Election fraud (attempt) seen in action

helmut · Nov 4, 2020

Weeks ago, I posted that, since only one person (Trump) knows how there could be fraud in the election, Trump will be the only one who may commit fraud.

Now we see how this fraud should be done:

In one speech, Trump says (correctly, as even CNN says) that while Biden leads in Arizona, the voting not yet count may turn out so that he may win that state, and then complaints that other states (especially Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin) are not called for him where the situation is the other way around: Trump leads, but the votes not yet counted may turn out that these states will be called for Biden.

It is this inconsistency that shows Trump does not act out of ignorance (or a principle alien to a person that thinks every vote should be counted), he deliberately says things that are quite untrue. He wants to stop counting of votes where such counting will turn against him.

The most embarrassing fact is: He says so even before anyone says that Biden has won the electoral vote - we simply do not know who did.

So my prediction has come true. Now I dare further predictions:

There will be radical Trump supporters who will go on the streets, showing their arms and demanding that Trump should be acknowledge of trump as president elect.
At least at some places this will lead to violence, maybe breaking into poll station to stop the counting, or clashes between Trump radical supporters and radical leftists like Antifa.
Within a week Putin will recognize Trump as legitimate president elect, and then compares the situation in the USA with the situation in Belarus where the people are demonstrating against a manipulated election since weeks ... and maybe other foreign forces will interfere and support Trump.

As to the last prediction: It is not primarily a question whether Putin (or any other foreign statesman) prefers Trump to Biden - this is an opportunity to weaken America. Putin has declared that he want to take revenge on the USA, and he was certainly very comfortable when Trump alienated important allies, and so made the USA weak again. This should, of course, be weighted against points where Trump is rather adverse to Russia (like North Stream II).

A prolonged time of uncertainty may also be a chance to take actions against the USA (someone mentioned a Chinese attack against Taiwan ... which seems to be rather unlikely, but not impossible).

EDIT: Mainly counties -> counting

disciple Clint · Nov 4, 2020

helmut said:
Weeks ago, I posted that, since only one person (Trump) knows how there could be fraud in the election, Trump will be the only one who may commit fraud.

Now we see how this fraud should be done:

In one speech, Trump says (correctly, as even CNN says) that while Biden leads in Arizona, the voting not yet count may turn out so that he may win that state, and then complaints that other states (especially Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin) are not called for him where the situation is the other way around: Trump leads, but the votes not yet counted may turn out that these states will be called for Biden.

It is this inconsistency that shows Trump does not act out of ignorance (or a principle alien to a person that thinks every vote should be counted), he deliberately says things that are quite untrue. He wants to stop counting of votes where such counties will turn against him.

The most embarrassing fact is: He says so even before anyone says that Biden has won the electorial vote - we simply do not know who did.

So my prediction has come true. Noe I dare further predictions:

There will be radical Trump supporters who will go on the streets, showing their arms and demanding that Trump should be acknowledge of trump as president elect.

At least at some places this will lead to violence, maybe breaking into poll station to stop the counting, or clashes between Trump radical supporters and radical leftists like Antifa.

Within a week Putin will recognize Trump as legitimate president elect, and then compares the situation in the USA with the situation in Belarus where the people are demonstrating against a manipulated election since weeks ... and maybe other foreign forces will interfere and support Trump.

As to the last prediction: It is not primarily a question whether Putin (or any other foreign statesman) prefers Trump to Biden - this is an opportunity to weaken America. Putin has declared that he want to take revenge on the USA, and he was certainly very comfortable when Trump alienated important allies, and so made the USA weak again. This should, of course, be weighted against points where Trump is rather adverse to Russia (like North Stream II).

A prolonged time of uncertainty may also be a chance to take actions against the USA (someone mentioned a Chinese attack against Taiwan ... which seems to be rather unlikely, but not impossible).

Very interesting but..........

mindlight · Nov 4, 2020

helmut said:
Weeks ago, I posted that, since only one person (Trump) knows how there could be fraud in the election, Trump will be the only one who may commit fraud.

Now we see how this fraud should be done:

In one speech, Trump says (correctly, as even CNN says) that while Biden leads in Arizona, the voting not yet count may turn out so that he may win that state, and then complaints that other states (especially Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin) are not called for him where the situation is the other way around: Trump leads, but the votes not yet counted may turn out that these states will be called for Biden.

It is this inconsistency that shows Trump does not act out of ignorance (or a principle alien to a person that thinks every vote should be counted), he deliberately says things that are quite untrue. He wants to stop counting of votes where such counties will turn against him.

