Salvation is really simple
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Justified_By_Christ_Alone
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How about you look back and show me that they didn't? You say this and yet have no evidence to back up your claim... All you want to do is argue against the real gospel.
The only thing I would die for and any real Christian would die for is the true gospel, Once Saved Always Saved, the real Jesus who saved us by his grace.
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Once saved always saved is a relatively new development in Christian theology, popularised by the five points of Calvinism which never existed until the 16th century. Christianity has been around much longer of course, hundreds and thousands of years longer, in fact. John Calvin's views on soteriology are in stark contrast with the views of the early Church, those who compiled the gospels we read today. The early church fathers, those who were taught by the apostles, certainly did not believe in OSAS. In fact, the majority at that time believed that grievious sin after baptism, including apostasy, was unforgivable. So when we talk about martyrs suffering extreme persecution, they were literally clinging onto their faith as if their salvation depended upon it.
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Justified_By_Christ_Alone
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Once Saved Always Saved does not come from Calvinism... It comes from the gospel. Did Jesus impute righteousness onto you or did he not? Was what he did sufficient or not? Are you trusting in works or grace? It's really that simple... You either believe scripture and what it says or you don't. You either believe you have the seal of the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption or you don't... If you don't then you don't have faith. And without faith it is impossible to please God.
Calvinism is just another man-made teaching that mixes some truth with some lies. The gospel has always stayed the same. The gospel means good news by the way.
Romans 11:6
"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."
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If your belief in OSAS has helped you to draw nearer to Christ, mature in your faith and the fruits of the Holy Spirit, if it has given you an uncompromising unwavering faith, then I would say carry on with it.
Personally, I have read the Bible and come to a different conclusion on OSAS. But as long as we persevere in our faith and remain loyal to Christ, I think that is the main thing that really matters.
Personally, I have read the Bible and come to a different conclusion on OSAS. But as long as we persevere in our faith and remain loyal to Christ, I think that is the main thing that really matters.
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Justified_By_Christ_Alone
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It has. By his grace I've been delivered from many things. And the strength of sin is the law, not the strength of sin is grace, as grace is what frees people (1 Corinthians 15:56). But it worries me that you don't believe it. How are you believing the gospel then? That it has been paid for by Christ alone?
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You got it wrong my friend. It's actually works salvation that is too good to be true. All of our works are like a filthy rag. So if you can be saved by giving God that filthy rag, then that's what sounds like too good to be true. LOL
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Justified_By_Christ_Alone
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Works based salvation isn't too good to be true for people... This is what the world teaches. Work to be paid, work to join a religion, etc. This is the norm. Grace? The gospel? That is too good to be true for most people. Therefore few be there that find it. Few go through the narrow way of Jesus alone, because most still trust in their works which is the broad way of religion.
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fhansen
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Well, your “gospel” may be simple, but it has nothing much to do with the Christian faith and the way of salvation, and it most certainly only adds to the confusion already prevailing in Christian circles. For example, Jesus and Paul both share intrinsically related teachings on salvation here:
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” Matt 5:17
“For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.” Matt 5:20
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
“Which ones?” he inquired.
Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.” Matt 19:17-19
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Matt 22:36-40
“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” Rom 2:7-8
“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Rom 2:13
“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.“
Rom 8:12-13
“The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed upin this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.“ Rom 13:9-10
Talk is cheap and the profession of some self-assessed level of faith has little or no value. If we’re truly children of God we must walk the talk, we must live like His children in order to end up in His eternal household. Love is the definition of justice and righteousness for man; we must love, with the help of His grace.
“...if I have a faith that can move mountains but have not love, I am nothing.” 1 Cor 13:2
“Apart from Me you can do nothing” John 15:5
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Danthemailman
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It's not hard to understand. (Acts 16:30-31) It's just hard for many people to ACCEPT.
That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works is not hard to understand. It's just hard for many people to ACCEPT. It's a shame that human pride will not allow such people to place their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to receive Christ through faith.
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GDL
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We receive Christ through Faith (actually Faith-Obedience per 1J3:23 and others) w/o our works and we have Christ formed in us by God's work (Phil2:13), our work (Phil2:12), and the work of other Children of God (1Cor3; Gal4) as commanded.
All of this process is called Salvation. All of this process is through Faith-Obedience. All of this process is the plan of God & work of God implemented & carried on by the Godhead in Grace.
