Question to Polytheists/Neopagans: Which gods exist?

amci · Nov 2, 2020

I'm curious about how polytheists and neopagans determine which gods exist. Additionally, which historically identified gods from different cultures are the same entity worshiped under different names?

To clarify with an example, for those who adhere to the Hellenic pantheon, do all the gods of the classical Greek myths exist? Are those that exist the same entities as similar gods of other cultures (e.g., Zeus = Jupiter = Ahura Mazda, etc.)? How is this determined?

What does it mean for gods to exist?

awitch · Nov 2, 2020

amci said:
I'm curious about how polytheists and neopagans determine which gods exist. Additionally, which historically identified gods from different cultures are the same entity worshiped under different names?

Your answers are going to vary depending on who you ask but I'll give you my two cents.

So when I jumped in, I looked at the Greek pantheon first after designing the rituals and setting expectations. The answer I felt I got was, "Thanks, but no thanks". Next I looked at the Egyptian pantheon because they are so interesting, but there wasn't much there I could identify with. So then I tried the Celtic pantheon and that seemed to click. I've been with them since. Do other gods exist? My attitiude is "Sure, why not? I don't know. Who cares?"

I guess I'm what they call a hard polytheist- each god, even for different cultures, is a unique entity. There's no test or heuristics to measure the factual-ness. There's no empirical evidence to demonstrate any of them exist in reality.

amci · Nov 2, 2020

awitch said:
Your answers are going to vary depending on who you ask but I'll give you my two cents.

So when I jumped in, I looked at the Greek pantheon first after designing the rituals and setting expectations. The answer I felt I got was, "Thanks, but no thanks". Next I looked at the Egyptian pantheon because they are so interesting, but there wasn't much there I could identify with. So then I tried the Celtic pantheon and that seemed to click. I've been with them since. Do other gods exist? My attitiude is "Sure, why not? I don't know. Who cares?"

I guess I'm what they call a hard polytheist- each god, even for different cultures, is a unique entity. There's no test or heuristics to measure the factual-ness. There's no empirical evidence to demonstrate any of them exist in reality.

That's helpful, thank you.

What do you make of the cross-culturally interpretation of gods? If someone said that they thought that Lugh, Mercury, Hermes, and Thoth were all the same entity and worshiped him as such, would your private opinion be that this person is actually worshiping 4 different entities without knowing it or would that person's Lugh not be the same entity as your Lugh?

From what I gather, this idea isn't a priority to most neopagans, so this might not even be a question that comes up.

awitch · Nov 2, 2020

amci said:
That's helpful, thank you.

What do you make of the cross-culturally interpretation of gods? If someone said that they thought that Lugh, Mercury, Hermes, and Thoth were all the same entity and worshiped him as such, would your private opinion be that this person is actually worshiping 4 different entities without knowing it or would that person's Lugh not be the same entity as your Lugh?

From what I gather, this idea isn't a priority to most neopagans, so this might not even be a question that comes up.

I suspect it's not an uncommon conversation but it's probably limited to a philosophical importance. If I were to address them, I would treat them as distinct. If other Neopagans did not, I wouldn't be justified to say they were wrong. If the same deity goes by multiple names, I'm sure they would get the gist either way.

Zoness · Nov 2, 2020

amci said:
I'm curious about how polytheists and neopagans determine which gods exist. Additionally, which historically identified gods from different cultures are the same entity worshiped under different names?

To clarify with an example, for those who adhere to the Hellenic pantheon, do all the gods of the classical Greek myths exist? Are those that exist the same entities as similar gods of other cultures (e.g., Zeus = Jupiter = Ahura Mazda, etc.)? How is this determined?

What does it mean for gods to exist?

The standard devotional polytheist answer is that all gods exist and that to exist is be a self-sufficient agent with will.

Generally in ancient cultures they were seen as separate gods but were sometimes syncretized together. The Greek/Roman fusions are the obvious ones but the lines get blurrier too with Romano-Gaulish, Romano-British, Egyptian-Hellenic, Bactrian-Hellenic and many many other fusions of gods. These entities may have been sometimes equated but that would vary based on locality, they weren't usually reduced to a handful of divinities. By this logic it stands to reason that there may be millions of undiscovered gods and new gods, depending on how you define divinity. If you take the Heptadic Greco-Scythian pantheon and integrated it with something like Tengri or local steppe animism, it standards to reason that there may be as many gods at least as there are land features in the world.

In neopaganism, especially Wicca; all divinities often reduced to facets of one or two greater divinities usually represented by the Horned God and Mother [triple] Goddess. In this view, its more common to see say, Hecate or Artemis as facets of the great mother or Cernunnos and Hermes as facets of the horned god. This is not the historical view but its fairly common. This the view you also commonly see as described in OP.

A third group exists more common in neopagan faiths (rather than devotional polytheism) that sees the gods as archetypical manifestations of unconscious will. Think for example of Neil Gaiman's American Gods wherein divinity has power insofar as it has worshipers and devotees. This group is also very numerous among pagan groups and often times this and the second group duke it out with the first group, in my experience.