The most embarrassing fact is: He says so even before anyone says that Biden has won the electorial vote - we simply do not know who did.

So my prediction has come true. Noe I dare further predictions:

There will be radical Trump supporters who will go on the streets, showing their arms and demanding that Trump should be acknowledge of trump as president elect.

At least at some places this will lead to violence, maybe breaking into poll station to stop the counting, or clashes between Trump radical supporters and radical leftists like Antifa.

Within a week Putin will recognize Trump as legitimate president elect, and then compares the situation in the USA with the situation in Belarus where the people are demonstrating against a manipulated election since weeks ... and maybe other foreign forces will interfere and support Trump.

As to the last prediction: It is not primarily a question whether Putin (or any other foreign statesman) prefers Trump to Biden - this is an opportunity to weaken America. Putin has declared that he want to take revenge on the USA, and he was certainly very comfortable when Trump alienated important allies, and so made the USA weak again. This should, of course, be weighted against points where Trump is rather adverse to Russia (like North Stream II).

A prolonged time of uncertainty may also be a chance to take actions against the USA (someone mentioned a Chinese attack against Taiwan ... which seems to be rather unlikely, but not impossible).

Think that Trump and SCOTUS are beholden to the democratic process. He is obliged to wait until all legitimate votes are counted. There are at least 5 states outstanding , just 2 of which could give this election to Biden.

What this election shows me is an electoral system without proper national organisation. It is chaos with individual counties using different systems. Various large Democrat counties , mainly in the cities, have been especially poor at processing the vote count this election night. Philadelphia county for example in Pennysylvania has a 70-30 Biden margin and has only succeeded in counting half its votes thus far. Well there is 300000 extra votes for Biden just there on existing margins.

But the result of a delayed confirmation that Biden has indeed won certain states where mailin votes have yet to be counted is very bad for democracy. Trump actually seems ready to exploit this and wants to use the courts and the state to support eliminating legitimate votes that were cast by mail, for fear of losing the presidency. I agree this is fraud. But with a better system this should not have been at all possible.

helmut · Nov 4, 2020

helmut said:
Weeks ago, I posted that, since only one person (Trump) knows how there could be fraud in the election, Trump will be the only one who may commit fraud.

...

So my prediction has come true. Noe I dare further predictions:

One prediction has (not literally, but in content) turned out to be false: It was not Putin who was the first to acknowledge Trump as winner, but Slovenia congratulated trump for winning the vote.

helmut · Nov 4, 2020

mindlight said:
Think that Trump and SCOTUS are beholden to the democratic process. He is obliged to wait until all legitimate votes are counted. There are at least 5 states outstanding , just 2 of which could give this election to Biden.

Trump has broken so many informal rules and stretched legislation, I don't think he will stop rioters that demand him to be acknowledged as president elect.

mindlight said:
What this election shows me is an electoral system without proper national organisation. It is chaos with individual counties using different systems. Various large Democrat counties , mainly in the cities, have been especially poor at processing the vote count this election night.

It is only partly poor organization. The voter turnout is the highest for a long time, and this has the biggest effect in cities, where the polling districts have more inhabitants than in rural areas. It is quite normal that projected results will vary during counting, in 1969, the CDU/CSU thought it was the winner of the election, since there was no possible coalition against this party, and then the right-wing and xenophobic NPD did not master the 5% threshold, so eventually the next government was a coalition of SPD and FDP, the CDU/CDU being the opposition. There is an even ore embarrassing story from Lower Saxonia, a German "state" (Bundesland) ...

mindlight said:
But with a better system this should not have been at all possible.

With the audaciousness of Trump, there is perhaps no system that could prevent this in all circumstances.

PS: "Ein Englander in Deutschland." Because of the typing error (Englander instead of "Englaender" or Engländer) I don't think you live in Germany, so what do you want to say with this expression?

mindlight · Nov 4, 2020

helmut said:
Trump has broken so many informal rules and stretched legislation, I don't think he will stop rioters that demand him to be acknowledged as president elect.

It will make no difference, I believe he has lost this.

It is only partly poor organization. The voter turnout is the highest for a long time, and this has the biggest effect in cities, where the polling districts have more inhabitants than in rural areas. It is quite normal that projected results will vary during counting, in 1969, the CDU/CSU thought it was the winner of the election, since there was no possible coalition against this party, and then the right-wing and xenophobic NPD did not master the 5% threshold, so eventually the next government was a coalition of SPD and FDP, the CDU/CDU being the opposition. There is an even ore embarrassing story from Lower Saxonia, a German "state" (Bundesland) ...

