Salvation and Calvinists

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All Glory To God

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Scripture never teaches that you need to be born again before being saved. Instead, it teaches that to be saved is to be born again. They mean the same thing. The moment we receive the Holy Spirit into our hearts is the moment we are saved and born again.

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,


Yeah that's what I said. To be saved, you need a born again experience. That is to say, born again=saved.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I believe Jesus is God. I know what his sacrifice on the cross was for. And I know it forgives the sins of who will come to him. But I am honestly being torn apart by all the debate in the christian community.
I'm beginning to doubt your "difficulty". If you do believe what you claim to believe, then it's a no-brainer. If you believe what Jesus did on the cross and that He did it for you, and that He saves those who DO trust in Him, you ARE now saved.

So it seems there may be something under the current going on here. You're not making sense. All you're doing is trying to pit different theologies against each other.

You claim you believe the gospel (that would SAVE you), but then you claim confusion over what Calvinism claims.

Is this what your real issue is? Trying to put Calvinists into a corner? Well, they already are in a corner. They can't defend their position. All they can do is claim their ideas are in the Bible.

The whole predestination thing. I don't love the Lord. I want to.
Don't be silly. If you want to, then DO it. You're still not making any sense. I've already explained the biblical concept of predestination, which isn't even about salvation, so you can quit bringing in false notions to the discussion.

I don't have faith.
Read the first 3 sentences in your post above. Please stop playing games.

I want to have it.
People DO what they WANT to do. So quit playing games here.

I want to love the Lord but apparently I am not able to because God won't let me according to some people.
See? You're just trying to blame others for your problems. That excuse doesn't fly.

Again, people DO what they WANT to DO. Your "excuses" don't work.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Yeah that's what I said. To be saved, you need a born again experience. That is to say, born again=saved.
But what you don't acknowledge is being born again/saved is the result of someone putting their faith in Christ.

Ephesians 1:13 (NIV) And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, (NIV)

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
 
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All Glory To God

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Because he has said he doesn't have faith in Christ. That means he doesn't believe what Jesus said. Not real difficult.


Not really sure about that. For all I know, he could be some kind of "plant", with the goal of sowing ill will seed among believers.

His various statements do not agree, and I have pointed that out to him.

I would guess at this point he is merely trying to get believers to fight over their theologies.


Ok, all the above scripture posted from you has a counterargument from a Reformed perspective. I could be posting it all but I think the best thing to do is you and the other people who are inclined to self willed salvation should keep trying to help the OP because I am not really interested in a debate tonight. That is the purpose of this thread, someone wants to be saved. Whether he is sincere or not maybe you could find that out.
 
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All Glory To God

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But what you don't acknowledge is being born again/saved is the result of someone putting their faith in Christ.

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,


Faith is a gift from God. Fallen man is spiritually dead. If you don't believe that then I am not going to try and persuade you tonight.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Ok, all the above scripture posted from you has a counterargument from a Reformed perspective.
The only problem is that they are all false. The verses I shared ALL teach that salvation and eternal life are by believing.

I could be posting it all but I think the best thing to do is you and the other people who are inclined to self willed salvation should keep trying to help the OP because I am not really interested in a debate tonight.
I've just debunked your silly "self willed salvation" stuff. No such thing.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Faith is a gift from God.
Right. "Faith" is a noun. It refers to the whole of Scripture. It is what we need to believe. That's how we "have faith". We believe what the Bible says.

Fallen man is spiritually dead.
And yet, spiritually dead people CAN and Do hear and will live.

John 5:25 - Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.
 