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Danthemailman
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We receive Christ through faith and not by faith + obedience/works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Faith is believing (John 1:12) and obedience which “follows” is works. (Titus 3:5)
There are 3 tenses to salvation which must not get confused. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)
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GDL
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This is where you're missing something. You misunderstand obedience & say it is a work. Faith & obedience in Scripture are in essence 2 sides of the same coin and used in parallel in several areas of Scripture. If you look at 1John3:23 Faith in Jesus Christ has to be simultaneous with obeying God's command to believe upon His name. Your corrected formula is Faith-Obedience, then Faith-Obedience + works. Please note that Titus 3:5 says nothing about obedience.
It's good you see the process of Salvation in the 3 tenses (parts or phases) you state. Note how you use "saved" in each.
One of the problems that arises is sticking with the Justification, Sanctification, Glorification terminology, when each is also referred to as "Salvation" in the Text. Try Philippians 2:12-13 for the "ongoing sanctification" part of the Salvation process and take a close look at the word/command mostly translated as "work out." Better translated it means to "accomplish," and even better is to "accomplish by work." And then decide if we work at our Salvation, or not.
The so-called rightly dividing the Word produces something more like this:
- Faith-Obedience > Initial Salvation/Justification (God in Christ has done all the work including drawing us to believe & granting us to Christ, and all of Salvation is His Plan established by His work)
- Abiding Faith-Obedience + work (God's, ours, fellow-believers) > Salvation/Justification > Glorification
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Danthemailman
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Multiple acts of obedience which "follow" having been saved through faith and are produced out of faith are works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)
You sound dangerously close to teaching salvation by faith and works.
It's one thing to obey God's command to believe upon His name unto salvation (John 1:12) and it's another thing to obey multiple commands by God "after" we have been saved. Paul speaks of people’s initial response of choosing to believe the gospel as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as "obeying the gospel" (Romans 10:16; 1:16) yet this is not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which "follow" believing the gospel unto salvation.
My formula needs no correction. Choosing to place our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation is the act of obedience which saves. We are not saved by multiple acts of obedience/works which "follow" having been saved through faith. Titus 3:5 says works of righteousness (works which are done in righteousness) that are done out of obedience to God.
Salvation is not a process of being saved by faith + works. Justification is not a process, yet ongoing sanctification is a process. Being saved from POWER of sin in no ways suggests that we are saved by works.
3 tenses to salvation still does not imply that salvation is a process of being saved by faith and works.
Notice that Paul said to "work out" your salvation and not "work for" your salvation. The Greek verb rendered "work out" means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing the process of ongoing sanctification in which we are set apart for God's work and being conformed to the image of Christ. This conforming to Christ involves the work of the person, but it is still God working in the believer to produce more of a godly character and life in the person who has already been justified by faith. Verse 13 - for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
Regardless of how far we have advanced in the process of ongoing sanctification, whether still babes in Christ or mature in Christ, we are still justified by faith. (Romans 5:1) Where justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous, ongoing sanctification is a process. So "works salvation" is not being taught here. The idea is to progress to the finish or completion in spiritual growth and maturity. When we "work out" at the gym, we exercise to develop our body that we already have and not to get a body. Farmers "work" the land, not in order to get the land, but to develop the land they already have.
People who use the word "initial" salvation typically imply that final salvation is based on one's performance/works. God does draw us and enable/grant us to Christ (John 6:44,65) by his work, yet from beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works.
I suspect you are teaching salvation by faith and works. Please tell me that is not what you are teaching.
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GDL
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I either am or am not. Dangerously close makes no difference. The Jews built fences around the Law to keep themselves as far away as possible from trespassing. Jesus brought them back from their traditions to the Law. No need for fences here. Just the Text.
I'm saying what I see the Text saying about faith, obedience, work, and salvation. And I'm not concerned any longer with other teachings. I learned from them and then had to unlearn some of them after I went back to school to learn Greek exegesis and then worked at it for a few decades. Oddly enough, the unlearning is one of the hardest things to do. The loyalties we build to theological camps are astounding and we can see the outcome of them on nearly every theological thread on these forums.
That's a lot of work for you to clarify something that doesn't need to be clarified. You've just confirmed what I said, Faith & Obedience are so closely tied together as to be virtually inseparable. If Faith is not a work, which it's not, then neither is obedience a work, which it's not. We begin in Faith-Obedience, we progress in Faith-Obedience + works, we end in Faith-Obedience. By recognizing obedience to the gospel, you're farther ahead in this matter than you're letting yourself recognize.
You're not concerned by calling obedience an "act of obedience" involved in our salvation? This would get you burned at the stake by some theological camps.