Fine that is democracy and reason to wait until the full count is completed. Yes the count is high this time and the mailin votes may have especially inflated the problem of counting for Democrat cities. But this is a chaotic organisation. The German Bundeslaender share the same voting system across their region. There are not county level differences.

With the audaciousness of Trump, there is perhaps no system that could prevent this in all circumstances.

He will not beat this system either, but it still looks chaotic

PS:

Click to expand...

"Ein Englander in Deutschland." Because of the typing error (Englander instead of "Englaender" or Engländer) I don't think you live in Germany, so what do you want to say with this expression?

Actually I am German, living in Germany, but first and foremost I am British. You only need B1 level German to get the passport. Thanks for the spelling correction which has sat there for years with no one noticing

Just to return the favour, your title has a spelling mistake: atempt = attempt.

helmut · Nov 4, 2020

mindlight said:
It will make no difference, I believe he has lost this.

As long aas there are trump supporters who beleive there has been fraud by the Dems, much harm could result.

Slovenia has already congratulated trump for his victory.

mindlight said:
Fine that is democracy and reason to wait until the full count is completed. Yes the count is high this time and the mailin votes may have especially inflated the problem of counting for Democrat cities. But this is a chaotic organisation. The German Bundeslaender share the same voting system across their region. There are not county level differences.

But there are other problems.

Bach in the 1970s, when there were virtually only 3 parties (all others well below the 5%-threshold), there was an election in Lower Saxonia, and the official provisional result (vorläufiges amtliches Endergebnis) gave the coalition of SPD and CDU a 3-seat lead to the CDU. After the mandatory recount (necessary in a proportional system, the final result gave one seat to the CDU, so the lead was only 1 seat. But in the meantime, the new prime minister had already been elected, with only a 1-vote lead against he "no" votes. The CDU demanded the election should be repeated, since it was no clear whether the prime minister would have got a majority at all had the final result been available at his election. They did not succeed in that.

2 years later, the person coalition planned to change the prime minister, but the new candidate did not get a majority. In the end, Ernst Albrecht from the CDU was elected, and after some time he got the FDP into a coalition ...

It is a quite different story, but it shows a deficiency in the system that is in "size" comparable to the deficiency you mentioned.

mindlight said:
Actually I am German, living in Germany, but first and foremost I am British. You only need B1 level German to get the passport.

I see.

mindlight said:
Thanks for the spelling correction which has sat there for years with no one noticing

Just to return the favour, your title has a spelling mistake: atempt = attempt.

The German sentence is in a rather tiny font, so it was only by chance I saw the error, I overlooked it for some time ...

And thanks you for your return, I corrected the typo.

mindlight · Nov 4, 2020

helmut said:
As long aas there are trump supporters who beleive there has been fraud by the Dems, much harm could result.

The process is completely infuriating. There are so many ways in which it is broken and chaotic.

1) Why are the ballots so slow coming in via post, they are talking about the last ones coming in Friday. What is wrong with UPS? Is this something to do with Trumps appointment of the head of the post service.

2) Trump is now talking in terms of legal challenges which will look for evidence of abuse as a way of disqualifying the counting of mailin ballots which he suspects will lose him the Whitehouse

3) Since there is a chaotic and distributed democratic structure to the county level of the electoral process I wonder if Trump can tie the electoral process down forever with local legal challenges with federal implications. Ultimately this will have to go to the Supreme Court which Trump believes he has front-loaded with friends. But in fact each Judge can only adjudicate on actual violations of law.

4) You have a whole bunch of armed militias running around with assault rifles who idolise Trump and love him for his second amendment support. Who knows how these groups will respond to a Trump defeat which Trump excuses to himself with some Qnon type conspiracy theory.

Slovenia has already congratulated trump for his victory.

Well maybe we should throw them out of the EU ;-)

But there are other problems.

Bach in the 1970s, when there were virtually only 3 parties (all others well below the 5%-threshold), there was an election in Lower Saxonia, and the official provisional result (vorläufiges amtliches Endergebnis) gave the coalition of SPD and CDU a 3-seat lead to the CDU. After the mandatory recount (necessary in a proportional system, the final result gave one seat to the CDU, so the lead was only 1 seat. But in the meantime, the new prime minister had already been elected, with only a 1-vote lead against he "no" votes. The CDU demanded the election should be repeated, since it was no clear whether the prime minister would have got a majority at all had the final result been available at his election. They did not succeed in that.

