Are you saved because you believe? Or do you believe because you are saved?

QvQ

Member
Aug 18, 2019
1,629
706
AZ
✟99,719.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Thank you for confirming that you are unable to provide scriptural evidence to back up your claim that "Repentance was part of the works of the Law that could not save." as evidenced by the fact that you didn't provide any.

I could be like you and just tell you to read Paul so that you would see things my way, but that doesn't make for a very convincing argument, does it?
Salvation establishes a relationship with God. The Laws of God are obeyed to maintain that relationship. Repentance is part of the works of law that could not save. Repentance does not establish a relationship with God (save) but being unrepentant does damage the foundation of that relationship.
Luke 6:49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great
 
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
7,394
2,496
MI
✟308,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Salvation establishes a relationship with God. The Laws of God are obeyed to maintain that relationship. Repentance is part of the works of law that could not save.
Please show me the scripture which teaches that "repentance is part of the works of the law that could not save".
 
Upvote 0

John Mullally

Well-Known Member
Aug 5, 2020
2,349
813
Califormia
✟131,250.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Salvation establishes a relationship with God. The Laws of God are obeyed to maintain that relationship. Repentance is part of the works of law that could not save. Repentance does not establish a relationship with God (save) but being unrepentant does damage the foundation of that relationship.
Luke 6:49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great
The term "Works of the Law" has special significance. Galatians 2:16 says that "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ". If repentance is a "Work of the Law", then in Acts 2, Peter was telling the unsaved who were crying out "What shall we do?" after being told that "God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ” to perform a "Work of the Law" which according to Galatians 2:16 cannot save. So it makes no sense for repentance to be a "Work of the Law". The first 5 books of the OT were considered in that day to be "The Law". The Law was given by Moses. "Thou shalt repent" is not one of the 10 commandments. Repentance is a result of faith.

Galatians 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.​

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

James 2:20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?​
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

QvQ

Member
Aug 18, 2019
1,629
706
AZ
✟99,719.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Please show me the scripture which teaches that "repentance is part of the works of the law that could not save".
Luke 6:48-49 Jesus said "Those who hear and do" "Those who hear and do not do)
Jesus did not say "Those who haven't, cannot, or won't hear." Jesus was talking to the saved about obeying the law, therefore repentance is part of the Law, not part of the House. It is the difference between the structure of the house (salvation) and the building codes (Laws). If I am building a house (building a relationship with God) the materials are assembled (salvation) and the building codes (repentance) are Laws that can strengthen the house or weaken it. Repentance is part of works of the Law that could not save. The house is established whether it is strongly built or flimsy. Salvation is established whether it is strengthened by repentance or weakened by sin.
Those two verses are for the Saved, those who have heard, who are building their house of Faith and sin is a poor foundation for that house.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Thank you for confirming that you are unable to provide scriptural evidence to back up your claim that "Repentance was part of the works of the Law that could not save." as evidenced by the fact that you didn't provide any.

I could be like you and just tell you to read Paul so that you would see things my way, but that doesn't make for a very convincing argument, does it?
I have lots to share. But the time comes when people move beyond simple discussion. And I don't care to go there.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Do you mean Peter was preaching to the choir? I don't think "hearing" requires a familiarity with the doctrine before the doctrine is heard and accepted. That would mean that the only existence and proof of God is the doctrine.
Only the born again could make sense of it. Here's how it works.
“So I am willing to endure anything if it will bring salvation and eternal glory in Christ Jesus to those God has chosen.” 2 Timothy 2:10 (NLT)
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,113
7,243
Dallas
✟873,884.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
If we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, we all die. Why be angry because God chose to be generous with some? Is not this whole creation his to do with as he pleases? Where do you get withholding, then? Malicious intent???? It is not God, but the sinner, who willfully turned against his own creator!

Man can only be held accountable if he is capable of meeting God’s expectations. Man cannot be rightly judged and punished for failing to meet impossible expectations.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,113
7,243
Dallas
✟873,884.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Salvation establishes a relationship with God. The Laws of God are obeyed to maintain that relationship. Repentance is part of the works of law that could not save. Repentance does not establish a relationship with God (save) but being unrepentant does damage the foundation of that relationship.
Luke 6:49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great

Why did you chose not to show the first half of that message? Is it because it resembles repentance?

