Darkness Shall Cover the Land and the Earth Quake at the Coming of the Day of the LORD

swainkas · Nov 4, 2020

Old Testament

Amos 8:9 And it will come about on that day,” declares the Lord God,
“That I will make the sun go down at noon,
And make the earth dark in broad daylight.

Joel 2:10-11 Before them the earth quakes, The heavens tremble,
The sun and the moon become dark, And the stars lose their brightness.
The Lord utters His voice before His army; His camp is indeed very great,
For mighty is one who carries out His word. The day of the Lord is indeed great and very awesome, And who can endure it?

Joel 2:31 The sun will be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood,
Before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.

Joel 3:15-16 The sun and moon have become dark,
And the stars have lost their brightness.
16 The Lord roars from Zion
And utters His voice from Jerusalem,
And the heavens and the earth quake.
But the Lord is a refuge for His people,
And a stronghold for the sons of Israel.

Isaiah 64:3 When You did awesome things which we did not expect,
You came down, the mountains quaked at Your presence.

These Old Testament verses are foreboding of strange things in the skies before the great and terrible day of the LORD. They also speak to an earthquake at the coming of the LORD. Christians assume that these verses are about Christ’s second coming, but should see the relevance of these references immediately, because the day Jesus was on the cross, the sun was turned into darkness and there was an earthquake.

Matthew 27:45-54 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour… And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and gave up His spirit. And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split. Also the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many. Now as for the centurion and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the other things that were happening, they became extremely frightened and said, “Truly this was the Son of God!”

Though there is no documentation of the moon turning into the color of blood while Christ was on the cross, (the vision of the prophet or the historian is blurry on this account) we do have an obvious reference here to the darkness that enveloped that part of the world while Christ was hanging on the cross (Matthew 27:45-54). The fulfillment of this predicted darkness, and the earthquake while Jesus was on the cross should lead some to at least consider the possibility that the great and terrible day of the LORD has indeed come. Why else would God have documented these details in the New Testament if they were irrelevant? They must be telling us something.

parousia70 · Nov 5, 2020

This is how the prophets always described God's Judgment upon nations & Kings.

In all previous Day of the Lord events that were fulfilled as the Judgement of God upon Nations, using human armies as His agents, the language used is the same; Sun Darkening, Stars falling, earth splitting, mountains melting, universe collapsing, God riding a cloud, wielding His sword, killing His enemies with His brightness, etc etc....

It is only from the later generations, removed from the genre of Jewish apocalyptic literature, that we find the false, over literalization of such language that was used time and again by the Prophets of God in metaphoric ways to describe the fall of a nation.

The best way to understand apocalyptic writing is to study the many comings of God during the Old Testament times and see how that language is used in past situations. Once we see the way the prophets spoke of God's comings down during the Old Testament times, we are better equipped to think about how God comes all throughout history and even at the end of time. Study the following comings of God in history and think about the way in which the prophets use familiar doom language in each case:

God Comes in a Cloud Against Ancient Egypt - 700s BC
Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

God Comes to End Saul's Kingdom - 1000 BC
Then the earth shook and quaked, the foundations of heaven were trembling and were shaken, because He was angry. Smoke went up out of His nostrils, fire from His mouth devoured; coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down with thick darkness under His feet. And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind. And He made darkness canopies around Him, a mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky. From the brightness before Him coals of fire were kindled. The LORD thundered from heaven, and the Most High uttered His voice. And He sent out arrows, and scattered them, Lightning, and routed them. Then the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were laid bare by the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of His nostrils. (2 Sam 22:8-16)

God Comes to Judge Nineveh - 600s BC
The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries, and He reserves wrath for His enemies...In whirlwind and storm is His way, and clouds are the dust beneath His feet. He rebukes the sea and makes it dry; He dries up all the rivers. Bashan and Carmel wither; The blossoms of Lebanon wither. Mountains quake because of Him and the hills dissolve; Indeed the earth is upheaved by His presence, the world and all the inhabitants in it. (Nahum 1:2-5)

