Kentucky Police Training Quoted Hitler and Urged 'Ruthless' Violence

SummerMadness · Nov 3, 2020

It's interesting that police officers quoting Hitler with attribution and encouraging violence is the topic of discussion, yet the issue for some is that pointing this out is the real issue. The false argument that this represents all police officers is tiring, as no one is making such an argument. The argument being made is that these officers promote these views and are in positions to influence other police officers. The fact that we see issues like this regularly suggests whatever systems are in place to keep the police bigot/racist-free is obviously in need of an overhaul.

NerdGirl · Nov 3, 2020

Trogdor the Burninator said:
Apparently Kentucky Police have some wicked new cop cars on order...

Completely irrelevant, but your signature made me stop and laugh!!!

Ana the Ist · Nov 3, 2020

I mean honestly....the left hasn't even tried to identify the problem. If they worked nearly as hard to do that as they have tried to convince you of the explanation....I'd be far more convinced that not only is it a problem, but that they genuinely want to solve it.

Do you really think they do?

I get that you'll say "police brutality" just explain what you mean because that's a broad term that describes a lot of actions. It could be as malicious as a cop attacking someone completely unprovoked....or more reactionary like a cop getting viciously assaulted, but ultimately winning the fight....yet he threw a few more punches than we would have liked because of the adrenaline and emotional reaction? Both?

If the left was serious....they'd first be asking this stuff, discussing it, and coming up with answers that I suspect will vary depending upon what type of police brutality we're talking about. That's not happening. There's no real conversation at all...

In fact, the conversation did the exact opposite...they started with the conclusion. Systemic racism. What is that exactly? They don't want to define it clearly because then it might not apply. Just believe them when they say it...if you don't, they'll call you a bad person and label you as a part of the problem.

Does that strike you as a group of people seriously trying to solve a problem? It's not like problem solving is a big mystery...there's a process, but starting with the conclusion is always wrong. It happens on accident sometimes....but it's hard to believe that's the case when so much time is spent dogmatically trying to convince people of the "answer".

On this issue, the left doesn't have any answers....they only have dogma. Believe these people because they aren't ever wrong. They'll give you endless examples, promises to solve the problem, you'll buy it and the problem will remain for the next candidate.

Ana the Ist · Nov 3, 2020

SummerMadness said:
The false argument that this represents all police officers is tiring, as no one is making such an argument.

Don't make things up....we all have eyes. They aren't out in the streets throwing bricks at just the bad cops. They aren't burning down the police stations of just the bad cops. They aren't asking cities to just defund bad police.

They're literally chanting "All Cops Are Bad" and writing ACAB all over their communities.

This isn't a nuanced argument and frankly I don't think anyone on the left could possibly define "racism" if I gave them all day. If they did that, it would have to apply to every race equally....because they are definitely angry at cops of every race. It's either that or admit to the possibility that this isn't about race.

That would change the conversation entirely wouldn't it? Better avoid that altogether....

Trogdor the Burninator · Nov 3, 2020

Ana the Ist said:
I mean honestly....the left hasn't even tried to identify the problem.

Well, I'd say quoting Adolf Hitler in police training material is a problem. I mean, people literally fought a war over this stuff.

Ana the Ist said:
I get that you'll say "police brutality" just explain what you mean because that's a broad term that describes a lot of actions. It could be as malicious as a cop attacking someone completely unprovoked....or more reactionary like a cop getting viciously assaulted, but ultimately winning the fight....yet he threw a few more punches than we would have liked because of the adrenaline and emotional reaction? Both?

I'm hardly "the left", but I'm pretty sure most people can work out what police brutality is. But if we need a list:-
Unprovoked assault = bad
Shooting unarmed people = bad
Deploying tear gas or pepper spray on peaceful protesters or members of the press = bad
Shooting an armed offender in self-defence = OK
Shooting an armed offender who is a direct threat to the public = OK
Using force to disarm or subdue a clearly violent offender = OK
Using tear gas or pepper spray to disperse a crowd looting a shop = OK

Was that so hard? I'd say most people apart from the far right or edgy student lefties would agree with that list.

Trogdor the Burninator · Nov 3, 2020

Ana the Ist said:
They're literally chanting "All Cops Are Bad" and writing ACAB all over their communities.