Even Faith + Obedience is not Faith alone. I can guaranty you that this would also get you staked in these same camps.
Your formula does need correction: By attaching obedience to works as you've done ("obedience/works"), then saying choosing to place our faith is the act of obedience, you've just said one is saved by your formula and you are thereby proclaiming a faith + obedience/works salvation.
Maybe my formula needs correction also, to: Faith/Obedience + Works. Obviously we could refine this because there is a close connection between the 3 words when works is involved. But the Text does not (as far as I'm aware) use Obedience in parallel with Works as it does Faith & Obedience.
The only way your formula can be modified to get you back closer to where you need to be is: Faith + Obedience + Works. Thereby you can drop the works and still have Faith + Obedience. But obedience/works does not work for what you've said re: being saved. Faith/Obedience works also.
This is playing semantics, Dan.
Firstly, "work out" is an English translation that is far from being the more precise translation of the Greek word kategrazomai. I don't know where you got the meaning you quote, but it's close enough to what I said (accomplish by work). So, we'll use your referenced meaning.
Next, you're doing what I said you'd do, and what others with your sensitivities do: you change the wording of the Text from "salvation" to "sanctification." Using your referenced meaning of kategrazomai, we have a command "to continually work to bring "our salvation" to completion or fruition." And I already referenced verse 13, so maybe you're clarifying for yourself, but not for me.
Thirdly, there's no need to clarify with any prepositions like "for" here. Just use the translation with the meaning you've found & let it say what it says. We work with God as commanded to complete our [gifted] salvation.
I'm going to address the salvation issues without further quoting you:
I think it's odd, but understandable, that you see the 3 tenses of salvation, but don't see the process. We were saved, we are being saved, we will be saved is clearly an experiential process for us, based in an overall plan of God, which He has gifted to us by His Grace. And Phil2:12-13 clearly commands us to work with God to accomplish our salvation in the "we are being saved" tense.
If I say "initial salvation" to clarify that I'm talking about "we were saved," then this is hardly wrong. Initial = were saved. Experiential = being saved. Future = will be saved. Change the terminology to suit you, if you will, but these correlate with the 3 tenses.
In Eph2:5 & 8, when Paul says "you have been saved" and that Salvation is God's Grace Gift through faith not works:
- What tense(s) is he talking about?
- Are you aware of the debate about the grammar in 2:8 - is "faith" the gift OR is "by grace you have been saved through faith" the gift?
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Danthemailman
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So do you teach that man is saved through faith, not works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) or by faith and works?
Man is saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Do I get an "amen" from you or more side stepping?
A lot of work? I gave you are clear and concise answer using two short paragraphs. So how is obedience not a work? If I obey the Lord by accomplishing multiple acts of obedience, how is that not works? It's one thing to obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel and it's another thing to obey the Lord by accomplishing multiple acts of obedience/works after we believe the gospel.
No, because choosing to believe the gospel is the act of obedience that saves.
Salvation by faith + obedience/works is not salvation through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone.
I'm not concerned about that.
Not at all. The obedient act of choosing to believe the gospel is not works. (Romans 10:16; 1:16) Multiple acts of obedience which "follow" believing the gospel are works.
If the Lord commands us to love our neighbor as ourself (Matthew 22:39) and we do this by clothing and feeding a brother or sister who is in need of clothing and food, was that not an act of obedience and a work? (James 2:15-18)
You seem to be making this out to be much more complicated than it really is.
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Danthemailman
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Again, work out is not work for and ongoing sanctification is the second tense of salvation. It certainly is clarified for me. Not sure why you are having such a hard time understanding, unless you teach salvation by faith and works.
We work with God to complete our ongoing sanctification which is the second tense of salvation. Yet whether still babes in Christ or fully mature in Christ, we are still saved by grace through faith, not works.
I already explained that.
I didn't change anything. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) we are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification) and we will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification). Ongoing sanctification is a process, but justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous.
You "have been saved" is past tense, with ongoing present results.
Yes, I am aware. Some say grace is the gift. Some say faith is the gift and some say salvation is the gift. I believe the Amplified Bible sums it up nicely. Ephesians 2:8 (AMPC) - For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God.
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GDL
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God's Salvation Plan for man & His entire creation was created & established by God through the work of the Godhead apart from man. God's Salvation Plan for man is comprehensive in scope & process, and by God's Grace provides for man's Initial Salvation/Justification, Ongoing Salvation/Sanctification, Future Salvation/Glorification.
