Are you saved because you believe? Or do you believe because you are saved?

Dave L said:

I'm glad for the experience. God brought me out in a miraculous way and gave me a new direction in line with historic Christianity.

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Calvinism is not in line with historic Christianity. It has been rejected by every single church established by the apostles and only dates back less than 500 years. Not to mention it was refuted by Iranaeus over 300 years before it began in 170AD.

Dave L said:

I take it you never read Calvin?

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Bits & pieces. I can’t see the point in a full blown study of his work when there are so many holes in his doctrines.

Minister Monardo said:

Before you can define Christ, you after to know who Jesus is, the only begotten Son of God.
Christ is the seed of Abraham, the fulfillment of God's promise and oath to him.
The Son of God was the Son of God before the foundation of the world. Before He took on flesh.
Before He took on the seed of Abraham.

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agreed and looking back upon all Scripture which Peter did not have since the N.T. was not written we now know the following that the disciples did not understand until Jesus had opened their minds and hearts to understand after His Resurrection concerning everything written about Him in the scriptures- in the Law, Psalms, Prophets.

Luke 24:25-27
25 And He said to them, "O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 " Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?" 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

Luke 24:44-45
44Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,


Jesus said the Holy Spirit will bear witness of HIM

John 15:26
“When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. 27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.

John 16:13-14
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.

Jesus identity as God(YHWH) below in the N.T. And there are several passage I'm leaving out where it is YHWH in the OT passage quoted in the N.T. and applied to Christ identifying Him as YHWH. One example is Romans 10:13; Joel 2:32- calling on the name of YHWH (LORD) to be saved.

John 8:24
I told you that you would die in your sins. Yes, if you don't believe that I AM(YHWH), you will die in your sins."

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am.(YHWH)"

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 20:28
Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

Romans 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ who is God over all forever praised! Amen.

Titus 2:13
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Hebrews 1:8
But of the Son He says,
"YOUR THRONE O GOD IS FOREVER AND EVER

Hebrews 1:10
He also says,
"In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.

2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours

1 John 5:20
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true even in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.


These passages in Revelation make it clear that Jesus is God. Remember it is Jesus in the NT who is Coming back to earth that every eye will see. It was Jesus who was pierced on the cross for our sins. John is clearly once again calling Jesus God/ YHWH.The Coming and the coming in the clouds refers to Jesus.

Isaiah 48:12
"Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.


Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

We know from Revelation 1:8 that Alpha and Omega is the Almighty. So we can see that Christ is the Almighty

Revelation 1:17
17And when I saw Him, I fell at his feet as dead. And He laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I Am the first and the last:

We know from Revelation 1:17-18 that the first and the last is He that liveth, was dead, but is alive forevermore is Christ.

Revelation 22:12-13
12 "Behold, I Am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

We know from Revelation 22:13 that the first and the last is the Alpha and Omega.

Revelation 22:16,20
16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I Am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

So we now have an advantage in that we can examine both Testaments and see what the OT prophets wrote, what Jesus said and taught and what the Apostles had written about Jesus identity after Pentecost when they wrote scripture a few years later. They understood as Jesus had promised once they received the Holy Spirit that He would bring those things to their remembrance and would understand them at that time.

hope this helps !!!

If God chooses to save without the other person’s involvement, then why did Jesus only heal when the recipient (or their loved ones) acted in faith?

Every time Jesus healed, faith was involved; and in many cases Jesus commended their faith. Concerning healing, he emphasized “your faith has made you whole” as much as “believe me for the works themselves” and “I am come to do the work of my Father”. Even with the the crippled man at the pool of Bethesda (who was passive), Jesus had to draw out faith by asking him the obvious question of “Do you want to be made well?”.

On the flip side we see at Nazareth in Matthew 13:58 that Jesus “did not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief”. When Jesus resurrected the Synagogue leader's daughter in Mark 5, he had to put the crowd of mocking mourners outside so that he was only accompanied by his 3 principal disciples and the Synagogue Leader when he ministered to the girl.