Because some people are fed up with bad policing and believe that things will never change. If you talked to them I'd wager most of the people writing ACAB don't believe it to be literally true, but they DO want things to change. And that's the conversation that isn't happening now because no one is prepared to listen to "the other side".

rambot · Nov 3, 2020

Ana the Ist said:
I don't want you to think I haven't listened or considered the perspectives of individuals and their experiences. Those are very useful if I want to understand a person and the way they see things. At the same time, it would be completely wrong to generalize about an entire race of people based on those few experiences I have been exposed to. It could be 100 or a million stories....they are useless as evidence.

I've considered the commonly accepted explanation of these problems the left had come up with. I've looked at more factors than I can remember. Is it training? Police are definitely taught to respond to lethal force with lethal force. I don't see how to change that...I can't reasonably expect the police to just not fight back when someone is trying to kill them.

Are they racist? Are all police racist? I don't see any reason to believe that either...the left has dragged a few racists out of the police and that's good. I want them gone. That has changed anything though. I also think it's good that we appear to be seriously prosecuting cops who commit crimes. Those are the good results of what the left has done with police.

The problem is those aren't the only results. I've seen the left distort the meaning of words so they can be broadly applied in ways that don't really work. I get that the left thinks the police are systemically racist...but they can't tell me what that means. They definitely believe it...but is it policies? Laws? Individual cops? No one can really say....

So how do they know it's happening? Because they're told so. I get why people looked at Michael Brown and considered that it was racial. It's a white cop....unarmed black teen...it's definitely a reasonable question. Let's be honest though, it doesn't matter what race the cop is and at this point and now, it doesn't even matter if he did anything wrong. The most recent example I saw involved a black man with a knife he was swinging at a cop getting shot and killed. It had the exact same reaction as all the others.

So what's going on here? I don't really believe that even most black people expect a cop to just allow himself to be stabbed by an attacker. Why would that ever justify the rioting and looting that followed?

Are we still trying to confront a serious problem? Because no matter how many police you train, or how many times you tell them they might be unconsciously biased (which is a fun explanation) it doesn't seem to affect what the problem is.

Are we trying to stop cops from shooting unarmed black people? Or is it armed black people? Police brutality in general? If so...what is the expectation for a police force that routinely confronts violent crimes? Are we trying to confront racism and remove racist cops....or racist laws....or?

If you want me to think there's a problem with racism in police....you're going to have to explain how you identify the problem. I don't see any method at all....you just seem to blindly accept it.

That explanation actually makes the most sense because I can give you almost an endless number of examples of people on the left who claim that we should just believe people who say this problem is both real and very large. The reason given they say we should believe them....is because they're black.

That's not a reasonable proposition. It's completely ridiculous. Being a person of a particular race doesn't make you factually correct. It's never going to be a reason to believe anyone on anything. Everyone is wrong sometimes....everyone has their own perspective.

That's created it's own problem...because if a large enough group of people on the left accept that a group of people are an authority on a subject because they declared them an authority....that's dogmatic thinking. The left has abandoned facts and evidence and accepted dogmatic thinking.

In 8 years...the left only ever engaged with one side of this problem....the black community. They never engaged with the police. It's fair at this point to ask why? Do they really want to solve a problem or do they just want to indulge the beliefs of some black people for political support?

If the left really wants to confront the problem they'll have to return to facts and evidence and reconsider their own explanations. I don't know they can do that....I think that at least politically, they're too scared of losing support by merely suggesting to a group of people that they might be wrong and the problem is simply far more complicated than the simplistic racial explanations that they never deviate from.

If the downside to this strategy was simply that you never solved the problem...I wouldn't be that worried. I'm not sure you can actually prove the problem is that large. The downside now appears much larger though. We're seeing widespread damage and destruction, rioting and death. We're seeing the public's confidence in police severely undermined and the police's confidence that they can do their jobs, even correctly, severely diminished. We're already seeing the results...all kinds of crime and violence are rising in the very communities the left is claiming it wants to help.

I wouldn't know what else to say. The left should drop the racial politics it's latched onto and return to facts and evidence. Stop trying to redefine words. Stop indulging people based on race and gender and everything else....these things don't matter when it comes to facts. Facts remain the same whatever your identity is.

That's a difficult road to take...but I don't see any other options if they're serious about solving problems. Until they either realize this....or are forced to acknowledge it....they'll probably continue to do damage.

Dogmatic thinking isn't new, racial politics is ugly and when it leaks into policy....it's damaging. Anyone can be wrong....about anything. I don't see the left abandoning it's dogma though....and why would they? They just found an enemy you'll unite against. They know they can reliably find 6-12 incidents of bad cops a year you'll get riled up about....why would they let go of that?

