Romans 11:5-8 Proves God, Not Man, Chooses Who is Saved and Defines Who the Elect Are

ShawnG said:

Bob Ryan, those verses you posted obviously seem to show God instructing men to choose. So you say man controls 100% of his free will And he determines his own fate.

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I say that by nature - man is enslaved to sin because of his sinful nature.

Yet the sovereign will of God is to supernaturally "draw all mankind" unto Him - John 12:32 and that drawing power of God "enables" all the free will that depravity disables when it comes to allowing humans to accept the Gospel or not.j

Rom 2:11 "God is not arbitrary". So no such thing as "arbitrary selection" in God's system of how things work.

John 1:11 "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not"

ShawnG said:

I ask you, and there’s a good reason I ask this that will prove God controls who is saved and not saved.

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As for the "Will of God" -- "God is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" 2 Peter 3

And yet it is only "the few" of Matthew 7 that will be saved.

God knows the future perfectly - He foreknows who will and who will not make that choice.

1 Peter 1:1 To those who reside as strangers, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father

what was the men questioning God being unjust about in Romans 9:14?
what is Paul saying men will object and protest to God about in Romans 9:19?

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Romans 9 never says that God predestines someone for hell and does not care a wit about them.

But it also affirms that God knows all the end points - He knows who will and will not be saved.

This is the only way this can be said --

Isaiah 5:4
4 “What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

John 1:11 He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not"

In Calvinism the answer to "What more could I have done" is always "well start by turning the lights on for that person"

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Your Romans 9 question is effectively ...

If we ignore all of these texts...

BobRyan said:

Isaiah 5:4
4 “What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

John 1:11 He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not"


Ezek 18
“Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord God. “Therefore, repent and live

Matt 23
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

Luke 7
30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John. 31 “To what then shall I compare the men of this generation, and what are they like? 32 They are like children who sit in the market place and call to one another, and they say, ‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not weep.’

2 Peter 3
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

1 John 2:2
2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 4:14
14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

Rom 11
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Rev 3
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

Rom 10
9 .. if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

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we can go through text by text if you like.

John 3:16 "God so loved the WORLD that He gave"... yes... really.
Rom 2:11 "God is not partial"... yes... really

Matt 7 - the many are lost, the few are saved... but the Bible never says "God only so loved the few"

God does not say "the whole world will convert to Christianity" nor does He add to that "and I down sized the term WORLD to mean only the FEW of Matt 7"

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Then what might we be able to infer from Rom 9:14 or 9:19?

It is sort of like person-A saying "I read a well respected math textbook and found that it repeatedly confirms that 2 + 2 = 8"

But when you look at that subject in the text book you find only part of the info is being presented in what person-A was saying.

on page 200 it said -- 2 + 2 = 8 / n confirm for n = 2
on page 312 it said -- 2 + 2 = 8 * Y confirm for y = .5

So just pointing out part of the data and isolating out the rest - is not helpful in getting the accurate picture.

Rom 9
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? Far from it!

I think everyone agrees on that one.

22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon objects of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 namely us, whom He also called, not only from among Jews, but also from among Gentiles,

Don't miss it - the reason Christ "is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and NOT for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2 (instead of "just for our sins") is to "show the riches of His glory upon objects of mercy" because the saved saints in heaven will witness the long suffering and love of God for their lost family, friends, loved ones and will conclude that God really did "So Love the WORLD that He gave" ... not just an arbitrarily select few --

It is displayed for the saints to see the love of God even on those whom He foreknows to reject the gospel.

ShawnG said:

Bob
Do you believe man has 100% free will?

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As noted here - God supernaturally enables the will by the supernatural drawing of "all mankind" which even by the most extreme Calvinist model - enables all the free will needed to choose the gospel - that depravity disables.

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There is the only way this following statement can be said --

Isaiah 5:4
4 “What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

John 1:11 He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not"

In Calvinism the answer to "What more could I have done" is always "well start by turning the lights on for that person"

BobRyan said:

I say that by nature - man is enslaved to sin because of his sinful nature.

Yet the sovereign will of God is to supernaturally "draw all mankind" unto Him - John 12:32 and that drawing power of God "enables" all the free will that depravity disables when it comes to allowing humans to accept the Gospel or not.j

Rom 2:11 "God is not arbitrary". So no such thing as "arbitrary selection" in God's system of how things work.
John 1:11 "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not"
As for the "Will of God" -- "God is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" 2 Peter 3

And yet it is only "the few" of Matthew 7 that will be saved.
God knows the future perfectly - He foreknows who will and who will not make that choice.

1 Peter 1:1 To those who reside as strangers, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father

Click to expand...

BobRyan said:

Just say it was known fact God controlled us all and determined who was saved and not? Would that bother you?

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It would contradict scripture.

BobRyan said:

There is the only way this can be said --

Isaiah 5:4
4 “What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

John 1:11 He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not"

In Calvinism the answer to "What more could I have done" is always "well start by turning the lights on for that person"

Click to expand...

Rom 2:11 "God is not arbitrary". So no such thing as "arbitrary selection" in God's system of how things work.
John 1:11 "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not"
As for the "Will of God" -- "God is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" 2 Peter 3