God Comes to Judge Egypt in the Time of Nebuchadnezzar - 600s BC
The day is near, even the day of the LORD is near; It will be a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations. A sword will come upon Egypt, and anguish will be in Ethiopia; When the slain fall in Egypt...And they will know that I am the LORD, when I set a fire in Egypt...I will also make the hordes of Egypt cease by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his people with him, the most ruthless of the nations, will be brought in to destroy the land; and they will draw their swords against Egypt and fill the land with the slain. (Ezekiel 30:3-4,8, 10-11)

God Comes to Judge Israel at the Time of the Exile - 500s BC
As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)

God Comes To Judge Ancient Babylon Using the Medes - 500s BC
Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty! Therefore all hands will be feeble, and every human heart will melt, and they will be dismayed. Pangs and agony will seize them; they will be in anguish like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at one another; their faces will be aflame. See, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the earth a desolation, and to destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light. I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity...Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the LORD of hosts in the day of his fierce anger. Like a hunted gazelle, or like sheep with no one to gather them, all will turn to their own people, and all will flee to their own lands. Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered, and their wives ravished. See, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold. Their bows will slaughter the young men; they will have no mercy on the fruit of the womb; their eyes will not pity children. And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the splendor and pride of the Chaldeans, will be like Sodom and Gomorrah when God overthrew them. (Isaiah 13:6-11, 13,15-19)

God Comes During the Maccabean Period
For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

God Comes to Judge Jerusalem at AD 70
I saw, and behold a white cloud; and upon the cloud one sitting like to the Son of man, having on his head a crown of gold, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the temple crying with a loud voice to him that sat upon the cloud: Thrust in thy sickle, and reap, because the hour is come to reap: for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust his sickle into the earth, and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire; and he cried with a loud voice to him that had the sharp sickle, saying: Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vineyard of the earth; because the grapes thereof are ripe. And the angel thrust in his sharp sickle into the earth, and gathered the vineyard of the earth, and cast it into the great press of the wrath of God: And the press was trodden without the city (Revelation 14:14-20)

As we see from this brief survey of the cloud comings of God in history, they all follow a similar pattern, nature, and experience: trumpets, clouds, darkening of the constellations, shaking of earth's foundations, great tribulation and distress, God's coming down with his armies. The apocalyptic language is graphic, filled with doom, and repeated at each of God's comings.

These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others: Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16). The Father entered into judgments with Egypt and Assyria in a spectacular coming in Isaiah 31. Habakkuk's depiction of Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai is nothing less than apocalyptic (Hab 3:3-16). Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20).

swainkas · Nov 5, 2020

parousia70 said:
This is how the prophets always described God's Judgment upon nations & Kings.

In all previous Day of the Lord events that were fulfilled as the Judgement of God upon Nations, using human armies as His agents, the language used is the same; Sun Darkening, Stars falling, earth splitting, mountains melting, universe collapsing, God riding a cloud, wielding His sword, killing His enemies with His brightness, etc etc....

It is only from the later generations, removed from the genre of Jewish apocalyptic literature, that we find the false, over literalization of such language that was used time and again by the Prophets of God in metaphoric ways to describe the fall of a nation.

The best way to understand apocalyptic writing is to study the many comings of God during the Old Testament times and see how that language is used in past situations. Once we see the way the prophets spoke of God's comings down during the Old Testament times, we are better equipped to think about how God comes all throughout history and even at the end of time. Study the following comings of God in history and think about the way in which the prophets use familiar doom language in each case:

God Comes in a Cloud Against Ancient Egypt - 700s BC
Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

God Comes to End Saul's Kingdom - 1000 BC
Then the earth shook and quaked, the foundations of heaven were trembling and were shaken, because He was angry. Smoke went up out of His nostrils, fire from His mouth devoured; coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down with thick darkness under His feet. And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind. And He made darkness canopies around Him, a mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky. From the brightness before Him coals of fire were kindled. The LORD thundered from heaven, and the Most High uttered His voice. And He sent out arrows, and scattered them, Lightning, and routed them. Then the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were laid bare by the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of His nostrils. (2 Sam 22:8-16)