I suspect the solution to this problem will always appear just out of reach for the left.

I would note I am open to the possibility that there isn't systemic racism in the courts; I don't believe that but I could be okay with that as a starting point.

But simply put, I do not think that policing in America is done well. Frankly, I think it's done quite poorly.

rambot · Nov 3, 2020

Trogdor the Burninator said:
Well, I'd say quoting Adolf Hitler in police training material is a problem. I mean, people literally fought a war over this stuff.

I'm hardly "the left", but I'm pretty sure most people can work out what police brutality is. But if we need a list:-
Unprovoked assault = bad
Shooting unarmed people = bad
Deploying tear gas or pepper spray on peaceful protesters or members of the press = bad
Shooting an armed offender in self-defence = OK
Shooting an armed offender who is a direct threat to the public = OK
Using force to disarm or subdue a clearly violent offender = OK
Using tear gas or pepper spray to disperse a crowd looting a shop = OK

Was that so hard? I'd say most people apart from the far right or edgy student lefties would agree with that list.

I would add "undue harrassment" = bad
lack of descalation focus OR skills = bad
quick to draw (and justify) lethal force when not necessary = bad
racial profiling = bad
qualified immunity = bad
firing whistleblowers =bad
harassing whistleblowers = bad

Ana the Ist · Nov 3, 2020

rambot said:
I would note I am open to the possibility that there isn't systemic racism in the courts; I don't believe that but I could be okay with that as a starting point.

But simply put, I do not think that policing in America is done well. Frankly, I think it's done quite poorly.

Well I think that's become an issue on the left...because it's hard for me to think that so many people have simply abandoned the idea of innocent until proven guilty....but that's what it looks like. They're willing to go along just to get along.

I'm fully willing to identify bad practices....but I don't know why the NYT would even run this story unless it's blatant political manipulation. It's not even a racial quote...it's not clear that it was put there by any cops...it doesn't seem like they genuinely knew who wrote the quote. What damage am I supposed to believe occurred?

Ana the Ist · Nov 4, 2020

Trogdor the Burninator said:
Well, I'd say quoting Adolf Hitler in police training material is a problem. I mean, people literally fought a war over this stuff.

Guys like this?

A good plan violently executed right now is far better than a perfect plan executed next week.
- Gen. George Patton.

Remarkably similar....I guess he's a Nazi? That or even Hitler occasionally spoke about topics other than politics just like everyone else. I don't understand why half the country acts like it's strange that cops train themselves to prepare mentally for a highly stressful and dangerous situation. We do that for a lot of jobs.

You don't even consider the other side of that training. If 25 cops are killed this year and 300 survived a fight for their life....I'd consider that a pretty good result. If I'm to believe that the statistics are mostly correct....it's more like 25 will be killed out of nearly 900-1100 who were in a fight for their life. I understand you would prefer to see dead cops because it's far easier to dismiss their concerns. After all, they don't vote liberal and it's clear why.

SummerMadness · Nov 4, 2020

There's nothing wrong with police officers looking to Hitler for inspirational quotes! I don't know why everyone is focused on John Wayne Gacy's crimes, he was a neighborhood clown that brought joy to so many kids!

rambot · Nov 4, 2020

Ana the Ist said:
Guys like this?

A good plan violently executed right now is far better than a perfect plan executed next week.
- Gen. George Patton.

Remarkably similar....I guess he's a Nazi? That or even Hitler occasionally spoke about topics other than politics just like everyone else. I don't understand why half the country acts like it's strange that cops train themselves to prepare mentally for a highly stressful and dangerous situation. We do that for a lot of jobs.

You don't even consider the other side of that training. If 25 cops are killed this year and 300 survived a fight for their life....I'd consider that a pretty good result. If I'm to believe that the statistics are mostly correct....it's more like 25 will be killed out of nearly 900-1100 who were in a fight for their life. I understand you would prefer to see dead cops because it's far easier to dismiss their concerns. After all, they don't vote liberal and it's clear why.

I don't think one can compare General Patton and the circumstances of war to American society today and feel that comparison is valid.

Tell you what though. Police officers everywhere around the world train dangerous events. I can confidently say in Canada that the phrase "Ruthless violence" is not used anywhere in the police training, NOR is it, or any derivation included as appropriate police work.

There have been plenty of examples of unjustifiable violence that is justified by police supporters by the phrase "what if". In my mind, that is insufficient to use lethal force. Period. If you are going to kill someone, there should be imminent threat upon your life.

