Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

DavidPT · Nov 5, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Do you think Satan has to be physically present at every site where Saints are being martyred?

Is it Satan himself who swings the axe, or sword, to behead our Brothers and Sisters?

Of course not, but that is beside the point. I don't see it being logical that saints would be being martyred while satan is locked up in the pit at the time. It seems to me that when satan is locked up in the pit his angels would be locked up in it with him at the time. We have to keep in mind that we all agree satan can't be physically in more than one place at a time. When someone is deceived it's not that satan himself is personally deceiving them, it's through the agents satan uses that would be deceiving them. And the fact one of these agents is the beast in Revelation 13, both the beast and satan can't be in the pit when satan operates through the beast in order to deceive and persecute anyone. And according to Revelation 20:4, satan already uses this beast to operate through before satan is ever loosed from the pit following the thousand years.

Obviously then, the beast ascends out of the pit before the thousand years end. And since it's illogical that the beast would ascend out of the pit during the thousand years, that only leaves before the thousand years begin, this is when the beast ascends out of the pit.

While it's on my mind, what do Amils do about the false prophet? He is never said to ascend out of the pit. Where is he while the beast is still in the pit? In regards to the beast, the fact it was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the pit, do Amils think the false prophet was already around and operating during the time when the beast was, meaning before the beast was cast into the pit? This is important since the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 are martyred when the beast and false prophet are working together.

BABerean2 · Nov 5, 2020

DavidPT said:
Of course not, but that is beside the point. I don't see it being logical that saints would be being martyred while satan is locked up in the pit at the time. It seems to me that when satan is locked up in the pit his angels would be locked up in it with him at the time. We have to keep in mind that we all agree satan can't be physically in more than one place at a time. When someone is deceived it's not that satan himself is personally deceiving them, it's through the agents satan uses that would be deceiving them. And the fact one of these agents is the beast in Revelation 13, both the beast and satan can't be in the pit when satan operates through the beast in order to deceive and persecute anyone. And according to Revelation 20:4, satan already uses this beast to operate through before satan is ever loosed from the pit following the thousand years.

Obviously then, the beast ascends out of the pit before the thousand years end. And since it's illogical that the beast would ascend out of the pit during the thousand years, that only leaves before the thousand years begin, this is when the beast ascends out of the pit.

While it's on my mind, what do Amils do about the false prophet? He is never said to ascend out of the pit. Where is he while the beast is still in the pit? In regards to the beast, the fact it was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the pit, do Amils think the false prophet was already around and operating during the time when the beast was, meaning before the beast was cast into the pit? This is important since the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 are martyred when the beast and false prophet are working together.

Why are you trying to ignore the angel unlocking the pit with a key in Revelation 9:1-2, and the beast ascending out of the pit in Revelation 11:7?

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DavidPT · Nov 5, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Why are you trying to ignore the angel unlocking the pit with a key in Revelation 9:1-2, and the beast ascending out of the pit in Revelation 11:7?

.

What is your take on that? Do you think the falling star in ch 9 is meaning this same angel in ch 20? Let's look at these passages a bit closer.

Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

The former says---and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit---while the latter says---having the key of the bottomless pit

The first thing that needs to be determined, involving the former, who is it that initially has the key to the pit, the fact the falling star is given this key by that same someone?

As to the latter, the text makes it appear that this angel already has this key before he even leaves heaven, thus no one is giving it to him like we see in the former. The question is, which comes first, chronologically? The former or the latter?

What is your take on all of this? As to this post here, I'm in listening mode not debating mode, so, interested in what you make of all of this.

Zao is life · Nov 5, 2020

DavidPT said:
What is your take on that? Do you think the falling star in ch 9 is meaning this same angel in ch 20? Let's look at these passages a bit closer.

Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

The former says---and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit---while the latter says---having the key of the bottomless pit

The first thing that needs to be determined, involving the former, who is it that initially has the key to the pit, the fact the falling star is given this key by that same someone?

As to the latter, the text makes it appear that this angel already has this key before he even leaves heaven, thus no one is giving it to him like we see in the former. The question is, which comes first, chronologically? The former or the latter?

What is your take on all of this? As to this post here, I'm in listening mode not debating mode, so, interested in what you make of all of this.