God Comes to Judge Nineveh - 600s BC
The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries, and He reserves wrath for His enemies...In whirlwind and storm is His way, and clouds are the dust beneath His feet. He rebukes the sea and makes it dry; He dries up all the rivers. Bashan and Carmel wither; The blossoms of Lebanon wither. Mountains quake because of Him and the hills dissolve; Indeed the earth is upheaved by His presence, the world and all the inhabitants in it. (Nahum 1:2-5)

God Comes to Judge Egypt in the Time of Nebuchadnezzar - 600s BC
The day is near, even the day of the LORD is near; It will be a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations. A sword will come upon Egypt, and anguish will be in Ethiopia; When the slain fall in Egypt...And they will know that I am the LORD, when I set a fire in Egypt...I will also make the hordes of Egypt cease by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his people with him, the most ruthless of the nations, will be brought in to destroy the land; and they will draw their swords against Egypt and fill the land with the slain. (Ezekiel 30:3-4,8, 10-11)

God Comes to Judge Israel at the Time of the Exile - 500s BC
As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)

God Comes To Judge Ancient Babylon Using the Medes - 500s BC
Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty! Therefore all hands will be feeble, and every human heart will melt, and they will be dismayed. Pangs and agony will seize them; they will be in anguish like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at one another; their faces will be aflame. See, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the earth a desolation, and to destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light. I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity...Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the LORD of hosts in the day of his fierce anger. Like a hunted gazelle, or like sheep with no one to gather them, all will turn to their own people, and all will flee to their own lands. Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered, and their wives ravished. See, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold. Their bows will slaughter the young men; they will have no mercy on the fruit of the womb; their eyes will not pity children. And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the splendor and pride of the Chaldeans, will be like Sodom and Gomorrah when God overthrew them. (Isaiah 13:6-11, 13,15-19)

God Comes During the Maccabean Period
For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

God Comes to Judge Jerusalem at AD 70
I saw, and behold a white cloud; and upon the cloud one sitting like to the Son of man, having on his head a crown of gold, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the temple crying with a loud voice to him that sat upon the cloud: Thrust in thy sickle, and reap, because the hour is come to reap: for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust his sickle into the earth, and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire; and he cried with a loud voice to him that had the sharp sickle, saying: Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vineyard of the earth; because the grapes thereof are ripe. And the angel thrust in his sharp sickle into the earth, and gathered the vineyard of the earth, and cast it into the great press of the wrath of God: And the press was trodden without the city (Revelation 14:14-20)

As we see from this brief survey of the cloud comings of God in history, they all follow a similar pattern, nature, and experience: trumpets, clouds, darkening of the constellations, shaking of earth's foundations, great tribulation and distress, God's coming down with his armies. The apocalyptic language is graphic, filled with doom, and repeated at each of God's comings.

These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others: Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16). The Father entered into judgments with Egypt and Assyria in a spectacular coming in Isaiah 31. Habakkuk's depiction of Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai is nothing less than apocalyptic (Hab 3:3-16). Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20).

Thanks for the thoughtful response. The references were very helpful.

BABerean2 · Nov 6, 2020

swainkas said:
The fulfillment of this predicted darkness, and the earthquake while Jesus was on the cross should lead some to at least consider the possibility that the great and terrible day of the LORD has indeed come. Why else would God have documented these details in the New Testament if they were irrelevant? They must be telling us something.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
The Seventh Bowl
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

If we still have islands and mountains on this planet, the earthquake above has not yet occurred.

.

fwGod · Nov 6, 2020

The darkness that covers the land is referring to a temporary solar eclipse. Joel 2:31.

Amos 8:9 is not to be taken literally. Or else explain how the sun would 'go down at noon' would not make the sun rise early on the other side of the earth. Which would defeat the words of Amos speaking of darkness on the land being true.

Joel 2:10-11 corresponds to the text in Revelation 6:12-17, the sixth seal. Before the Second Coming of Christ. Revelation 19:11-16.