Ana the Ist · Nov 4, 2020

SummerMadness said:
There's nothing wrong with police officers looking to Hitler for inspirational quotes! I don't know why everyone is focused on John Wayne Gacy's crimes, he was a neighborhood clown that brought joy to so many kids!

Let's be honest. ..you're the reason not to blow the whistle. You, the NYT, and those like you.

Whatever cop thought leaking this to get it removed was a good idea has now learned his lesson. Never whistleblow. There's no upside at all. Left wing media will just use it to advance an agenda and the liberals who hate cops will try to claim it as evidence.

You're a big part of why good cops don't speak up. They know that speaking up will only make their lives harder. There's no incentive.

This could easily have been a story about a good cop who did the right thing....what we wanted him to do. Instead, it's clearly suggesting they're all violent nazis. Good job. Lesson learned. Never speak up.

It's hard to imagine the left is serious about problems with the police. All they do is look for evidence of wrongdoing, smear them, and repeat. Why would they ever speak up? It's only going to be used against them.

Ana the Ist · Nov 4, 2020

rambot said:
I don't think one can compare General Patton and the circumstances of war to American society today and feel that comparison is valid.

Tell you what though. Police officers everywhere around the world train dangerous events. I can confidently say in Canada that the phrase "Ruthless violence" is not used anywhere in the police training, NOR is it, or any derivation included as appropriate police work.

There have been plenty of examples of unjustifiable violence that is justified by police supporters by the phrase "what if". In my mind, that is insufficient to use lethal force. Period. If you are going to kill someone, there should be imminent threat upon your life.

It's fun to compare them to other countries....because obviously if we compared them to police in the past, we might have to admit that we're complaining the most about the best police we ever had.

It's ballpark 1000 life and death struggles every year. If Canadian police ever faced conditions like that...I would be shocked to hear that their training hasn't changed.

Let's be honest, plenty of those examples were entirely justified but that doesn't really change the reaction of the left.

Trogdor the Burninator · Nov 4, 2020

Ana the Ist said:
Guys like this?

A good plan violently executed right now is far better than a perfect plan executed next week.
- Gen. George Patton.

Remarkably similar....I guess he's a Nazi?

No. Hitler is the Nazi. He's the one with the silly little moustache and the goose step.

Ana the Ist said:
That or even Hitler occasionally spoke about topics other than politics just like everyone else.

So did Joseph Stalin. Are you good with government agencies quoting him during training sessions too?

Ana the Ist said:
I don't understand why half the country acts like it's strange that cops train themselves to prepare mentally for a highly stressful and dangerous situation. We do that for a lot of jobs.

No one is complaining about that.

Ana the Ist said:
You don't even consider the other side of that training. If 25 cops are killed this year and 300 survived a fight for their life....I'd consider that a pretty good result.

I don't. I'd rather see zero dead or injured cops.

Ana the Ist said:
If I'm to believe that the statistics are mostly correct....it's more like 25 will be killed out of nearly 900-1100 who were in a fight for their life. I understand you would prefer to see dead cops because it's far easier to dismiss their concerns. After all, they don't vote liberal and it's clear why.

And I understand that you would prefer to see dead cops because it's far easier than addressing the underlying issues such as gun control, for one. After all, second amendment something something oppressive government something something my rights...

Trogdor the Burninator · Nov 4, 2020

rambot said:
I don't think one can compare General Patton and the circumstances of war to American society today and feel that comparison is valid.

Tell you what though. Police officers everywhere around the world train dangerous events. I can confidently say in Canada that the phrase "Ruthless violence" is not used anywhere in the police training, NOR is it, or any derivation included as appropriate police work.

Here's the thing though - some people advocate that police should train as if in a war, treat the public as enemy combatants, and are then genuinely surprised when some of those members of the public start behaving less like civilians and more like....enemy combatants.

Ana the Ist · Nov 4, 2020

Trogdor the Burninator said:
No. Hitler is the Nazi. He's the one with the silly little moustache and the goose step.

I've heard of him...more times than I ever cared to from the left for about the last 4 years.

So did Joseph Stalin. Are you good with government agencies quoting him during training sessions too?

On what topics? In what context? If it's land management and interpersonal relations...definitely not.

No one is complaining about that.

What's the complaint?

I don't. I'd rather see zero dead or injured cops.

Then why wouldn't we train them for the proper mindset for the most difficult situations we're literally asking them to do?

