New Covenant - fulfilled?

mkgal1 · Nov 7, 2020

Douggg said:
Everyone who believes the church has become Israel.

It's a more accurate statement that the faithful remnant of ancient Israelites became the early church. God's covenant with biblical ancient Israel came first.

Jeremiah 31:31
Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah

.....the promise of a new covenant.....with who?

"the house of Israel and the house of Judah", the text states.

What covenant is the Church under? Paul wrote that it's the New Covenant:

2 Corinthians 3:6
...who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

......Paul qualifies as a member of the biblical faithful Israelites.... and a member of the Church.

Philippians 3:5
I was circumcised when I was eight days old. I am a pure-blooded citizen of Israel and a member of the tribe of Benjamin—a real Hebrew if there ever was one! I was a member of the Pharisees, who demand the strictest obedience to the Jewish law.

Douggg · Nov 7, 2020

jgr said:
As expected, you're unable to produce a name and quote.

Because such does not exist.

I am not going down the violation of the forum rules that you want me to. What you are doing is trying to stir things up, by insisting on personal accusations of naming specific persons. Which is one reason so many of these threads get shut down by the moderators.

jgr · Nov 7, 2020

Douggg said:
I am not going down the violation of the forum rules that you want me to. What you are doing is trying to stir things up, by insisting on personal accusations of naming specific persons. Which is one reason so many of these threads get shut down by the moderators.

Quote the forum rule that you would be violating.

nolidad · Nov 7, 2020

mkgal1 said:
I can't follow your first question. I think Paul addressed it here, though....from what I'm guessing you mean:

Romans 9:6
It is not as though God’s word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

I agree! that is why before God restores teh kingdom to Israel He will fulfill these two promised to teh nation of Israel as well.

Ezekiel 20:32-38
King James Version

32 And that which cometh into your mind shall not be at all, that ye say, We will be as the heathen, as the families of the countries, to serve wood and stone.

33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.

37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

Zechariah 13:8-9
King James Version

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Unless of course you feel that God does not keep His promises.

mkgal1 · Nov 7, 2020

nolidad said:
I agree! that is why before God restores teh kingdom to Israel He will fulfill these two promised to teh nation of Israel as well.

The Mosaic Covenant was *conditional*. God gave the ancient biblical Israelites time to repent.... however, this was hanging over them:

Amos 3:2
From among all the families on the earth, I have been intimate with you alone. That is why I must punish you for all your sins.”

.......Peter warned them, saying:

Acts 2:40
“Be saved from this corrupt generation.”

jgr · Nov 7, 2020

mkgal1 said:
The Mosaic Covenant was *conditional*. God gave the ancient biblical Israelites time to repent.... however, this was hanging over them:

Amos 3:2
From among all the families on the earth, I have been intimate with you alone. That is why I must punish you for all your sins.”

.......Peter warned them, saying:

Acts 2:40
“Be saved from this corrupt generation.”

Our friend says "will fulfill".

Romans 9:6-8 is entirely present tense, i.e. "is fulfilled".

What bible is he reading from?

mkgal1 · Nov 7, 2020

jgr said:
Our friend says "will fulfill".

Romans 9:6-8 is entirely present tense, i.e. "is fulfilled".

What bible is he reading from?

Exactly.

The distinction is made clear in that passage. If we only focus on one aspect at a time (either His faithful remnant or the apostates of Jesus's generation - instead of conflating them) then most of us can see that His faithful remnant was restored to Him and made up the early church....and the apostates of that generation suffered His punishment and had the Kingdom of God taken from them and given to another that was fruitful (the Church....which included the faithful Israelite remnant).

Matthew 21:43

nolidad · Nov 7, 2020

mkgal1 said:
The Mosaic Covenant was *conditional*. God gave the ancient biblical Israelites time to repent.... however, this was hanging over them:

Amos 3:2
From among all the families on the earth, I have been intimate with you alone. That is why I must punish you for all your sins.”

.......Peter warned them, saying:

Acts 2:40
“Be saved from this corrupt generation.”

Absolutely true! that is why He will fully establish the new covenant with Israel:

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Remember it is God who will force the 1/3 survivors as declared in Zech 13 to enter into the bond of the new covenant:

Ezekiel 20:35-39
King James Version

35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.

37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

Remember mikgal, The Lord said He will do this for His names sake! Before He even called Israel to be His covenanted people with a covenanted land- He foreknew they would rebel, they would reject Jesus, they would be scattered to the four corners of the earth, and that He would regather them all as He said to Israel through His prophets. Not one thing that happened in the OT history of Israel took God by surprise.

mlepfitjw · Nov 7, 2020

Is God writing on the minds and hearts of others part of the new covenant? We see in Hebrews where it say that. God writes on hearts and mind, and if that the case do we live in a covenant where as believers we live by the spirit only? The word is good, and can feed the spirit but even the letter can kill the spirit. So which is more profitable to live by?

mkgal1 · Nov 7, 2020

nolidad said:
He will fully establish the new covenant with Israel:

As it's already been brought up, the passages written in present tense (written almost 2,000 years ago) seem to be getting ignored in order to hold onto a futurist belief. This is one of those passages getting pushed to the side and ignored:

Acts 2
5Now there were dwelling(b) in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.