Joel 3:15-16 corresponds to Revelation 12:13-17. When the Second Coming occurs Revelation 16:13-16 describes the ultimate battle between Jesus and the saints against the Antichrist army.

Isaiah 64:3 is speaking of when God was at Mount Sinai for the giving of the Tablet of the ten commandments after God had brought the Jews out of slavery to the Egyptians.

Christians assume that these verses are about Christ’s second coming,

It's not an assumption.

However, yours is.

but should see the relevance of these references immediately, because the day Jesus was on the cross, the sun was turned into darkness and there was an earthquake.

However, you aren't including all other scriptures that have (darkness and earthquakes) that prove that it's not talking about when Jesus was on the cross.

Joel is talking about the future called 'the day of the Lord' which Revelation describes in detail.

Jesus spoke (Mat.24:6) of future beyond the cross when there will be wars, rumors of wars, famines and earthquakes. Jesus also said in Mat.24:27 "Just as lightening flashes from the east to the west so shall the coming of the Son of Man be."

He spoke that in answer to the disciples question (Mat.24:3) "What shall be the time of your Coming and of the end of the age?"

They didn't ask what shall be the time of your crucifixion and what shall take place then?

Joel spoke of events before the time of Jesus Second Coming when he said "And it shall be that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Which corresponds to Mat.24:22 and including the verses 16-21.

But of course in a secondary sense Joel 2:32 and Acts 2:21 is also applicable for anyone at anytime as the apostle Paul stated in Romans 10:9-13.

Peter quoted Joel on the day of Pentecost. "The sun be turned to darkness (solar eclipse) and the moon into blood (lunar eclipse) before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come."

That day is Revelation 19:11:16.

Concerning the future events of His Second Coming, Jesus said in Mat.24:27 He will come but before He comes in 29 that the sun will be darkened (solar eclipse) and the moon not give it's light (lunar eclipse) and the stars will fall from the sky (Revelation 6:13) and the powers of the heavens will be shaken (Revelation 12:3-4, 7-9)."

The verses in Ephes.6:12 corresponds with Rev.6:7-9 which are the powers of the heavens. And also corresponds with what Jesus said in Lk.10:18.

Timtofly · Nov 6, 2020

fwGod said:
The darkness that covers the land is referring to a temporary solar eclipse. Joel 2:31.

Amos 8:9 is not to be taken literally. Or else explain how the sun would 'go down at noon' would not make the sun rise early on the other side of the earth. Which would defeat the words of Amos speaking of darkness on the land being true.

Joel 2:10-11 corresponds to the text in Revelation 6:12-17, the sixth seal. Before the Second Coming of Christ. Revelation 19:11-16.

Joel 3:15-16 corresponds to Revelation 12:13-17. When the Second Coming occurs Revelation 16:13-16 describes the ultimate battle between Jesus and the saints against the Antichrist army.

Isaiah 64:3 is speaking of when God was at Mount Sinai for the giving of the Tablet of the ten commandments after God had brought the Jews out of slavery to the Egyptians.
It's not an assumption.

However, yours is.
However, you aren't including all other scriptures that have (darkness and earthquakes) that prove that it's not talking about when Jesus was on the cross.

Joel is talking about the future called 'the day of the Lord' which Revelation describes in detail.

Jesus spoke (Mat.24:6) of future beyond the cross when there will be wars, rumors of wars, famines and earthquakes. Jesus also said in Mat.24:27 "Just as lightening flashes from the east to the west so shall the coming of the Son of Man be."

He spoke that in answer to the disciples question (Mat.24:3) "What shall be the time of your Coming and of the end of the age?"

They didn't ask what shall be the time of your crucifixion and what shall take place then?

Joel spoke of events before the time of Jesus Second Coming when he said "And it shall be that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Which corresponds to Mat.24:22 and including the verses 16-21.

But of course in a secondary sense Joel 2:32 and Acts 2:21 is also applicable for anyone at anytime as the apostle Paul stated in Romans 10:9-13.