Apparently the one giving the key to the star fallen from heaven has to unlock the locked abyss, drop the key into it, and close it very quickly again so that the star fallen from heaven, who is already in the abyss, doesn't cease the opportunity to come out when it's unlocked in order to hand the key to him.

I mean, the star fallen from heaven couldn't possibly be opening the pit from the outside unless he's still outside and has never been in the abyss?

So the locked abyss has to be unlocked to drop the key into it, and locked again quickly enough not to let anything out, only so that the star fallen from heaven can use the same key to unlock it again from the inside.

Makes a lot of sense.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 5, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Are the saints judged by their works, or by the works of Christ, and their faith in Him?

He who believes is not condemned:

JUDGED BY THEIR FAITH

John 3
" 14 But even as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up,
15 so that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.
18 He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who practices truth comes to the Light so that his deeds may be made known, that they have been worked in God."

JUDGED BY THEIR WORKS

In Mat 25:31-46, the nations who are gathered at the return of Christ, are ALL seen to be calling Jesus "Lord", and ALL are judged by their works - those who are declared righteous, and those who are declared unrighteous.

Those who are declared unrighteous are sent to the fire prepared for Satan and his angels (Mat 25:41,46), but those who are declared righteous because of their works are called "Blessed of My Father" by Christ, and they are invited into His Kingdom: "Come, blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." (Mat 25:34).

So based on Matthew 25:31-46, your statements quoted above are true, but your statements quoted below cannot be true:

@BABerean2

Further to what I wrote above:

II Thesslonians 1
5 For this is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God for which you also suffer,
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay tribulation to those who trouble you,

7 and to give rest with us to you who are troubled, at the revealing of the Lord Jesus from Heaven with the angels of His power,

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God and who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ,
9 who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

10 when He shall come to be glorified in His saints and to be admired in all those who believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that Day.

It agrees 100% with what is written in Matthew 25:31-46 - those who treated the saints well are declared righteous for their works, and the rest are sent to the flames.

Are you suggesting that you think "the sheep" ("the righteous") are saved in a different way than those who are required to have faith in Christ are saved? If so, how can that be? Why would John 3 not apply to those people?

Are you somehow unaware that you and I will stand before Christ to be judged by what we have done?

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

When do you believe the above will happen? Do you believe that you will be among those who "appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that" you "may receive what is due" you "for the things done while in the body"? If so, then why do you not think you will be among "the sheep" ("blessed by my Father, "the righteous") that will appear before Christ when He comes? It describes them as receiving what is due them for the things done in the body as well, so what is the difference between the judgment of 2 Cor 5:10 and Matt 25:31-46?

Please note that I'm asking these questions based on my understanding of what you said, but please correct me if I misunderstood what you said.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 5, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Apparently the one giving the key to the star fallen from heaven has to unlock the locked abyss, drop the key into it, and close it very quickly again so that the star fallen from heaven, who is already in the abyss, doesn't cease the opportunity to come out when it's unlocked in order to hand the key to him.

Where does Revelation 9 give any indication that the star (symbolic for angel in Revelation) was already in the abyss? Or that the star ever goes into the abyss for that matter? I don't see that anywhere.

Instead, what I see is a description of the star (angel) using the key to open the locked abyss from the outside in order to allow the symbolic locusts (fallen angels) to come out of the abyss. Among the locusts (demons) is "the angel of the abyss" who is their king and his name in Hebrew is Abaddon (Greek: Apollyon).

If that's the case and if Abaddon/Apollyon is another name for Satan (in addition to his other names or titles like Lucifer, Beelzebub and the devil), as I believe, then this would mean that Revelation is describing the loosing of the dragon (Satan) from the abyss. This would mean that Revelation 9 is a parallel passage to Revelation 20:7-9.

I mean, the star fallen from heaven couldn't possibly be opening the pit from the outside unless he's still outside and has never been in the abyss?

That is correct. Again, where does it say he had ever been in the abyss?

So the locked abyss has to be unlocked to drop the key into it, and locked again quickly enough not to let anything out, only so that the star fallen from heaven can use the same key to unlock it again from the inside.

Where is that indicated in the text itself? I'm pretty sure it's not. I understand that sometimes we can draw conclusions implicitly rather than explicitly and that's fine, but I don't see how you're coming to your conclusions even implicitly in this case.

Makes a lot of sense.