Man is dead in his sins & imprisoned under subjection to the law of sin & death. There is no work, no work of righteousness/law that man can do to alleviate this condition/free himself/save himself. Only the work, grace & mercy of God can save man.
Man is initially saved/justified/placed by God into God's Salvation Plan through Faith that Jesus is the Resurrected Christ / Obedience to God's command to believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ (thus Faith/Obedience) by God's grace & work in teaching man/drawing man to Christ & granting man to Christ pursuant to His grace as His gift to man.
Then, through commanded, abiding Faith/Obedience + Works, or Faith/Obedience/Works, the new believer grows in Faith/Obedience/Love for God & thus Love for neighbor & fellow-believer, within God's Salvation Plan, in the process of being saved/sanctified, wherein he works with God, who is working within him, and fellow-believers/God's servants, until the believer who has abided in Faith/Obedience/Works takes his last breath and at God's timing will be saved/glorified by God.
Do you teach that man does not work to accomplish his salvation with fear & trembling as God operates within him to both will & do what pleases God?
What you get is an observation that you repetitively quote a few verses as the entire scope of soteriology & that you side-stepped my request for more detailed discussion & explanation of precisely what Eph2 is dealing with re: "you have been saved."
What you also get is further observation that you side-stepped concluding discussion re: the command (katergazesthe) to accomplish by work our salvation per Phil2:12-13.
Since we're instructed that our salvation is by faith/obedience apart from our work AND we're commanded to accomplish our salvation by our work, do you think there's something to figure out re: works-salvation to maintain precision in our thinking from our Text?
To add another piece to this, does it trouble you that Jesus in John 6:27 commanded unbelievers to work to receive the gift He gives?
Seems to me our Text says something like this re: God's Salvation Plan/Gift:
- God's Gift of Salvation (providing for man's Salvation/Justification, Salvation/Sanctification, Salvation/Glorification) is God's Plan created & established by God apart from man
- God is working to draw man to His Son Jesus Christ by teaching him about Jesus Christ so He can by His grace & mercy give man His Gift of Salvation
- God commands man to work to receive God's Gift of Salvation
- God gives His Gift of Salvation to those who hear & learn from Him and believe as God commands that Jesus is His Resurrected Christ/King
- God works within man who in abiding Faith/Obedience works with God as God commands to accomplish God's Gift of Salvation
- Pursuant to God's Gift of Salvation, God at God's time will Save/Glorify those He has saved
Likewise. Also, you are minimizing soteriology to a few verses.
What I'm working to do in the Text is figure out what He says, so I can know from Him instead of from these various camps that continually battle against each other. If I'm going to be involved in such battles of thinking, it'll be from the Text and not from what different camps teach.
So, what exactly are these Eph2 verses saying about Salvation? Does the tense of "saved" tell us anything?
What exactly is Phil2 saying about Salvation? Does the tense of the command tell us anything?
I believe they both tell us Truth and both need to be harmonized & understood. How about you?
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GDL
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Ongoing sanctification salvation is a process. Why change what the Text says?
We work with God to complete our ongoing sanctification salvation which is the second tense of salvation. Why change what the Text says?
Actually the tense is a perfect paraphrastic & there are no ongoing results (past the present - as you seem to note) in a perfect tense. But this is another discussion. The emphasis can be on the past event or the current state based upon the past event.
So, let's take these as they're translated, which is probably the best way to translate them, so, they're both (2:5 & 2:8) pointing to something(s) that took place in the past (and had results that had lasted at the time of writing).
Since we have God's Salvation Plan to deal with, and 3 tenses of Salvation within His Plan, what are these 2 verses pointing to, exactly?
BTW, I agree that "by grace you have been saved through faith" is the gift, but I still pay attention to arguments about faith being the/a gift. I don't use the amplified bible, nor do I rely on any English translation.
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Danthemailman
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I did not change anything. Ongoing sanctification is the 2nd tense of salvation, which is a process, unlike the 1st tense of salvation, justification which is not a process. People who stress that salvation "in general" (including justification) is a process usually end up teaching that salvation is either obtained by works or maintained by works or both.
The text is referring to ongoing sanctification, (2nd tense of salvation) hence, "work out" your salvation, so I am simply interpreting the text and not changing the text.
We "have been saved" - perfect tense - past completed action (the moment we place our faith in Christ for salvation). The perfect tense both describes past, definite tense as well as present tense with current implications.
I'm sorry, but you lost me. Not sure why you are making this complicated. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) we are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification) we will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification).
It sounds like you basically agree with the Amplified Bible.
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