“"Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say? Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like: he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built. But the one who has heard and has not acted accordingly, is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation; and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great."”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:46-49‬ ‭NASB
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,113
7,243
Dallas
✟873,884.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Salvation establishes a relationship with God. The Laws of God are obeyed to maintain that relationship. Repentance is part of the works of law that could not save. Repentance does not establish a relationship with God (save) but being unrepentant does damage the foundation of that relationship.
Luke 6:49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great

Salvation is the result of a relationship with God. If you have a relationship with Him you are already saved. Repentance is turning away from sin and towards God. You can’t have a relationship with God without repentance.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: John Mullally
Upvote 0

QvQ

Member
Aug 18, 2019
1,629
706
AZ
✟99,719.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Man can only be held accountable if he is capable of meeting God’s expectations. Man cannot be rightly judged and punished for failing to meet impossible expectations.
Jesus fulfilled the Law. Jesus demonstrated that a carpenter from Galilee could obey the laws of God. Jesus proved that God's expectations were not impossible. The Pharisees were making heavy burdens of the Law.
Matthew 23:4 and Luke 11:46
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,113
7,243
Dallas
✟873,884.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Repentance was part of the works of the Law that could not save. In the NT we preached that Jews who were saved by grace needed to repent from Law-keeping and Judaism. This was largely the case at Pentecost and days following. If you are born again it is your new nature to repent. Believe and repentance is a sign a person is born again. Not a condition people are to meet in order to save themselves, as is the current trend today in free will thought.

As usual you have it backwards.

“Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38‬ ‭NASB
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

QvQ

Member
Aug 18, 2019
1,629
706
AZ
✟99,719.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Salvation is the result of a relationship with God. If you have a relationship with Him you are already saved. Repentance is turning away from sin and towards God. You can’t have a relationship with God without repentance.
A person who is a sinner can have a relationship with God. Salvation isn't something we earn or else we would all be cast out. How unworthy we are! Salvation would be impossible if it were merely the operation of law because we all sin and fall short. An atheist can turn away from sin, repent maybe because sin is sickening and destructive but that does not establish a relationship with God.
 
Upvote 0

John Mullally

Well-Known Member
Aug 5, 2020
2,349
813
Califormia
✟131,250.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
I would be misinforming people. Most are smarter than that.
You have probably used the phrase "Works of the Law" at least 100 times on this and other threads to refute other peoples points. Now when someone calls you out on that, you are dodging.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,113
7,243
Dallas
✟873,884.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Jesus fulfilled the Law. Jesus demonstrated that a carpenter from Galilee could obey the laws of God. Jesus proved that God's expectations were not impossible. The Pharisees were making heavy burdens of the Law.
Matthew 23:4 and Luke 11:46

Jesus kept the law to show that man is capable of keeping the law? So He was just some ordinary carpender from Galilee? Was He not God at that time? Was He not God even while He was in Mary’s womb? You should just stop while your behind before you get even farther behind. Jesus being God is incapable of doing anything that is outside of God’s character. God cannot sin. Jesus is incapable of sin. Jesus came to sacrifice Himself for us because He is the only one who is capable of being the perfect sacrifice. I seem to have made a mistake here I thought you were a Calvinist who believed in his doctrines of tulip.
 
Upvote 0

QvQ

Member
Aug 18, 2019
1,629
706
AZ
✟99,719.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Why did you chose not to show the first half of that message? Is it because it resembles repentance?

“"Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say? Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like: he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built. But the one who has heard and has not acted accordingly, is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation; and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great."”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:46-49‬ ‭NASB
Both men built a house. Repentance does not supply the material or the labor. Faith alone, Grace alone provided the House. Repentance does not supply any material to salvation. The foundation and structure of a Christian life requires repentance but is not necessary For Salvation. Repentance is the work of the law, to make a good house or a bad house but not repentance work sheet, necessity for salvation.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

QvQ

Member
Aug 18, 2019
1,629
706
AZ
✟99,719.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Jesus kept the law to show that man is capable of keeping the law? So He was just some ordinary carpender from Galilee? Was He not God at that time? Was He not God even while He was in Mary’s womb? You should just stop while your behind before you get even farther behind. Jesus being God is incapable of doing anything that is outside of God’s character. God cannot sin. Jesus is incapable of sin. Jesus came to sacrifice Himself for us because He is the only one who is capable of being the perfect sacrifice. I seem to have made a mistake here I thought you were a Calvinist who believed in his doctrines of tulip.
Yes, Jesus is God. But He was also a humble carpenter from Galilee. I am speaking of His actions as a simple carpenter which demonstrate that an ordinary person can obey the laws of God that were set down for man. I am not denying Christ's divinity or His Perfection. I am not denying the Nicene Creed.
I am merely saying that Jesus in the role of a simple man, doing what a simple man did could obey the laws. He did warn the Pharisees about all the Laws and the burden thereof.
I have admired Jesus simple walk through life, His being a simple man who had a simple man's cares and temptations, how He handled that. It is an example I try to emulate. I don't try to walk on water but I do try to emulate the humanity of Christ.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0