2 years later, the person coalition planned to change the prime minister, but the new candidate did not get a majority. In the end, Ernst Albrecht from the CDU was elected, and after some time he got the FDP into a coalition ...

It is a quite different story, but it shows a deficiency in the system that is in "size" comparable to the deficiency you mentioned.

Presumably the CDU appealed to the Bundestag and was outvoted by members of the SPD-FDP coalition. So it was a simple "might is right" principle that defeated them. Trump is trying to involve SCOTUS and the legal process in his rejection of a result he simply does not like, because it makes him the loser. Also in the USA the proof of some fraud here might involve wrestling with local legislatures and electoral committees. Think America is potentially far more complicated.

jgarden · Nov 4, 2020

mindlight said:
Think that Trump and SCOTUS are beholden to the democratic process. He is obliged to wait until all legitimate votes are counted. There are at least 5 states outstanding , just 2 of which could give this election to Biden.

What this election shows me is an electoral system without proper national organisation. It is chaos with individual counties using different systems. Various large Democrat counties , mainly in the cities, have been especially poor at processing the vote count this election night. Philadelphia county for example in Pennysylvania has a 70-30 Biden margin and has only succeeded in counting half its votes thus far. Well there is 300000 extra votes for Biden just there on existing margins.

But the result of a delayed confirmation that Biden has indeed won certain states where mailin votes have yet to be counted is very bad for democracy. Trump actually seems ready to exploit this and wants to use the courts and the state to support eliminating legitimate votes that were cast by mail, for fear of losing the presidency. I agree this is fraud. But with a better system this should not have been at all possible.

Apparently the Democratic Governors in both Michigan and Wisconisn attempted to shift the counting of mail-in votes to an earlier date , only to have the Republican lgislatures in both states block their iniatives!

If the President and his supporters are now unhappy with these delays in determining the final vote, they have nobody to blame but themselves!

This President was more than willing to abdicate his responsibilities by shifting the total responsibility for combating COVID-19 onto the shoulders of the Governors - when it comes to something which impacts on him personally, like the counting of presidential ballots, he suddenly goes on the offensive claiming that these same individuals can't be trusted because they're involved in a "Deep State" conspiracy to "steal the election!"

NerdGirl · Nov 4, 2020

It does make one wonder.

jgarden · Nov 4, 2020

NerdGirl123 said:
It does make one wonder.
View attachment 287957

If the Democrats were in the business of "stealing elections," why would they have allowed Trump to win both Michigan and Wisconsin by narrow margins in 2016 - paving the way for him to reach the 270 vote plateau needed in the Elecetoral College?

Given the past 4 years have been characterized by a seemingly endless stream of insubstantiated claims of criminal behavior attributed to Trump's opponents, one can only wonder as to why his supporters never tire and begin to openly question their validity of this revolving door of implausinle conspiracies!

Only the most "gullible" in society could have remained on the "Trump train" once he started repeating the claim that the father of "Lying Ted Cruz," was implicated in the JFK assassination - leading one to conclude that many his supporters are actually well aware that this President's assertions are patently false, but for whatever reasons, they just don't care!

That being said, many are still willing to place their lives and those of their families at risk just for the privilege of attending one of Trump's ra!ies - psychologists, psychiatrists, sociologists, polutical scientists and other social scientists will be gainfully ewmployed for decades trying to explain these bizarre behaviors associated with the "Trump Syndrome!"

mindlight · Nov 5, 2020

NerdGirl123 said:
It does make one wonder.
View attachment 287957

Yes strange how they were released so late, having been posted so early, in most cases, maybe you should ask Louis DeJoy about that.

mindlight · Nov 5, 2020

jgarden said:
Apparently the Democratic Governors in both Michigan and Wisconisn attempted to shift the counting of mail-in votes to an earlier date , only to have the Republican lgislatures in both states block their iniatives!

If the President and his supporters are now unhappy with these delays in determining the final vote, they have nobody to blame but themselves!

This President was more than willing to abdicate his responsibilities by shifting the total responsibility for combating COVID-19 onto the shoulders of the Governors - when it comes to something which impacts on him personally, like the counting of presidential ballots, he suddenly goes on the offensive claiming that these same individuals can't be trusted because they're involved in a "Deep State" conspiracy to "steal the election!"