Not to me. I just see nothing in the text itself to back up what you're saying here.

Zao is life · Nov 5, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
Are you suggesting that you think "the sheep" ("the righteous") are saved in a different way than those who are required to have faith in Christ are saved? If so, how can that be? Why would John 3 not apply to those people?

Are you somehow unaware that you and I will stand before Christ to be judged by what we have done?

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

When do you believe the above will happen? Do you believe that you will be among those who "appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that" you "may receive what is due" you "for the things done while in the body"? If so, then why do you not think you will be among "the sheep" ("blessed by my Father, "the righteous") that will appear before Christ when He comes? It describes them as receiving what is due them for the things done in the body as well, so what is the difference between the judgment of 2 Cor 5:10 and Matt 25:31-46?

Please note that I'm asking these questions based on my understanding of what you said, but please correct me if I misunderstood what you said.

We both agree that there are two groups of people. Some are sent away to the everlasting fire which has been prepared for Satan and his angels, some are not - and there is only one criteria mentioned being used to assess their works - how they treated Christ, because, said He, how they treated the least of these His brethren is how they treated Him.

Who are his brethren? Is it His brethren being judged by how they treated His brethren?

Let's look at something else:

In Revelation 15, in the introduction passage to the seven last plagues/bowls of wrath, we read that John saw "those who had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvelous are Your works, Lord God Almighty, just and true are Your ways, O King of saints.
4 Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You only are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, for Your righteousnesses were made known.

(Those who had "gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name" are again mentioned in Revelation 20, where John sees them living and reigning with Christ a thousand years.)

The first plague is poured out on the earth, "And a bad and grievous sore fell on the men who had the mark of the beast, and on those who worshiped his image." Rev 16:2

The second plague is poured out on the sea, and it became blood, and likewise the third on the rivers and fountains of waters, and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Righteous is the Lord, who is, and was, and who will be, because You have judged these things,
6 since they have poured out the blood of the saints and prophets; and You gave them blood to drink, for they were deserving.
7 And I heard another out of the altar saying, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments.

Later on, in the midst of John talking about the events of the sixth plague/bowl of wrath, Jesus interjects:

Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.

And he gathered them into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

In Revelation 19:11-21, Christ is seen coming on a white horse to wage war with the beast, "And the armies in Heaven followed Him on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

The saints have already been identified as "clothed in fine linen, white and clean: "And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white. For the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints." (Rev 19:8); and in Rev 17:14 we are told of the ten kings that "These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them. For He is Lord of lords and King of kings. And those with Him are the called and elect and faithful ones." (In Rev 19 He is called king of kings and Lord of Lords when He comes to wage war against the beast).

The above shows the saints who gained victory over the beast in heaven with harps singing the song of Moses by the time the plagues are poured out. Why then does Jesus interject in the midst of John talking about the sixth plague, warning: "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."?

Why?

It leaves open the possibility that when Christ is seen appearing in heaven and resurrecting/rapturing His saints, those who see it will all realize He is Lord, and will all begin calling Him Lord:

"And after three days and a half, a spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood on their feet. And great fear fell on those seeing them." (Revelation 11:11).

Remember: Paul told us that those of the saints who are still alive when Christ appears to gather His elect will not precede those who had fallen asleep in Christ: The dead in Christ will be raised first, then those who are alive and remain will be changed and raptured.

So if the saints are already raptured, who are these who are being told to keep their garments in the midst of the sixth plague, where the Lord's words are followed by:

"And he gathered them into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon." (Rev 11:16).

And who are those who are being judged by how they treated the saints in Matthew 25:31-46, who are ALL calling Jesus "Lord"? There is only one criteria by which they are either considered fit for Christ's (millennial) Kingdom, or fit only for the everlasting fire prepared for Satan and his angels- and that's how they treated "the least of these, His brethren".

Of course, if you do not believe in resurrected saints reigning with Christ during a millennial Kingdom over those "mortals" who repented too late for the resurrection, you will not believe in this - not even in the slightest.

So protest away.

PS: If you read the Revelation from the last two chapters, and read backwards from the last two chapters to the first chapter, reading each chapter from the bottom of the chapter (the close of the chapter to the opening of the chapter), moving backwards through the book, you will see a lot that you never saw before.

FACT: Nowhere else in the New Testament outside of Revelation 20 will you find a mention that Satan is bound.