6And when this sound rang out, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking his own language
7Astounded and amazed, they asked, “Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? 8How is it then that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9Parthians, Medes, and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,c 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome, 11both Jews and converts to Judaism; Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”12Astounded and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”

Please read full context here to see Peter’s answer

mkgal1 · Nov 7, 2020

nolidad said:
He will fully establish the new covenant with Israel

What do you call God's relationship with Saul/Paul, if not evidence of the fulfillment of the New Covenant with Israel? I bring Paul up as an example because of what he, himself, tells us about his background here:

Philippians 3:4-5
If anyone else thinks he has grounds for confidence in the flesh, I have more:
circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin; a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee

mkgal1 · Nov 7, 2020

mkgal1 said:
The Mosaic Covenant was *conditional*. God gave the ancient biblical Israelites time to repent.... however, this was hanging over them:

Amos 3:2
From among all the families on the earth, I have been intimate with you alone. That is why I must punish you for all your sins.”

.......Peter warned them, saying:

Acts 2:40
“Be saved from this corrupt generation.”

It's not a discussion when one person just keeps posting the same post:

New Covenant - fulfilled?

IMO.....that's likened to this:

Acts 7:57
At this they covered their ears, cried out in a loud voice

mkgal1 · Nov 7, 2020

nolidad said:
Remember mikgal, The Lord said He will do this for His names sake! Before He even called Israel to be His covenanted people with a covenanted land- He foreknew they would rebel, they would reject Jesus, they would be scattered to the four corners of the earth, and that He would regather them all as He said to Israel through His prophets. Not one thing that happened in the OT history of Israel took God by surprise.

God's not surprised....you're absolutely correct. But I am surprised that, even after God has fulfilled His promises (against amazing and miraculous odds) people that call themselves bearers of His name deny what He's done.

jgr · Nov 7, 2020

nolidad said:
Remember mikgal, The Lord said He will do this for His names sake! Before He even called Israel to be His covenanted people with a covenanted land- He foreknew they would rebel, they would reject Jesus, they would be scattered to the four corners of the earth, and that He would regather them all as He said to Israel through His prophets. Not one thing that happened in the OT history of Israel took God by surprise.

This demonstrates the predictable ignorance of God's distinction through the ages between His faithful and obedient remnant, whom He blessed and preserved, and the unfaithful and disobedient rebels outside of the remnant, whom He punished and slew.

The faithful obedient remnant did not rebel. They did not bow to Baal.

The faithful obedient remnant did not reject Jesus. They accepted Him and have been added daily to the New Testament Church ever since Calvary.

The faithful obedient remnant was not scattered to the four corners of the earth. The Judaean New Testament Church was miraculously preserved in its entirety prior to the destruction of Jerusalem.

The faithful obedient remnant has been gathered into the New Testament Church ever since Calvary.

Indeed, God has never been surprised. He continues to bless and preserve His sole and exclusive Chosen People, His New Testament Church, the only Israel that He recognizes.

Praise be to His Name.

Guojing · Nov 7, 2020

jgr said:
This demonstrates the predictable ignorance of God's distinction through the ages between His faithful and obedient remnant, whom He blessed and preserved, and the unfaithful and disobedient rebels outside of the remnant, whom He punished and slew.

The faithful obedient remnant did not rebel. They did not bow to Baal.

The faithful obedient remnant did not reject Jesus. They accepted Him and have been added daily to the New Testament Church ever since Calvary.

The faithful obedient remnant was not scattered to the four corners of the earth. The Judaean New Testament Church was miraculously preserved in its entirety prior to the destruction of Jerusalem.

The faithful obedient remnant has been gathered into the New Testament Church ever since Calvary.

Indeed, God has never been surprised. He continues to bless and preserve His sole and exclusive Chosen People, His New Testament Church, the only Israel that He recognizes.

Praise be to His Name.

So can I conclude your view is

the church has not become Israel

but rather

The church was always the true Israel

would that be the correct interpretation?

jgr · Nov 8, 2020

Guojing said:
So can I conclude your view is

the church has not become Israel

but rather

The church was always the true Israel

would that be the correct interpretation?

True Israel and the True Church have always been characterized by faith and obedience alone.

True Israel was God's Chosen People under His old covenant.

The True Church is God's Chosen People under His New Covenant.

Guojing · Nov 8, 2020

jgr said:
True Israel and the True Church have always been characterized by faith and obedience alone.

True Israel was God's Chosen People under His old covenant.

The True Church is God's Chosen People under His New Covenant.

So is your answer a yes then? A True Church must be, by definition, True Israel?

Yeshua HaDerekh · Nov 8, 2020

Timtofly said:
Only Enoch was righteous enough to keep any commandments. Name any other human who kept them like Enoch.

Genesis 6:9

Luke 1:6

jgr · Nov 8, 2020

Guojing said:
So is your answer a yes then? A True Church must be, by definition, True Israel?

First clarify your definition of "True Israel". Is it exclusively those who are in Christ?

Timtofly · Nov 8, 2020

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Genesis 6:9
Luke 1:6

Close, yet Noah sinned after the Flood.
John's dad lacked faith. Enoch walked with God every day.

New Covenant - fulfilled?

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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