2076 ableG1415 to graff them inG1461 G846 again.G3825

(NKJV) And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

(YLT) And those also, if they may not remain in unbelief, shall be graffed in, for God is able again to graff them in;


If this is the kind of double-talk that is needed to make Dispensational Theology work, why do people hang onto it?


.
 
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mkgal1

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@Douggg, I've not read all the posts in this thread, but I've been looking for references of "prince". The only references I see refer to Michael....and He is either preincarnate Jesus or an agent who carries out God's wrath (from what I've read so far). He's labeled here as, "the great prince who stands watch over (or protects) your people". It doesn't fit the narrative to interpret him, the Prince, as opposing God. He clearly defeats Satan in Revelation.

Daniel 10:13
However, the prince of the kingdom of Persia opposed me for twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia


Daniel 10:21
But first I will tell you what is inscribed in the Book of Truth. Yet no one has the courage to support me against these, except Michael your prince

Daniel 12:1
At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress, the likes of which will not have occurred from the beginning of nations until that time. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

and here:

Revelation 12:7-9
Then a war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But the dragon was not strong enough, and no longer was any place found in heaven for him and his angels. And the great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
 
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Douggg

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@Douggg, I've not read all the posts in this thread, but I've been looking for references of "prince". The only references I see refer to Michael....and He is either preincarnate Jesus or an agent who carries out God's wrath (from what I've read so far). He's labeled here as, "the great prince who stands watch over (or protects) your people". It doesn't fit the narrative to interpret him, the Prince, as opposing God. He clearly defeats Satan in Revelation.

Daniel 10:13
However, the prince of the kingdom of Persia opposed me for twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia


Daniel 10:21
But first I will tell you what is inscribed in the Book of Truth. Yet no one has the courage to support me against these, except Michael your prince

Daniel 12:1
At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress, the likes of which will not have occurred from the beginning of nations until that time. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

and here:

Revelation 12:7-9
Then a war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But the dragon was not strong enough, and no longer was any place found in heaven for him and his angels. And the great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
Do you believe that Messiah the Prince in Daniel 9:25 is Jesus?

Jesus is the Christ the King of Israel - coming in the name of the Lord. (Mark 15:31-32, you will find "Christ the King of Israel" )

The prince who shall come will be the Anti-Christ, the King of Israel coming in his own name.

_______________________________________________________

The concept is simple when you think about it. Jesus is the rightful King of israel, the One who God sent to be their King - but they rejected him, although he came in the name of the Lord.

The Anti-Christ is someone the Jews will embrace as the King of Israel, in error, who comes in his own name. A way of saying God did not send that person to be their King.

________________________________________________________

Then all we have to do is figure from scripture of where he comes from, how he gets into that position, and how later becomes the beast in Revelation.


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Douggg

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@Douggg, I've not read all the posts in this thread, but I've been looking for references of "prince". The only references I see refer to Michael....and He is either preincarnate Jesus or an agent who carries out God's wrath (from what I've read so far). He's labeled here as, "the great prince who stands watch over (or protects) your people". It doesn't fit the narrative to interpret him, the Prince, as opposing God. He clearly defeats Satan in Revelation.

Daniel 10:13
However, the prince of the kingdom of Persia opposed me for twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia


Daniel 10:21
But first I will tell you what is inscribed in the Book of Truth. Yet no one has the courage to support me against these, except Michael your prince

Daniel 12:1
At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress, the likes of which will not have occurred from the beginning of nations until that time. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

and here:

Revelation 12:7-9
Then a war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But the dragon was not strong enough, and no longer was any place found in heaven for him and his angels. And the great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
btw,

mkgal1, if you did your word search in the KJV bible, you would find 355 instances for "prince".

PRINCE IN THE BIBLE
 
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