BNR32FAN said:

Bits & pieces. I can’t see the point in a full blown study of his work when there are so many holes in his doctrines.

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what do you thing about evangelical arminians ?

John Mullally said:

If God chooses to save without the other person’s involvement, then why did Jesus only heal when the recipient (or their loved ones) acted in faith?

Every time Jesus healed, faith was involved; and in many cases Jesus commended their faith. He emphasized “your faith has made you whole”, “believe me for the works themselves”, and “I am come to do the work of my Father”. Even with the the crippled man at the pool of Bethesda (who was passive), Jesus had to draw out faith by asking him the obvious question of “Do you want to be made well?”.

On the flip side we see at Nazareth in Matthew 13:58 that Jesus “did not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief”. When Jesus resurrected the Synagogue leader's daughter in Mark 5, he had to put the crowd of mocking mourners outside so that he was only accompanied by his 3 principal disciples and the Synagogue Leader when he ministered to the girl.

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Matthew 13:57-58
But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town and in his own home.”58 And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.

Mark 6:5
And because of their unbelief, he couldn’t do any miracles among them except to place his hands on a few sick people and heal them.nlt

hope this helps !!!

Jesus is YHWH said:

what do you thing about evangelical arminians ?

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I think they’re a lot closer to being Orthodox than Calvinism and I like that their theology doesn’t paint God in such an unfavorable way.

BNR32FAN said:

I think they’re a lot closer to being Orthodox than Calvinism and I like that their theology doesn’t paint God in such an unfavorable way.

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Well here is what their founder James Arminius said of Calvin below:

“Next to the study of the Scriptures which I earnestly inculcate, I exhort my pupils to peruse Calvin's Commentaries, which I extol in loftier terms than Helmich himself (a Dutch divine, 1551-1608]; for I affirm that he excels beyond comparison (incomparabilem esse) in the interpretation of Scripture, and that his commentaries ought to be more highly valued than all that is handed down to us by the library of the fathers; so that I acknowledge him to have possessed above most others, or rather above all other men, what may be called an eminent spirit of prophecy (spiritum aliquem prophetiae eximium). His Institutes ought to be studied after the [Heidelberg] Catechism, as containing a fuller explanation, but with discrimination ( cum delectu), like the writings of all men."

hope this helps !!!

Dave L said:

God can only give the benefits of salvation to those whose sins Christ paid for on the cross. Faith told Jesus he paid for their sins or they would not have it. So this is why he paid so much attention to faith.

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1 John 2:2 says Christ paid for the sins of all mankind. And his disciples were instructed to preach the Gospel (this good news) to the whole world.


There are no weasel words in New Testament where it is preached that salvation is available to some. So why do Calvanists insist on using them?

Jesus is YHWH said:

If Hagin, Hinn or Copeland had been alive at the time, Paul would have said, "you are not one of us."

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Paul would have said, anyone who teaches you do not need to run the race until the end, is not one of us.

1an said:

Paul would have said, anyone who teaches you do not need to run the race until the end, is not one of us.

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Your sentence structure makes absolutely no sense.

Jesus is YHWH said:

Your sentence structure makes absolutely no sense.

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Feeble excuse. You know perfectly well what is meant.

Paul will get his crown of gold because he continued to the end. I dread to think what Calvenists will get.

1an said:

Feeble excuse. You know perfectly well what is meant.
.

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If you rewrite it maybe there is a chance I will understand what you mean. if you are unwilling, then oh well ...................................

I do not have time for your games.

Jesus is YHWH said:

If you rewrite it maybe there is a chance I will understand what you mean. if you are unwilling, then oh well ...................................

I do not have time for your games.

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Then you need to stop playing ring-a-ring-of-roses with God, because you will all end up falling down.
.

BNR32FAN said:

Bits & pieces. I can’t see the point in a full blown study of his work when there are so many holes in his doctrines.

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I can only find two but they are pretty good sized.