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Mountainmanbob

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This is a question I have for my own personal salvation honestly. I have been trying to figure out how I can be saved but a big wrench in my searching is the whole "Calvinistic doctrine" as people call it. These Calvinists argue that I can't save myself, which I believe is true. But they say that I am predestined to either hell or heaven. Predestined to continue in sin or to repent and believe in Christ for my salvation. They basically teach that I have no free will but I am still responsible for if I go to hell or not. I am hopelessly confused by these teachings (predestination, free will, salvation.) I thought salvation was supposed to be simple but honestly it seems like most people who call themselves Christians can't even agree on how salvation works. I've seen constant arguing between Calvinists and others and now it has confused me, an unbeliever, to the point where I don't know what to do for salvation.

Do I repent and believe? Do I just hope that I have been predestined to be saved? Do I just ask God to save me?

And I'm afraid that no matter what I do I will be seeking salvation the wrong way. I've heard people even say that trying to seek faith in Christ or trying to believe is a work. Or that I am placing my faith in my faith instead of Christ (if that makes sense even.)

Some have said that repenting and believing is a work. And some have even said that salvation comes before repentance and belief. That only the elect will believe.

Do I just hope and beg God to save me? If I am not elect then he won't do it anyway. If I am not predestined he won't save me. That is what I've heard from Calvinists at least.

What if I am not one of the elect or predestined to be saved? As an unbeliever I am hopelessly confused as to how to be saved.

If you have the desire to seek God daily with all of your heart you will be saved.

Those who are not called do not have this desire.
It sounds foolish to them.

M
 
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STommy

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If you have the desire to seek God daily with all of your heart you will be saved.

Those who are not called do not have this desire.
It sounds foolish to them.

M

My final question then. How do I believe/seek with all my heart and not just believe with my mind. How do I gain real saving faith?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Faith is a gift from God. Fallen man is spiritually dead. If you don't believe that then I am not going to try and persuade you tonight.
No, salvation is a gift from God that comes by His grace through faith in Christ and not by works (Eph 2:8-10).

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Do you deny that faith comes before salvation? Calvinism does. Ephesians 1:13 clearly teaches otherwise.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
You just believe what He says about salvation Believe. That is having faith.
Okay. Do you think that heart belief/faith is different than just mental acknowledgement? How do I believe with all my heart?
I have made the gospel as clear as possible. It seems you are just trying to make it difficult.

YOU have to answer the question of how YOU trust someone. If you can't figure that out, you have a real problem.

And, mental acknowledgement isn't trust/belief. It's simply understanding facts.

Many people (yourself included) know the facts. But, many people (yourself included) don't believe them. From your own posts.

Your problem will onlly be solved when you figure out how YOU trust someone. Then you're in. Not until then.
 
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FreeGrace2

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If you have the desire to seek God daily with all of your heart you will be saved.
This is not true at all. Where does the Bible say anything close to this??

Those who are not called do not have this desire.
No one is saved by "desire". Nowhere does the Bible say this.
 
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FreeGrace2

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My final question then. How do I believe/seek with all my heart and not just believe with my mind. How do I gain real saving faith?
The Bible equates "mind" with "heart". So your question is moot.

Again, if you would just replace the word believe/have faith, with TRUST, it should all make sense. If, that is, you understand how to trust someone.

It does seem you have more trust in what Calvinists say than what the Bible says.
 
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bling

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My final question then. How do I believe/seek with all my heart and not just believe with my mind. How do I gain real saving faith?
I like the patience you show in addressing these posts.

Your question: “What must I do”, does not really have one easy answer, since it depends very heavily on “who you are” and where you are at. I have taught in the prison program and now teach university students from communist China, who will go back to china, or over zoom and emails with student in China. I lived and worked with young people in the intercity and adults and students attending church with me. I just had a young Chinese student, who has been studying with us for almost a year now, who wanted to be baptized and was thinking her communist party member parents would be OK with it, but I suggested she just bring up the possibility to them and they went postal. Those in prison I taught when they were baptized realized; they would be giving up their weapons, leave their gang’s protection, giving up all their possessions to their former gang, and might be beaten to death by other gangs wanting payback. I could not have cleared those hurtles when I became a Christian.