FACT: Revelation 20 describes NONE OF what the chapters from chapter 6-19 describe, except for the mention of those who had been martyred by the beast in the opening verses of chapter 20. Read it backwards, because reading it forwards has not helped lift the veil for you. Read the entire book backwards.

Will we who are Christ's NOW be judged by our works?

Yes - but not unto condemnation, if we have not denied Him or turned away. I do not believe in OSAS.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 5, 2020

DavidPT said:
Since some of us think context matters, in context the goats do not represent all of the wicked lost to begin with.

Please give me a list of the names of those who have posted on this thread that don't think context matters.

They only represent the professed servants of Christ in the church, where Jesus said in Matthew 24:48-51 in regards to them------But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

It is impossible to understand the sheep and goats judgment correctly if one ignores Matthew 24:42 through Matthew 25:30, and the fact those verses show that there are two types of servants of Christ. 1) profitable servants of Christ. 2) unprofitable servants of Christ. Those verses tell us exactly who the sheep are meaning, and exactly who the goats are meaning.

Maybe you are of the OSAS camp for all I know? And if so, you're not even going to be able to understand Matthew 24:42 through Matthew 25:30 correctly, since that false doctrine of OSAS would be blinding you to the truth of these verses, let alone you understanding the sheep and goats judgment correctly, in light of verses, such as Matthew 24:42 through Matthew 25:30.

I commend you for trying to interpret Matthew 25:31-46 in light of what Jesus aid in Matthew 24:42 through Matthew 25:30, but I also think you are making the mistake of not looking beyond just those passages for understanding.

Jesus repeatedly placed all people into two groups in terms of their eternal destinies which is the context of Matt 25:31-46 since everyone there either inherits "eternal life" (Matt 25:46) or is sent to "everlasting fire" for "eternal punishment" (Matt 25:41,46).

Jesus said "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters" (Matt 12:30). He doesn't allow for any wiggle room there. Everyone without exception is either with Him or against Him. It doesn't mean someone who is currently against Him can't ever be with Him or vice versa, but at any given time all people are either with Him (saved) or against Him (lost).

In my view, what I said above should be the foundation for understanding any passage where Jesus contrasted two groups of people where one group are clearly all saved people and one group all are lost.

In the parable of the wheat and the weeds (tares), Jesus differentiated between "the people of the kingdom" and "the people of the evil one" (Matt 13:38). All people fit into one of those groups or the other without exception.

In the parable of the fishing net (Matt 13:47-50), Jesus contrasted "the good" ("the righteous) with "the bad" ("the wicked") and said they will all be separated into those groups at the end of the age. Again, all people fit into one of those groups or the other without exception.

What is the difference between those parables and what Jesus taught in Matt 25:31-46? In each of those parables, all people are gathered into two groups to face eternal reward or punishment. That is what we see in Matt 25:31-46 as well. So, I don't see any basis for thinking that Jesus was talking about something different in those parables than what He talked about in Matt 25:31-46.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 5, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Mat 25:34 Then the King shall say to those on His right hand, Come, blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

The people who He is talking to are not those who had died in Christ and had been resurrected at His appearance - they are people who were judged by their works.

When do you believe the following happens and when do you believe Matthew 25:31-46 happens?

2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Who is Paul talking about here? Note that he says "we", so he is including himself.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 5, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Ignoring the rest of scripture when it suits you, and including other scriptures when it suits you, does not prove or support your argument.

We could say the same to you, but are any of us really ignoring scripture as you are accusing BABerean2 of doing? I don't believe so. I don't think you are. I know I'm not. We are just interpreting the same scriptures differently. So be it. It happens. But accusing someone of ignoring scripture is just offensive and accomplishes nothing.

Remember when things got a bit out of hand a few weeks ago and people were resorting to insults? That is happening again. Last time we were able to talk it out and calm down and then speak to each other more respectfully. I'd rather discuss the scriptures respectfully without the personal insults. I'm talking to myself, too. What do you say? Can we do that?

Zao is life · Nov 5, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
When do you believe the following happens and when do you believe Matthew 25:31-46 happens?

2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Who is Paul talking about here? Note that he says "we", so he is including himself.

He's also including me.

