We Are In The Laodicea Church Age

parousia70

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It’s a prophecy man get with the program. It has been fulfilled in real life.

Please demonstrate How the coming of Christ as a thief happened during the Sardis Church Age.

Revelation 3:3
 
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parousia70

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Funny you overlook the very passages to the 7 churches.

Overlook?
Hardly.

I take them at face value. I do not attempt to shoehorn any unbiblical meaning into them.

Each of those "First Century Churches" Christ was DIRECTLY ADDRESSING had unique, contemporary situations that John testified were to "soon" be directly addressed by Christ's coming to them:

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Thyatira
promise: Revelation 2:18-25
result: their false prophetess and all her followers would be killed off by
Christ's coming. The Church was granted Christ's authority.

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Pergamum
promise: Revelation 2:12-16
result: the heretical Nicolaitans were to be put down by Christ's coming to
Pergamum. The Nicolaitans that were causing them to break the decree of the Council of Jerusalem were killed (Rev 2:14; cf. Acts 15:28-29).

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Sardis
promise: Revelation 3:1-5
result: Christ promises them that his "thief-in-the-night" coming will come
upon them. They had not been faithfully expecting "the thief" as explained to them in Matt 24:43/1 Thess5:2-5. However, a few in Sardis were found worthy and had not soiled their garments. At Christ's coming to them "they walked in white, for they were worthy" (Rev 3:4-5).

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Philadelphia
promise: Revelation 3:7-13
result: Christ puts down the then-contemporary Jewish persecution (3:9).
He preserves the Church at Philadelphia through the testing which was then about to come upon the whole empire (3:10). God makes his faithful ones "pillars" in the Temple of God.

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Laodicea
promise: Revelation 3:14-21
result: Christ is shown to be knocking at their door as first promised in Matt 24:33 (cf. also James 5:9). If they didn't repent, they were annihilated. Repentant and obedient followers said to become partakers of Christ's heavenly authority.

I could add many other things, but this will do for now. It is clear that the scriptures contain the historic record of the tribulation period, and they explain the relief that Christ's Parousia brought to the churches around the empire, precisely as they were promised. Christ did not fail them.
 
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parousia70

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It’s a warning that he will soon come.
Did He come soon to them or did He fail?

You said He's coming soon now... Do you mean the same thing John meant when he warned Sardis His coming was "soon" or do you mean something different?

In your theory, Jesus MUST have come as a thief during the Sardis Age, for that Was His PROMISE.

Here it is, interpreted to match your theory:
Revelation 3:3
Remember therefore how you [Sardis Age Church of 1517-1648 AD] have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you [Sardis Age Church of 1517-1648 AD] will not watch, I will come upon you [Sardis Age Church of 1517-1648 AD] as a thief, and you [Sardis Age Church of 1517-1648 AD] will not know what hour I will come upon you [Sardis Age Church of 1517-1648 AD].

In your Theory, the Coming of Christ as a thief must have Happened to and for the Sardis Age Church somewhere between 1517-1648 AD
 
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parousia70

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Here's the reality about the Letters to the 7 Churches:

Jesus promised certain rewards/punishments would befall those 7, 1st century Churches via His coming TO THEM.

Note, for example, the promise of Rev.2: 26-29 that Jesus personally made to the actual, literal, 1st century Church at Thyatira. We can notice that Jesus promised the Thyatira congregation that he was coming to them (Rev 2:26) and that at that time he would deal with their false prophetess and destroy her and her followers by ruining them in the great tribulation (2:20-23). They [those actual living breathing 1st century people] were to "hold fast" until he came. Did Jesus not perform what he promised them? Was He issuing empty threats? If Jesus did not come to them as promised then He is a false prophet. The same holds true for the other 1st century congregations that were told specifically that Christ's coming was going to happen to them and bring either curses or blessings (see: Sardis - Rev 3:1-3; Philadelphia - 3:10-11; Ephesus 2:5, etc)

Again, If He did not come to them and meter out those rewards/punishments as He said He would, (as you are claiming He didn't) then He is a false prophet.

Which is why Futurism, to be consistent, needs the letters to the 7 Churches to not be literal Letters TO and FOR those 7, 1st century Churches. Unfortunately for futurism, the Bible does not teach this.

Revelation 2:5
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

He warned them about the need to repent, or He would "come to them quickly" to remove their 'candlestick'.
You cannot Biblically separate the event of His coming to them from the event of His removing their Candlestick.
For sure, if they DID NOT repent, Christ's coming to them served to remove their lampstand. So, if they did not repent, and if Christ did not then follow up by coming and removing their lampstand, then Christ is a proven false prophet, for he plainly threatened to come quickly and remove their lampstand. There is no way around it.