Right now, you lack faithfulness, Love, commitment, power to keep from sinning and hope, which is OK and where you should be.

God has made it as easy as possible for all willing individuals to become Christians, but there is something you do have to “do”. But what you have to do is not something honorable, noble, worthy of anything, righteous or holy. It is something a dead person can do (dead by Christ’s definition of dead in the prodigal son story). Like the prodigal son, your sins that have hurt others has caused you to continue to spiral down into life’s pigsty. Along the way, you have come to your senses and at these points you can make an autonomous free will choice to either: hang in there, be macho, be willing to pay the piper and be willing to accept the just punishment you fully deserve or you can wimp out, give up and surrender to your hated enemy God (He is not supporting your desired “happy” sinful life and thus allowing you to be hell bound). For purely (sinful) selfish reason you want some kind of continued livable existence, so you are just willing to humble except pure undeserved charity from your hated enemy (God). Again, you are not doing this out of a Godly type Love, since you do not have a Godly type Love.

Believing that a benevolent Creator exist is an actually humbling activity, since even the lowliest mature adult on earth can do that, but with this humility you can humbly accept God’s pure undeserving charity (Godly type Love which cannot be forced on you or instinctive to you without being robotic), The main charity you seek should be relieve from the burden in your conscience sin has created, through being truly forgiven. God wants to forgive everyone, but because forgiveness is a transaction, you have to humbly accept forgiveness as pure charity for forgiveness to take place.

If you truly accept God’s forgiveness of your unbelievable huge debt sin has created, you will automatically receive an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love) for Jesus taught us in Luke 7 “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…” That Love with the gratitude you now have from all the gifts showered on you, motivates you to do good stuff.

If you become a Christian with the attitude of: “I got to stop sinning” you will fail, but if you quit trying “not to sin” and look around you for the good you can be doing in the next 60 seconds, you with the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit, can do that. Fell your life with good stuff and you will not have time to sin. Start with the little faith and new Love you do have and start doing easy good stuff out of gratitude: Wash the dishes without being asked, clean up, call a friend for Christian fellowship and just keep on going and growing.

New Christians may not tap into everything that is available to them to help them experience the transformation:

I do not know of any Christian group, who believe the water itself saves you, since all believe it is God who saves and God is not limited by water.

Water baptism is not a “requirement” for salvation since God does the saving, but is something Christians get to do in order to help them and others.

I know that I needed everything God could provide to assure me of my conversion, both outwardly and mentally. God wants you to physically feel the experience of what is going on Spiritually.

You need to add to your conversion a definite time place and physical experience, which God has provided for you.

Adult believers water immersion is to be a physical outward representation of what had or is happening spiritually in the person being baptized. It is mainly to help the individual being baptized to better grasp what is going on, but it can “witness” to others observing the baptism. It has the elements of going down under the water (burying the old man), placing your dependence in another; the person baptizing you (surrendering your life to God), being washed (having your sins washed away), rising out of the water (rising from the old dead body), and stepping forth out onto the earth (a new person). The person is walking out into the hugs of his new family. It is also a sign of your humility, since it is a humbling act anyone can simple allow someone to do to them (so not a work) and since humility has been shown in the accept of charity (God’s free gift of undeserving forgiveness) it should just support and add to the memory of that acceptance. To refuse Christian water baptism when it is readily available might mean you are not ready to handle other responsibility like having the indwelling Holy Spirit and you are hurting yourself.
 
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STommy

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I like the patience you show in addressing these posts.

Your question: “What must I do”, does not really have one easy answer, since it depends very heavily on “who you are” and where you are at. I have taught in the prison program and now teach university students from communist China, who will go back to china, or over zoom and emails with student in China. I lived and worked with young people in the intercity and adults and students attending church with me. I just had a young Chinese student, who has been studying with us for almost a year now, who wanted to be baptized and was thinking her communist party member parents would be OK with it, but I suggested she just bring up the possibility to them and they went postal. Those in prison I taught when they were baptized realized; they would be giving up their weapons, leave their gang’s protection, giving up all their possessions to their former gang, and might be beaten to death by other gangs wanting payback. I could not have cleared those hurtles when I became a Christian.