I believe it will be after the resurrection/rapture of the saints, and it will take place in the throne-room in heaven, where Christ is seated. I also do not necessarily believe that all the resurrected saints are going to be given the task of ruling over the nations during the millennium. Since it's not the NHNE, I don't even think there will be space for so many.

Christ will not have to be on earth to rule through His resurrected saints on earth, either. I know that most PreMils seem to believe He will be - but Christ was able to appear to hundreds of people in various places at the same time after His resurrection. He walked through walls. He appeared out of nowhere. He appeared to Paul even after His ascension.

Bottom line: We are not given ALL the answers to ALL our questions, and for now, we see as through a stained glass mirror. We are told what we need to know - but not everything we want to know.

I don't guess.

Zao is life · Nov 5, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
We could say the same to you, but are any of us really ignoring scripture as you are accusing BABerean2 of doing? I don't believe so. I don't think you are. I know I'm not. We are just interpreting the same scriptures differently. So be it. It happens. But accusing someone of ignoring scripture is just offensive and accomplishes nothing.

Remember when things got a bit out of hand a few weeks ago and people were resorting to insults? That is happening again. Last time we were able to talk it out and calm down and then speak to each other more respectfully. I'd rather discuss the scriptures respectfully without the personal insults. I'm talking to myself, too. What do you say? Can we do that?

No No No. It's the favorite kind of expression BaBerean2 uses when he levels the same sort of accusations against whoever he's debating with.

Put your guns back in your holster. I realize you can't wait to find a reason to pull me up the way I did with you when you needed it, but you're charging ahead and firing before the time.

Wait for the platoon sergeant to give you the order to charge.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 5, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
The pit was locked and the angel who unlocks it is Satan, who unlocks it from the outside. The star fallen from heaven is a fallen star, and this fallen star was given the key. Are you saying that it's an angel of God who unlocks the pit?

John did not say that the star was fallen. You are reading that into the text. First of all, we're talking about a symbolic star here falling from the sky. That was a vision John had and not a prophecy about a literal star falling from the sky and I'm sure you would agree as I can see already that you interpret the symbolic star to be an angel rather than a literal star.

So, all John was saying is that he saw a symbolic vision that symbolically represented an angel descending from heaven. That can't be describing a fallen angel (demon) because Satan and his angels were all cast out of heaven when Jesus ascended there (Rev 12:5-9). So, for you to interpret the angel from heaven to be Satan unlocking the pit rather than an angel of God unlocking the pit to let Satan and his angels out just boggles my mind. Our interpretations couldn't be any more different.

If Satan was inside the pit already, then the angel who hands the key to Satan would first have to unlock the pit if Satan was inside it.

You don't even see how illogical this argument of yours is. Besides this, nowhere in the New Testament are we told that Satan is in the pit - see the OP in this thread.

Please think about this more carefully. Why in the world would God ever allow Satan to have the key to the abyss when it is God who determines who is in the abyss or not? Surely, Satan would misuse the key if it was given to him, don't you think? God is in complete control of the spirit realm, not Satan. They can only do what God allows them to do, so He has all the keys and He'd never give it to Satan.

Rev 1:I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Based on the Greek language and grammar we know that the words "a thousand years" in Revelation 20 is talking about a one-thousand year period, and that it does not mean a symbolic "thousand years" which is "thousands of years" (again - see the OP of this thread).

Based on the Greek language? So, we have to interpret scripture based on the Greek language rather than using spiritual discernment?

Do you believe that the 70 weeks of Daniel are 70 seven day time periods? If the thousand years has to be exactly one thousand literal years then you should be consistent and view all prophetic time periods as being literal, right? Or do you not see Daniel's 70 weeks that way?

Do you believe the following is referring to a literal one hour time period?

Rev 17:8 “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.

Do you think that the ten horns/ten kings John saw will only have authority for literally one hour? It doesn't seem like they could accomplish much in 60 minutes. That doesn't seem reasonable. I'd say the "one hour" is figurative and not literal, wouldn't you? Yet, the Greek language and grammar says it's one hour. Maybe assuming prophetic time is literal rather than figurative isn't a good idea.

There is only one resurrection from the dead and it's in Christ. He IS the resurrection and the life, the last Adam and the Son of Man - the first resurrection. The only resurrection that takes place in the creation is in Christ.

That's true so far. Amen! He is the only one so far who has risen form the dead unto bodily immortality.