Compare also to Thyatira noted above, where Jesus promised to come and kill off their false prophetess and her followers (Rev 2:20-25). Jesus gave her time to repent and she did not. Therefore Jesus promised to come kill her and her followers, and the godly ones in Thyatira were told to hang on for that coming (Rev 2:25)! I remind everyone reading here that Jesus could not lie to them or break his promises, else He is not Messiah. There is no way around this--Jesus Christ plainly applied his coming to all the first-century Churches mentioned in Revelation.
It is a simple fact.

The Vital information is the Promise Jesus made to "come" to those 1st century congregations and meter out either rewards or punishments TO THEM according to their works.

Do you say He fulfilled those promises to them or not?

You seem to be saying, "No He did not Fulfill His promises to them".

If so, Such is untenable.

I say He did not Fail them, and Came and performed EXACTLY what He said he would, otherwise He is a false prophet.
 
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nolidad

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Except that the Bible says God in these LAST DAYS has spoken to us by His Son.

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

And Peter said the day of Pentecost was the fulfillment of the prophet Joel’s prophecy about God pouring out His spirit in the last days:

Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Shalom.

that does ot make unfulfilled prophecies of the past invalid. Nor does it negate the prophetic things John. Peter, Jude and Paul wrote of as well!
 
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parousia70

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that does ot make unfulfilled prophecies of the past invalid. Nor does it negate the prophetic things John. Peter, Jude and Paul wrote of as well!

If a prophesy does not get fulfilled, it indeed renders the prophesy "invalid".

Deuteronomy 18:22
when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.
 
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chad kincham

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Compare also to Thyatira noted above, where Jesus promised to come and kill off their false prophetess and her followers (Rev 2:20-25). Jesus gave her time to repent and she did not. Therefore Jesus promised to come kill her and her followers, and the godly ones in Thyatira were told to hang on for that coming (Rev 2:25)! I remind everyone reading here that Jesus could not lie to them or break his promises, else He is not Messiah. There is no way around this--Jesus Christ plainly applied his coming to all the first-century Churches mentioned in Revelation.
It is a simple fact.

Isn’t it amazing that Jesus came, raptured the church, set up His millennial kingdom, bound Satan for a thousand years, and now rules the nations with a rod of iron, but no one knows it happened or can tell it happened?

And Mount Olive still has not been split in two, which happens when Jesus returns. Zechariah 14.
 
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nolidad

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If a prophesy does not get fulfilled, it indeed renders the prophesy "invalid".

Deuteronomy 18:22
when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.

True if god set a date certain for it to be fulfilled. But the promise of a physical kingdom, the return of Israel to their land, the restoration of their language and currency, and the salvation of the entire nation are all end time prophecies. so the time is not yet! god does not work on yours or my timeline!

when one looks at all of them they are almost all said to be fulfilled in the last days!
 
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nolidad

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Isn’t it amazing that Jesus came, raptured the church, set up His millennial kingdom, bound Satan for a thousand years, and now rules the nations with a rod of iron, but no one knows it happened or can tell it happened?

And Mount Olive still has not been split in two, which happens when Jesus returns. Zechariah 14.

Ask any Jehovahs Witness and Covenant amillenialist! They both will give you dates when all was fuflilled!

At least the Jw's said it was done in secret and didn't have to retranslate the Scriptures to make it fit their agenda like some do!
 
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parousia70

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Isn’t it amazing that Jesus came

YES it IS!
As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34).

Amazing History.

raptured the church, set up His millennial kingdom

Your interpretations of The "rapture" and "Millennial Kingdom" are unbiblical.

bound Satan

According to my Bible, Satan was cast out, judged, spoiled and bound by Jesus Christ's Earthly Ministry:

John 12:31
Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

1 John 3:8
For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Hebrews 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same;
that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil.

Colossians 2:15
And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Matthew 12:28-29
If I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you...how can anyone enter the strong man's house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. (Jesus here claims to have bound satan and plundered his house)

2 Timothy 1:10
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel

John 16:8,11
And when [the Holy Spirit] is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:...of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged

Acts 26:17-18
To the nations I now send you to open their eyes to turn them from darkness to light and from the power of satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and inheritance among them who are sanctified by faith that is in me.

but no one knows it happened or can tell it happened?

Plenty of us knows it happened, as it was the dominant understanding for the first 1800 years of Christendom.... Claiming it hasn't is a relatively brand new theory in the past 150 years and not rooted in Apostolic or ECF teaching.

And Mount Olive still has not been split in two, which happens when Jesus returns. Zechariah 14.

Or, as Tertullian (A.D. 145-220) wrote, it took place during Christ's earthly Ministry: "'But at night He went out to the Mount of Olives.' For thus had Zechariah pointed out: 'And His feet shall stand in that day on the Mount of Olives' [Zech. xiv. 4].