Right now, you lack faithfulness, Love, commitment, power to keep from sinning and hope, which is OK and where you should be.

God has made it as easy as possible for all willing individuals to become Christians, but there is something you do have to “do”. But what you have to do is not something honorable, noble, worthy of anything, righteous or holy. It is something a dead person can do (dead by Christ’s definition of dead in the prodigal son story). Like the prodigal son, your sins that have hurt others has caused you to continue to spiral down into life’s pigsty. Along the way, you have come to your senses and at these points you can make an autonomous free will choice to either: hang in there, be macho, be willing to pay the piper and be willing to accept the just punishment you fully deserve or you can wimp out, give up and surrender to your hated enemy God (He is not supporting your desired “happy” sinful life and thus allowing you to be hell bound). For purely (sinful) selfish reason you want some kind of continued livable existence, so you are just willing to humble except pure undeserved charity from your hated enemy (God). Again, you are not doing this out of a Godly type Love, since you do not have a Godly type Love.

Believing that a benevolent Creator exist is an actually humbling activity, since even the lowliest mature adult on earth can do that, but with this humility you can humbly accept God’s pure undeserving charity (Godly type Love which cannot be forced on you or instinctive to you without being robotic), The main charity you seek should be relieve from the burden in your conscience sin has created, through being truly forgiven. God wants to forgive everyone, but because forgiveness is a transaction, you have to humbly accept forgiveness as pure charity for forgiveness to take place.

If you truly accept God’s forgiveness of your unbelievable huge debt sin has created, you will automatically receive an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love) for Jesus taught us in Luke 7 “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…” That Love with the gratitude you now have from all the gifts showered on you, motivates you to do good stuff.

If you become a Christian with the attitude of: “I got to stop sinning” you will fail, but if you quit trying “not to sin” and look around you for the good you can be doing in the next 60 seconds, you with the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit, can do that. Fell your life with good stuff and you will not have time to sin. Start with the little faith and new Love you do have and start doing easy good stuff out of gratitude: Wash the dishes without being asked, clean up, call a friend for Christian fellowship and just keep on going and growing.

New Christians may not tap into everything that is available to them to help them experience the transformation:

I do not know of any Christian group, who believe the water itself saves you, since all believe it is God who saves and God is not limited by water.

Water baptism is not a “requirement” for salvation since God does the saving, but is something Christians get to do in order to help them and others.

I know that I needed everything God could provide to assure me of my conversion, both outwardly and mentally. God wants you to physically feel the experience of what is going on Spiritually.

You need to add to your conversion a definite time place and physical experience, which God has provided for you.

Adult believers water immersion is to be a physical outward representation of what had or is happening spiritually in the person being baptized. It is mainly to help the individual being baptized to better grasp what is going on, but it can “witness” to others observing the baptism. It has the elements of going down under the water (burying the old man), placing your dependence in another; the person baptizing you (surrendering your life to God), being washed (having your sins washed away), rising out of the water (rising from the old dead body), and stepping forth out onto the earth (a new person). The person is walking out into the hugs of his new family. It is also a sign of your humility, since it is a humbling act anyone can simple allow someone to do to them (so not a work) and since humility has been shown in the accept of charity (God’s free gift of undeserving forgiveness) it should just support and add to the memory of that acceptance. To refuse Christian water baptism when it is readily available might mean you are not ready to handle other responsibility like having the indwelling Holy Spirit and you are hurting yourself.

Well said. I thank you for your graceful response.
 
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Mountainmanbob

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This is not true at all. Where does the Bible say anything close to this??
No one is saved by "desire". Nowhere does the Bible say this.
Who gives us the desire?
Holy Spirit?
M
 
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