The resurrection of the witnesses and of those who are Christ's at His coming are "synegeiro" - with Christ's resurrection (it's the resurrection of those who died in Christ). There is no 2nd and 3rd and 4th resurrection. The resurrection of the two witnesses = the resurrection of those who are Christ's at His coming = the resurrection of those who had been beheaded by the beast for their testimony to Jesus and their refusal to worship the beast or its image or receive its mark or the number of its name.

It was fun to agree even for a very short time. Oh well. Where does scripture itself say what you're saying here? I don't believe it does. Instead, scripture says there's an order to the resurrection of the dead unto bodily immortality.

1 Cor 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

This is very clear. Christ was the first to be resurrected unto bodily immortality. That's the first resurrection and all believers have part in it spiritually. A first implies a second. The next resurrection (the second) in order will be those who belong to Christ (the dead in Christ - 1 Thess 4:13-17) and they will be resurrected at His second coming.

ewq1938 · Nov 5, 2020

BABerean2 said:
2Ti 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:

At the 7th trump the dead in Christ and the living in Christ are judged and rewarded which is the time of the resurrection and rapture.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 5, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
I said:

When do you believe the following happens and when do you believe Matthew 25:31-46 happens?

2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Who is Paul talking about here? Note that he says "we", so he is including himself.

Click to expand...

He's also including me.

I believe it will be after the resurrection/rapture of the saints, and it will take place in the throne-room in heaven, where Christ is seated. I also do not necessarily believe that all the resurrected saints are going to be given the task of ruling over the nations during the millennium. Since it's not the NHNE, I don't even think there will be space for so many.

Christ will not have to be on earth to rule through His resurrected saints on earth, either. I know that most PreMils seem to believe He will be - but Christ was able to appear to hundreds of people in various places at the same time after His resurrection. He walked through walls. He appeared out of nowhere. He appeared to Paul even after His ascension.

Can you clarify how you see the timing of 1 Cor 5:10 and Matt 25:31-46 since it appears you see them as separate events? I believe you are post-trib like me, right? Which would mean you see the rapture as occurring at His second coming after "the tribulation of those days" (Matt 24:29-31).

So, you would see us (believers, including the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain) as being caught up to meet the Lord in the air and then we are taken to heaven "to receive what is due us for the things done in the body", right?

So, when does Matt 25:31-46 happen in that case? It says it happens when He comes with His angels and He sits on His glorious throne of judgment. How long will the sheep and the goats have to wait for us to be rewarded first and then they appear before Him? What will they be doing while they're waiting for us to be rewarded?

Bottom line: We are not given ALL the answers to ALL our questions, and for now, we see as through a stained glass mirror. We are told what we need to know - but not everything we want to know.

I don't guess.

What we are told is that all people, including Paul, you and I will stand before Christ to be judged according to the things we did during this life. That is depicted in Matt 25:31-46 and it's shown to occur at His second coming. What also is shown to occur at that time is that unbelievers will be cast into "everlasting fire" for "eternal punishment", which is exactly what we see described in Rev 20:10-15.

While Matt 25:31-46 does not specifically refer to people being resurrected at Christ's second coming with His angels to judge people, we can safely assume that because of what is said in passages like 1 Thess 4:13-17, 1 Cor 15:20-24, John 5:28-29 and Rev 20:10-15. That is because passages like those indicate that people are resurrected when He comes and that people are judged immediatley after being resurrected.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 5, 2020

DavidPT said:
If Amil is true it simply means saints are being martyred left and right while satan is in the pit.

Sure, why not? Because amil understands that it's not a physical pit that a spiritual being can be locked up in without being able to do anything at all. Premil interprets symbols literally, which is not wise. Does Rev 20 say he is bound from persecuting Christians?

Spiritual Jew · Nov 5, 2020

DavidPT said:
Like I have pointed out numerous times already, look at how Revelation 11 ends.

Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Nothing here has a single thing to do with the great white throne judgment in Revelation 20:11-15. It is silly to think that there is an earthquake, and great hail, occurring during the events recorded in Revelation 20:11-15.

It's also silly to interpret those things literally within a highly symbolic book. Let's put your literalist method of interpreting things like that to the test.