Peter quoted Joel on the day of Pentecost. "The sun be turned to darkness (solar eclipse) and the moon into blood (lunar eclipse) before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come."

That day is Revelation 19:11:16.

Concerning the future events of His Second Coming, Jesus said in Mat.24:27 He will come but before He comes in 29 that the sun will be darkened (solar eclipse) and the moon not give it's light (lunar eclipse) and the stars will fall from the sky (Revelation 6:13) and the powers of the heavens will be shaken (Revelation 12:3-4, 7-9)."

The verses in Ephes.6:12 corresponds with Rev.6:7-9 which are the powers of the heavens. And also corresponds with what Jesus said in Lk.10:18.

The second coming is in the 6th seal. The total eclipse is the brightness of God on the throne. No need for the sun and moon, because God eclipses them into "nothingness".

fwGod · Nov 7, 2020

Timtofly said:
The second coming is in the 6th seal.

Only when the words in the text are not precisely paid attention to. When you went to grade school didn't the teacher test you with the text and say "Which of these things are not like the others?"

If you had that lesson I'm guessing that you must not of passed that test?

The total eclipse is the brightness of God on the throne.

It doesn't say that. Neither can it be honestly stated that it happens every time there is a solar eclipse.

But for those who just interpret things anyway they want to irregardless of the text.. then I guess anything goes.

The scientifics of a solar eclipse is when the moon blocks the rays of light coming from the sun creating a cone of darkness that covers over an area of the earth.

I wonder how you'd explain a lunar eclipse. Other than the scientifics that the moon moves into the earth's shadow.

No need for the sun and moon, because God eclipses them into "nothingness".

Without a scripture(s) given from which that interpretation is derived. It can't be accepted as exegesis.

I'm skeptical that it would be accepted as exegesis even if a scripture was provided. It's like, how do you get from the scripture to the interpretation? You don't make a logical attempt to explain your thinking process by which you arrive at your interpretation.

You'd be a pushover if Jesus had wondered elsewhere and you had been the one that satan found and tempted in the wilderness. You'd use your imagination and wonky interpretations instead of saying "It is written" and quote the correct verse.
I venture to say that it might have been that when satan gave his interpretation to you, you'd of jumped off the highplace to your death. But God forbid that any unfortunate event of anything like that would actually happen to you.

I suspect that the scripture that you aren't giving is Revelation 21:23. It doesn't say that the sun and moon will be eclipsed into nothingness.

It says that the city (Jerusalem) had no need of them. The city, not that the whole planet had no need of them.

At that time that Rev.21:23 is talking about, the sun and moon will still be used for all other places on the earth that is outside the area of Jerusalem, the place where Jesus will have His throne.

Genesis said that the sun and moon are to keep the days, the times, and the seasons. They are to warm the earth, make the plants grow, and give people a 24/7 time difference of work and sleep, therefore they will both always be needed.

Timtofly · Nov 7, 2020

fwGod said:
Only when the words in the text are not precisely paid attention to. When you went to grade school didn't the teacher test you with the text and say "Which of these things are not like the others?"

If you had that lesson I'm guessing that you must not of passed that test?
It doesn't say that. Neither can it be honestly stated that it happens every time there is a solar eclipse.

But for those who just interpret things anyway they want to irregardless of the text.. then I guess anything goes.

The scientifics of a solar eclipse is when the moon blocks the rays of light coming from the sun creating a cone of darkness that covers over an area of the earth.

I wonder how you'd explain a lunar eclipse. Other than the scientifics that the moon moves into the earth's shadow.
Without a scripture(s) given from which that interpretation is derived. It can't be accepted as exegesis.

I'm skeptical that it would be accepted as exegesis even if a scripture was provided. It's like, how do you get from the scripture to the interpretation? You don't make a logical attempt to explain your thinking process by which you arrive at your interpretation.

You'd be a pushover if Jesus had wondered elsewhere and you had been the one that satan found and tempted in the wilderness. You'd use your imagination and wonky interpretations instead of saying "It is written" and quote the correct verse.
I venture to say that it might have been that when satan gave his interpretation to you, you'd of jumped off the highplace to your death. But God forbid that any unfortunate event of anything like that would actually happen to you.