Zoness · Nov 2, 2020

Interesting and relevant reading on the topic! Interpretatio graeca - Wikipedia

amci · Nov 3, 2020

Zoness said:
The standard devotional polytheist answer is that all gods exist and that to exist is be a self-sufficient agent with will.

Generally in ancient cultures they were seen as separate gods but were sometimes syncretized together. The Greek/Roman fusions are the obvious ones but the lines get blurrier too with Romano-Gaulish, Romano-British, Egyptian-Hellenic, Bactrian-Hellenic and many many other fusions of gods. These entities may have been sometimes equated but that would vary based on locality, they weren't usually reduced to a handful of divinities. By this logic it stands to reason that there may be millions of undiscovered gods and new gods, depending on how you define divinity. If you take the Heptadic Greco-Scythian pantheon and integrated it with something like Tengri or local steppe animism, it standards to reason that there may be as many gods at least as there are land features in the world.

In neopaganism, especially Wicca; all divinities often reduced to facets of one or two greater divinities usually represented by the Horned God and Mother [triple] Goddess. In this view, its more common to see say, Hecate or Artemis as facets of the great mother or Cernunnos and Hermes as facets of the horned god. This is not the historical view but its fairly common. This the view you also commonly see as described in OP.

A third group exists more common in neopagan faiths (rather than devotional polytheism) that sees the gods as archetypical manifestations of unconscious will. Think for example of Neil Gaiman's American Gods wherein divinity has power insofar as it has worshipers and devotees. This group is also very numerous among pagan groups and often times this and the second group duke it out with the first group, in my experience.

Very helpful summary of the various camps regarding this issue. Thank you.

AV1611VET · Nov 3, 2020

Has the thread title been answered?

dlamberth · Nov 3, 2020

AV1611VET said:
Has the thread title been answered?

I hope there's more. This thread is an interesting read.

awitch · Nov 3, 2020

AV1611VET said:
Has the thread title been answered?

Short version is: it depends on who you ask but the implications either way are not particularly critical.

AV1611VET · Nov 3, 2020

dlamberth said:
I hope there's more. This thread is an interesting read.

I have a feeling neopagans don't know.

So this thread is going to be a Heinz-57 equivalence of he says / she says.

Instead of answering with names, look what we're getting: "Greek/Roman fusions," "divinities reduced to ..."

It's sad.

AV1611VET · Nov 3, 2020

awitch said:
Short version is: it depends on who you ask but the implications either way are not particularly critical.

That's obvious.

dlamberth · Nov 3, 2020

AV1611VET said:
Instead of answering with names, look what we're getting: "Greek/Roman fusions," "divinities reduced to ..."

Interesting, that's pretty much how I view the Christian image of God. Which makes sense to me as the Greek/Roman Pagan Gods were the thing back in the day. And religions have a way of adsorbing ideas that other religions have.

AV1611VET · Nov 3, 2020

dlamberth said:
Interesting, that's pretty much how I view the Christian image of God.

You have no choice though.

In pantheism, everything is part of God.

So God could have the name G.I. Joe, as well as Heinz-57 catsup.

awitch · Nov 3, 2020

AV1611VET said:
I have a feeling neopagans don't know.

Of course we don't know. We believe. That's how faith works.

So this thread is going to be a Heinz-57 equivalence of he says / she says.

There are 30,000 different Christian denominations in the world today.
Christians give different answers for any given question all the time right here on CF and of course, each one claims a monopoly on the truth.

Instead of answering with names, look what we're getting: "Greek/Roman fusions," "divinities reduced to ..."

Let's ask if Jesus is a trinity or not and see how many different answers we get.

AV1611VET · Nov 3, 2020

awitch said:
There are 30,000 different Christian denominations in the world today.

Check their creeds and see if their God is the same in all of them.

For someone to say, "I believe in the gods of the Pantheon" would be like a Christian saying, "I believe in the God of the Nicene/Apostles'/Athanasian Creed."

If I was talking to a neopagan in person, and he told me he believed in the gods of the Pantheon, or Greek/Whatever, or this and that Egyptian list," I would challenge him to name them without looking them up.

It's too weak of a statement for someone asking who runs your show.

ETA: And don't get me wrong. I've challenged Christians here to tell me God's name.

AV1611VET · Nov 3, 2020

awitch said:
Let's ask if Jesus is a trinity or not and see how many different answers we get.

Let's do that.

Even for those who don't believe He is a trinity, I'll bet they can name them as separate Gods: JEHOVAH, Jesus, and Holy Spirit.

They may not believe in them as three-in-one; but they can most certainly answer the title of this thread from their perspective.

Neopagans, in my opinion, can't.

They can't even tell you how many there are; let alone name them by name.

awitch · Nov 3, 2020

AV1611VET said:
It's too weak of a statement for someone asking who runs your show.

They don't run the show. They are not omniscient/omnipotent.

AV1611VET · Nov 3, 2020

awitch said:
They don't run the show. They are not omniscient/omnipotent.

They who specifically?

awitch · Nov 3, 2020

AV1611VET said:
They who specifically?

All of the above.
(no pun intended)

Question to Polytheists/Neopagans: Which gods exist?

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