Remember that cop outside of Parkland High School when a school shooter was stalking the halls killing children? Remember how the left made fun of that guy?

He clearly wasn't mentally prepared to get into an extremely violent life and death situation.

We can train cops for that....or we can accept that there's gonna be a far larger number of those situations where they just wait for the violence to stop. That's not uncommon. It's just not talked about.

And I understand that you would prefer to see dead cops because it's far easier than addressing the underlying issues such as gun control, for one. After all, second amendment something something oppressive government something something my rights...

Obviously you've never seen my position on gun control. Stop assuming you know everything and ask. It's not even difficult.

Your understanding of why the police are this way seems like it's based on fiction.

rambot · Nov 4, 2020

Trogdor the Burninator said:
Here's the thing though - some people advocate that police should train as if in a war, treat the public as enemy combatants, and are then genuinely surprised when some of those members of the public start behaving less like civilians and more like....enemy combatants.

Yes. I see that.

Ana the Ist · Nov 4, 2020

Trogdor the Burninator said:
Here's the thing though - some people advocate that police should train as if in a war, treat the public as enemy combatants, and are then genuinely surprised when some of those members of the public start behaving less like civilians and more like....enemy combatants.

Many black people in many of these communities have described their own neighborhoods as warzones and have for at least the last three decades...

Chiraq | Dictionary.com

Wanna guess when police started increasing numbers and changing tactics?

rambot · Nov 4, 2020

Ana the Ist said:
It's fun to compare them to other countries....because obviously if we compared them to police in the past, we might have to admit that we're complaining the most about the best police we ever had.

Let's be honest, plenty of those examples were entirely justified but that doesn't really change the reaction of the left.

tough finding data on this actually for Canada:
Canada Police deaths: 175 over the last 45 years (so average of just over four per year...or to argue just the homocide deaths....traffic related is iffy, the rest...meh just over 2/year)
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/mani...ian-police-homicides-by-the-numbers-1.4781581

US police deaths:
The Number Of U.S. Police Officers Killed In The Line Of Duty Increased Last Year [Infographic]

The FBI has released its latest statistics regarding line-of-duty deaths and/or assaults on law enforcement officers in the United States. A total of 106 police officers lost their lives on duty last year, a 13% increase on 2017. 55 officers were feloniously killed while 51 died accidentally. The average age of officers killed feloniously was 37 and they had an average tenure of 10 years in law enforcement. Three were female and 52 were male.

55 deaths
Given your population is 10x ours, I gotta say, it's not like your data is ABSOLUTELY SHOCKINGLY out of control.

It's ballpark 1000 life and death struggles every year. If Canadian police ever faced conditions like that...I would be shocked to hear that their training hasn't changed.

How did you come to that number? You've quoted it several times now but I don't recall reading where you got it?
Besides, how would you define that? Is George Floyd a life and death struggle? Some would argue yes. I would say.....hahaha....incorrect.

Also, you remember this beauty?

The social worker talking to his client who had a TOY gun...lying on his back with his hands in the air, STILL managed to get shot by police.
You'll be (I hope) upset to learn that the shooting policeman just got off with little more than a slap and a tickle (from wikki):
In June 2019, Jonathon Aledda was retried and found not guilty on two counts of attempted manslaughter (felony charges) but guilty of culpable negligence, a misdemeanor.[50][51] He was not sentenced to prison, and was instead sentenced to one year of administrative probation, 100 hours of community service, and to write a 2,500-word essay on communication and weapon discharges. His conviction would also not appear on a criminal record due to the withholding of adjudication.[52] He was released from probation less than five months later.[53]

I'm sorry but I'm pretty sure I remember your opinion on this one was pretty much in line with mine; this was some messed up, shoddy police work.

That man is dead and the cop got probation, com. service and an essay? Not even a criminal record (which would allow him to get hired as a copy somewhere else, presumably).

How can we pretend police work in America is competent if the standard of behaviour is THAT low? I have friends who are cops up here in Canada and they were STEAMING MAD when they found out about that shooting.

Kentucky Police Training Quoted Hitler and Urged 'Ruthless' Violence

Senior Veteran

The untamed daughter

Aggressively serene!

Aggressively serene!

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Senior Member

Senior Member

Aggressively serene!

Aggressively serene!

Senior Veteran

Senior Member

Aggressively serene!

Aggressively serene!

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Aggressively serene!

Senior Member

Aggressively serene!

Senior Member

Similar threads