I suspect that the scripture that you aren't giving is Revelation 21:23. It doesn't say that the sun and moon will be eclipsed into nothingness.

It says that the city (Jerusalem) had no need of them. The city, not that the whole planet had no need of them.

At that time that Rev.21:23 is talking about, the sun and moon will still be used for all other places on the earth that is outside the area of Jerusalem, the place where Jesus will have His throne.

Genesis said that the sun and moon are to keep the days, the times, and the seasons. They are to warm the earth, make the plants grow, and give people a 24/7 time difference of work and sleep, therefore they will both always be needed.

So you jump from the city not needing the sun and moon and create your own scenario? How is that different from my post where the brightness of God on the throne and assuming Paradise is also not hovering over the earth causes the sun and moon to be irrelevant?

Assuming that Paradise is also a 1,200 mile cube obstructing most of the view of the middle east, how much more outside of the middle east would a 1,200 mile square cube block out the sun and moon if it is a few miles above the surface of the earth?

Did a school teacher ever explain the relevance of a cube of that magnitude or the fact that God on the throne is brighter than billions of stars?

Acts 26:13. 2 Thessalonians 2:8. Matthew 17:2. Daniel 12:3

It would be logical that when both God on the throne and the Lamb together bring the light of their glory with them, there is a reason the rest of the sky became darkened. It is a contrasting parallel of what it is like to be without God and to be in the presence of God. Compared to God and Jesus Christ, the sun and moon are as darkness.

Zao is life · Nov 7, 2020

swainkas said:
Old Testament

Amos 8:9 And it will come about on that day,” declares the Lord God,
“That I will make the sun go down at noon,
And make the earth dark in broad daylight.

Joel 2:10-11 Before them the earth quakes, The heavens tremble,
The sun and the moon become dark, And the stars lose their brightness.
The Lord utters His voice before His army; His camp is indeed very great,
For mighty is one who carries out His word. The day of the Lord is indeed great and very awesome, And who can endure it?

Joel 2:31 The sun will be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood,
Before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.

Joel 3:15-16 The sun and moon have become dark,
And the stars have lost their brightness.
16 The Lord roars from Zion
And utters His voice from Jerusalem,
And the heavens and the earth quake.
But the Lord is a refuge for His people,
And a stronghold for the sons of Israel.

Isaiah 64:3 When You did awesome things which we did not expect,
You came down, the mountains quaked at Your presence.

These Old Testament verses are foreboding of strange things in the skies before the great and terrible day of the LORD. They also speak to an earthquake at the coming of the LORD. Christians assume that these verses are about Christ’s second coming, but should see the relevance of these references immediately, because the day Jesus was on the cross, the sun was turned into darkness and there was an earthquake.

Matthew 27:45-54 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour… And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and gave up His spirit. And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split. Also the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many. Now as for the centurion and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the other things that were happening, they became extremely frightened and said, “Truly this was the Son of God!”

Though there is no documentation of the moon turning into the color of blood while Christ was on the cross, (the vision of the prophet or the historian is blurry on this account) we do have an obvious reference here to the darkness that enveloped that part of the world while Christ was hanging on the cross (Matthew 27:45-54). The fulfillment of this predicted darkness, and the earthquake while Jesus was on the cross should lead some to at least consider the possibility that the great and terrible day of the LORD has indeed come. Why else would God have documented these details in the New Testament if they were irrelevant? They must be telling us something.

There could have been a blood moon the day the Lord was crucified. Today's astronomers would be able to check to see if there was, if they knew the exact date. There was an earthquake and the earth was covered in darkness. The judgment of the world had come, and the judgment fell on Jesus:

Jn 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Jesus had given His life for the sins of the world. Our judgment fell on Jesus.

John 3
14 But even as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up,
15 so that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.
18 He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil.

The Great and terrible day of the LORD had come.