Rev 6:9 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Do you interpret this all literally like you do Rev 11:19? If so, can you explain how the earth would not be completely annihilated if "the stars in the sky fell to earth"?

Obviously, it is already that time before the last verse in Revelation 11 is even fulfilled, therefore the time of the dead is only meaning in regards to the saved and not the lost as well. The fact the dead in Christ rise first proves this, that it is already the time of the dead before verse 19 is ever fulfilled. Obviously as well, unless one lacks the ability to logically reason through things, one should already know Revelation 20:11-15 couldn't possibly already be in progress before verse 19 is fulfilled first. As to verse 19, where in Revelation does it pick up where it left off here? Ch 20 and verses 11-15? I don't think so. Maybe one should try ch 15 and 16 instead. That sounds like a better idea.

Are you sure you're reading the passage carefully?

Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small—and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

Notice that John differentiated between "judging the dead" and rewarding believers. Who are "the dead" in Rev 20:11-15? Unbelievers, right? Despite being resurrected they are still referred to as "the dead" because they are still dead in their sins and were not saved.

The Greek word translated as "judging" in Rev 11:18 is krinō (Strong's G2919). That word is also used in these passages:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn (Greek: krinō) the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned (krinō), but whoever does not believe stands condemned (krinō) already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Here, it is used in the sense of condemning unbelievers.

How is it used elsewhere in Revelation? That should give us a good idea of how to understand it in Rev 11:18, wouldn't you agree? Let's see.

Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge (krinō) the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?

It's clearly referred to here in relation to unbelievers because it's used in relation to God avenging the blood of slain believers.

How about this one:

Rev 16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged (krinō) thus. 6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

Again, it's used in relation to judging unbelievers.

How about here:

Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: 2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged (krinō) the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

Once again, it's used in relation to judging a wicked entity, in this case "the great harlot" of Babylon.

How about in the passage that you claim cannot be the same event that Rev 11:15-19 is referring to?

Rev 20:11
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged (krinō) out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged (krinō) every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

And yet again, we see the word used in relation to judging and condemning unbelievers.

With all of this in mind, what basis is there for concluding that the mention of it being the time of the dead being judged in Rev 11:18 is only referring to believers? None. It's talking about the time when believers are rewarded and unbelievers are condemned. When will that be? According to Matthew 25:31-46 it will be when Christ comes with His angels and according to Rev 20:11-15 it will be after the thousand years. That logically supports amil and I know you love logic.

DavidPT · Nov 5, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
Please give me a list of the names of those who have posted on this thread that don't think context matters.

To be fair then, context matters to everyone, yet IMO some are still trying to interpret the sheep and goats judgment apart from context, thus coming up with ludicrous conclusions such as the goats representing all of the lost that has ever lived. Let's see if that might work with some of the text involved. Let's use unrepentant satanists, witches, and atheists, as some examples of the lost and see if they might fit the goats.

Since I am discussing this with you in particular, and the fact I have been knowing you for years, I had decided ages ago that you are a very reasonable person, period. Which to me means, reasonable ppl should recognize when something sounds reasonable or not. I'm going to present 2 scenarios, then you tell me which sounds more reasonable. A) or B) below.

A) Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they, the unrepentant satanists, witches, and atheists, also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

B) Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they, the unprofitable servants of Christ, also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

BABerean2 · Nov 5, 2020

ewq1938 said:
At the 7th trump the dead in Christ and the living in Christ are judged and rewarded which is the time of the resurrection and rapture.

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

.

ewq1938 · Nov 5, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

.

The issues here for Amil:

1. It shows the righteous are resurrected first before the unrighteous are resurrected. That disproves what Amil claims regarding all being resurrected at the same time.

2. It also does not state how much time passes between the first resurrection and the second resurrection. Rev 20 provides that info as being a thousand years since "the rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years are finished" which is the second resurrection of a group of the dead found in Rev 20. The first group is the first resurrection, the second group a thousand years later is the second resurrection.

3. Amil denies there is a first and second resurrection yet this verse and Rev 20 does prove it.

4. "the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice" . Hour here is not 60 minutes showing all the saved and unsaved resurrect in the same literal hour. The archaic English in the KJV makes it harder to understand but it should be understood like this: "the TIME is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice". This is similar to someone saying, "there is a time when all will die." which is not expressing that all people die at the same time but that all have a time that they will experience death.

Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

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