Tertullian was alluding to the fact that the Olivet prophecy set the stage for the judgment-coming of Christ that would once for all break down the Jewish/Gentile division. Matthew Henry explains the theology behind the prophecy:

The partition-wall between Jew and Gentiles shall be taken away. The mountains about Jerusalem, and particularly this, signified it to be an enclosure, and that it stood in the way of those who would approach to it. Between the Gentiles and Jerusalem this mountain of Bether, of division, stood, Cant. ii. 17. But by the destruction of Jerusalem this mountain shall be made to cleave in the midst, and so the Jewish pale shall be taken down, and the church laid in common with the Gentiles, who were made one with the Jews by the breaking down of this middle wall of partition, Eph. ii. 14.8

Likewise, in Zechariah 14:8 we read:

And it shall come to pass in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the eastern sea, and half of them toward the western sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Are those living waters not a present reality today?:

"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” John 7:38

I'm not still waiting for the fulfillment of that Which Christ already has fulfilled for us, are you?

Have you not drank from those Living Waters?
I have, and I thirst for them no more. John 4:14

The "That day" of Zechariah 14, according to Christ Himself, arrived during His earthly ministry.. Any interpretation of Zechariah 14 that disregards this Biblical fact must be rejected by the Honest Bible expositor.

The Living Waters of Zechariah 14:8 are a present FULFILLED reality. It is not some pie in the sky future thing/event we are still waiting for.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Isn’t it amazing that Jesus came, raptured the church, set up His millennial kingdom, bound Satan for a thousand years, and now rules the nations with a rod of iron, but no one knows it happened or can tell it happened?

And Mount Olive still has not been split in two, which happens when Jesus returns. Zechariah 14.
Since you take Zechariah 14:4 literally and believe it applies to the time after Christ returns, then please tell me how you interpret the following passage.

Zechariah 14:10 The whole land, from Geba to Rimmon, south of Jerusalem, will become like the Arabah. But Jerusalem will be raised up high from the Benjamin Gate to the site of the First Gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the royal winepresses, and will remain in its place. 11 It will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure.

If this describes how things will be during a future earthly millennial kingdom then why does this say that the land described above will never again be destroyed in light of what these passages say:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

Revelation 21:1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.

How can the land mentioned in Zech 14:10-11 never be destroyed again when scripture clearly teaches that the entire earth will be burned up, which I would assume you, as a premil, believe happens after Zech 14:10-11 occurs?
 
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parousia70

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True if god set a date certain for it to be fulfilled.

Where does scripture teach this "date certain" notion?

What about a people certain/ a generation certain, or as in the case of the Revelation and Thessalonian Letters, a Church Certain?

Can those just be thrown out as meaningless, Twisted, stretchable, metaphoric and spiritualized away?

When God promised a specific group of people alive in the first century that a specific event would befall them, is he bound by His own word to fulfill that promise to them, or not?

I say he is.

But the promise of a physical kingdom, the return of Israel to their land, the restoration of their language and currency, and the salvation of the entire nation are all end time prophecies
Happy to examine each of them in detail. Please provide chapter and verse.

so the time is not yet! god does not work on yours or my timeline!
You just contradicted yourself here.

when one looks at all of them they are almost all said to be fulfilled in the last days!
Which were well underway in the 1st century.
Hebrews 1:1-2
 
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chad kincham

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Or, as Tertullian (A.D. 145-220) wrote, it took place during Christ's earthly Ministry: "'But at night He went out to the Mount of Olives.' For thus had Zechariah pointed out: 'And His feet shall stand in that day on the Mount of Olives' [Zech. xiv. 4].

Tertullian was alluding to the fact that the Olivet prophecy set the stage for the judgment-coming of Christ that would once for all break down the Jewish/Gentile division. Matthew Henry explains the theology behind the prophecy:

That’s bogus.

Zechariah 14 says Jesus returns with all the saints, lands on mount Olive and splits it in two physicallly with a huge chasm in the middle, then destroys all the nations of the earth that were destroying Jerusalem, then afterwards the nations of the world, including Egypt, annually come into the city on a feast day, to worship God.

None of that has happened.
 
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nolidad

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Where does scripture teach this "date certain" notion?

What about a people certain/ a generation certain, or as in the case of the Revelation and Thessalonian Letters, a Church Certain?

Can those just be thrown out as meaningless, Twisted, stretchable, metaphoric and spiritualized away?

When God promised a specific group of people alive in the first century that a specific event would befall them, is he bound by His own word to fulfill that promise to them, or not?

I say he is.

Well I was refuting your statement that OT prophecies are invalid because they haven't been fuflilled yet.

Go back and read my first post and find out I spoke on people certain, and church certain.

You just contradicted yourself here.

Not in the least. I was refuting you.

Which were well underway in the 1st century.

Nope. The last age commenced, but the last days as spoken by Jesus and the prophets started May 14, 1948.
 
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chad kincham

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According to my Bible, Satan was cast out, judged, spoiled and bound by Jesus Christ's Earthly Ministry:

Cast out of the third heaven, but is now god of this world, until Jesus returns. 2Corinthians 4:4

Only Christians are not in satans kingdom - the rest of the world is.

Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
 
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