However, "Time" exists in eternity, and is enveloped by eternity. By way of example, if eternity is the air, "Time" is one aspect of the contents of the gas balloon that floats around in it, or exists in the hour glass suspended in eternity:

So what has been before, will be again, and when studying Biblical prophecy, it's imperative not to view "Time" from a linear point of view, or from a starting point to an end point, but from the point of view of eternity, which is represented by the white background surrounding the hour glass below:

Some prophecies have only one fulfillment in linear time. Others have repeats. Different time in linear time, different conditions surrounding the events, but prophesied beforehand.

swainkas · Nov 8, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
The Great and terrible day of the LORD had come.
/QUOTE]

Thanks for your comments. I think we as Christians are guilty of not appreciating Christ's first coming enough. I mean that God Almighty, who is outside of time and space, came into time and space for a short period of time. He then allowed His own creation to slap His face, spit on Him, whip Him and crucify Him. And He did all this to take the sin of mankind on His shoulders and to judge the world and Satan for their sins.

Yes, the great and terrible day of the Lord has come. All the earthquakes and famines and wars and bloodshed to come do not equate to one stripe on His back. I wish we would truly appreciate this as Christians.

Zao is life · Nov 8, 2020

swainkas said:
Yes, the great and terrible day of the Lord has come. All the earthquakes and famines and wars and bloodshed to come do not equate to one stripe on His back. I wish we would truly appreciate this as Christians.

I agree with those sentiments 100%

swainkas · Nov 8, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
There could have been a blood moon the day the Lord was crucified. Today's astronomers would be able to check to see if there was, if they knew the exact date. There was an earthquake and the earth was covered in darkness. The judgment of the world had come, and the judgment fell on Jesus:

Jn 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Jesus had given His life for the sins of the world. Our judgment fell on Jesus.

John 3
14 But even as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up,
15 so that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.
18 He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil.

The Great and terrible day of the LORD had come.

However, "Time" exists in eternity, and is enveloped by eternity. By way of example, if eternity is the air, "Time" is one aspect of the contents of the gas balloon that floats around in it, or exists in the hour glass suspended in eternity:

View attachment 288287

So what has been before, will be again, and when studying Biblical prophecy, it's imperative not to view "Time" from a linear point of view, or from a starting point to an end point, but from the point of view of eternity, which is represented by the white background surrounding the hour glass below:

View attachment 288288

Some prophecies have only one fulfillment in linear time. Others have repeats. Different time in linear time, different conditions surrounding the events, but prophesied beforehand.

The Great and terrible day of the LORD had come.
/QUOTE]

Thanks for your comments. I think we as Christians are guilty of not appreciating Christ's first coming enough. I mean that God Almighty, who is outside of time and space, came into time and space for a short period of time. He then allowed His own creation to slap His face, spit on Him, whip Him and crucify Him. And He did all this to take the sin of mankind on His shoulders and to judge the world and Satan for their sins.

Yes, the great and terrible day of the Lord has come. All the earthquakes and famines and wars and bloodshed to come do not equate to one stripe on His back. I wish we would truly appreciate this as Christians.

swainkas · Nov 8, 2020

BABerean2 said:
If we still have islands and mountains on this planet, the earthquake above has not yet occurred.

.

According to Luke 3:2-5 and Isaiah 40:3-5 we should no longer have mountains or ravines right now.

Prophetic writings cannot always be taken literally.

Prophetic inspiration flashes like lightning in an otherwise dark night. Looking at the example of Christ's first coming we can see that God generally fulfilled only a verse or two out of the entire passage. In only two examples do we have Jesus fulfilling entire sections of scripture (Psalm 22 & Isaiah 53). To read the entire book of Revelation and assume it is a detailed blueprint of things to come is stretching of the credulity of that type of writing.

BABerean2 · Nov 8, 2020

swainkas said:
According to Luke 3:2-5 and Isaiah 40:3-5 we should no longer have mountains or ravines right now.

Prophetic writings cannot always be taken literally.