He is about to have the biggest defeat of his life. He will do anything to get out of that. Including attempts to blatantly manipulate the electoral process.

mindlight · Nov 5, 2020

jgarden said:
If the Democrats were in the business of "stealing elections," why would they have allowed Trump to win both Michigan and Wisconsin by narrow margins in 2016 - paving the way for him to reach the 270 vote plateau needed in the Elecetoral College?

Given the past 4 years have been characterized by a seemingly endless stream of insubstantiated claims of criminal behavior attributed to Trump's opponents, one can only wonder as to why his supporters never tire and begin to openly question their validity of this revolving door of implausinle conspiracies!

Only the most "gullible" in society could have remained on the "Trump train" once he started repeating the claim that the father of "Lying Ted Cruz," was implicated in the JFK assassination - leading one to conclude that many his supporters are actually well aware that this President's assertions are patently false, but for whatever reasons, they just don't care!

That being said, many are still willing to place their lives and those of their families at risk just for the privilege of attending one of Trump's ra!ies - psychologists, psychiatrists, sociologists, polutical scientists and other social scientists will be gainfully ewmployed for decades trying to explain these bizarre behaviors associated with the "Trump Syndrome!"

This has actually been a good election for the Republican party. In fact this was my ideal result. Trump out, but a republican senate. There is an end to the lies and partisan put downs that have polarised America, and alienated allies, but the Democrats cannot do any real damage. Hopefully the parties will now start to work together, for the good of the USA.

helmut · Nov 5, 2020

mindlight said:
Presumably the CDU appealed to the Bundestag and was outvoted by members of the SPD-FDP coalition.

No, the federal institutions have not the right to interfere with the constitution of a Bundesland. The right path were to go the courts. But I am no juridical expert and don't know all details, so I cannot tell precisely how it ended. I only remember the news of the demand the election should be repeated, it was in the radio news - and when Abrecht became prime minister in 1976 I remembered it.

helmut · Nov 5, 2020

NerdGirl123 said:
It does make one wonder.
View attachment 287957

Well, there were no ballots "found", there were counties reporting in how many ballots there were.

Compare Ohio: They first counted absentee mail-in ballots, the state looked blue, but later, with ground ballots, it turned red. In states which counted in the reverse order, it was just the other way round.

Did the Republicans cheat in Ohio, so this state must be counted for Biden?

EDIT: I didn't perceive it might be on ballots arriving late until I read post #12 ...

helmut · Nov 5, 2020

mindlight said:
This has actually been a good election for the Republican party. In fact this was my ideal result. Trump out but a republican senate. There is an end to the lies and partisan put downs that have polarised America and alienated allies but the Democrats cannot do any real damage. Hopefully the parties will now start to work together for the good of the USA.

I'm not sure. Trump has shifted the republicans to the right. more than 40% for a person that has no scruples to call Nazis as good fellows, and tells lies over lies about centrist being leftists (and even communists), lied about the economy, climate change and other themes, 40% for such a person shows he has succeeded to influence the minds of many people and so deeply influenced the general opinion. Comparable (not in size of effect, but in principle) to Bush who convinced many US people that there was a connection between Saddam Hussein and the "9-11"-event.

Much of Trump's agenda will survive him, and the odds are not low that a person with less narcissism but more fanaticism for an ideology may win the 2024 election. Somewhat like Trump, but a bit more like Hitler.

Let's pray the development will be otherwise. Polarization has started well before Trump, you can't expect it will vanish in just two or three years.

apogee · Nov 5, 2020

NerdGirl123 said:
It does make one wonder.
View attachment 287957

The only things this makes me wonder is...who the heck is Nick Adams? and why the heck should I care about his tweets?

apogee · Nov 5, 2020

apogee said:
The only things this makes me wonder is...who the heck is Nick Adams? and why the heck should I care about his tweets?

It's ok, thanks to google I can now answer my own question.

a) He's an Australian chancer and failed motivational speaker, who by sheer chutzpah has managed to carve out a career as a 'politcal pundit' on Fox News.

b) there is literally no reason I should give a darn about anything he says, about anything, ever, especially if it relates to pigeons, pest control, or the potential spread of avian flu.

helmut · Nov 5, 2020

apogee said:
a) He's an Australian chancer and failed motivational speaker, who by sheer chutzpah has managed to carve out a career as a 'politcal pundit' on Fox News.

Given the agenda of Fox News, I suspect is has not been chutzpah, but simply him being the man best qualified (especially in character) for a Fox "pundit".

Election fraud (attempt) seen in action

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