Prophetic inspiration flashes like lightning in an otherwise dark night. Looking at the example of Christ's first coming we can see that God generally fulfilled only a verse or two out of the entire passage. In only two examples do we have Jesus fulfilling entire sections of scripture (Psalm 22 & Isaiah 53). To read the entire book of Revelation and assume it is a detailed blueprint of things to come is stretching of the credulity of that type of writing.

You ignored the text of Revelation 16 which reveals this earthquake to be the most powerful earthquake in history.

You are also ignoring the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.

If you are attempting to make Full-Preterism work, are you are ignoring the following?

Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here.
Mat 12:42 The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.

.

swainkas · Nov 9, 2020

BABerean2 said:
If you are attempting to make Full-Preterism work, are you are ignoring the following?

Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here.
Mat 12:42 The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.

.

I am not trying to make Full Preterism work. I am just trying to point out is that Jesus' Passion is often overlooked by Christians as being not all that grand. I think it was the most stupendous set of events in the history of our universe and thus calling it the great and terrible day of the Lord seems to fit. Coming from an Old Testament perspective, Christ's first coming would indeed be described as a great and terrible day of the Lord.

I'm not sure what case you are making with that set of verses.

BABerean2 · Nov 9, 2020

swainkas said:
I am not trying to make Full Preterism work. I am just trying to point out is that Jesus' Passion is often overlooked by Christians as being not all that grand. I think it was the most stupendous set of events in the history of our universe and thus calling it the great and terrible day of the Lord seems to fit. Coming from an Old Testament perspective, Christ's first coming would indeed be described as a great and terrible day of the Lord.

I'm not sure what case you are making with that set of verses.

I am making the case that there will be a future bodily resurrection and judgment of all the dead at the future Second Coming of Christ.

The timing is found in Revelation 11:15-18, and the event is described by Christ in John 5:27-30.

.

Timtofly · Nov 10, 2020

BABerean2 said:
I am making the case that there will be a future bodily resurrection and judgment of all the dead at the future Second Coming of Christ.

The timing is found in Revelation 11:15-18, and the event is described by Christ in John 5:27-30.

The event is found in many chapters of Revelation, and the timing is described in John 5:25-30, Matthew 24:36. There was a bodily resurrection of Lazarus. There was a bodily resurrection of Jesus and the OT saints. Every time any in Christ have died in the last 1990 years. The resurrection started back with Jesus Christ on earth and has been non-stop since then. In Revelation God is coming to destroy those who destroy the vineyard. Matthew 21:40-41.
40 "Now when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”
41 They answered him, “He will viciously destroy those vicious men and rent out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him his share of the crop when it’s due.”

God took away the vineyard from the Jews, now God is about to take the vineyard away from the church.

The timing: Soon, but no one knows the day or the hour.

BABerean2 · Nov 10, 2020

Timtofly said:
God took away the vineyard from the Jews, now God is about to take the vineyard away from the church.

The timing: Soon, but no one knows the day or the hour.

God is not going to take away anything from the true New Covenant Church, based on Galatians 3:16-29.
We inherit the promise through Christ.

The text of Matthew 21 says the kingdom would be taken from those who reject the "chief cornerstone", and it would be given to another nation bearing fruit.
That "holy nation" is found in 1 Peter 2:4-10.

If you are promoting the Pretrib removal of the Church, you are wasting your time.

.

Timtofly · Nov 10, 2020

BABerean2 said:
God is not going to take away anything from the true New Covenant Church, based on Galatians 3:16-29.
We inherit the promise through Christ.

The text of Matthew 21 says the kingdom would be taken from those who reject the "chief cornerstone", and it would be given to another nation bearing fruit.
That "holy nation" is found in 1 Peter 2:4-10.

If you are promoting the Pretrib removal of the Church, you are wasting your time.

If you think the church is going to be on earth, you are wasting your time.

BABerean2 · Nov 10, 2020

Timtofly said:
If you think the church is going to be on earth, you are wasting your time.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.

The Capital "C" Church as we use the word today is not found in the entire Book of Revelation.
Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_23.pdf

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf

.

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