Are you saved because you believe? Or do you believe because you are saved?

Spiritual Jew said:

Wow. Really strong argument there. I assume that you must be a lawyer since you have such strong rebuttal skills?

Where is your evidence that people like Judas were the primary audience being addressed in the book of Hebrews? Was Judas ever among the "holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling"? If you think so, then provide some evidence for that. To me, that is a description of true believers who are saved, not someone like Judas.

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What do you mean by "primary audience being addressed"? Those being spoken about are NOT those being spoken to! The author says as much!

By definition, btw, to whatever degree anyone "enters in" to the fruits and gifts of the Spirit, if one is Elect, they will be saved; but if they are not, they will not be. If one is regenerated, they are Elect, because God will complete what he has begun.

Jesus is YHWH said:

ad hominem duly noted. I will not stoop to your level.

judas experienced all the things described in Hebrews 6:4-8.

judas is an example of those in Hebrews 6:4-8 and in Hebrews 6:9 the author makes the distinction between those who are saved and the things which(accompany salvation) and those who do not in 4-8.

hope this helps !!!

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It didn't help at all because you didn't provide the evidence I asked for. If you can provide it and it's convincing then I will accept it because I only care about the truth.

Mark Quayle said:

What do you mean by "primary audience being addressed"? Those being spoken about are NOT those being spoken to! The author says as much!

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What are you talking about? Is he not talking to the same "holy brothers and sisters who share in the heavenly calling" that he references in Hebrews 3:1 as he is talking to here:

Hebrews 3:12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

Mark Quayle said:

If you mean by your post to show that I was in error that Calvinism teaches that man is unable to repent because man is unwilling to repent, because Wiki says it teaches that as a consequence of man's fall that they are unable, you are mistaken.

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That is how Total Depravity is defined. That is not a claim that I have made. I cannot be mistaken as far as Total Depravity is concerned, because I don't hold to any position on this subject.

Calvinism shows that man is born a slave to sin, but that their will is continually set against God, until God regenerates them.

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All five points of Calvinism must be valid, if Calvinism is true.

1) Total Depravity
2) Unconditional Election
3) Limited Atonement
4) Irresistible Grace
5) Perseverance Of The Saints

Mark Quayle said:

By the way, no I am not saying Total Depravity is not total --where did you get that from? I don't think you are that ignorant of Calvinism to think it means every person is as bad as possible, but that sin has enslaved their will.

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As to moving the goal posts - I am staying dialed in. It is hard to defend "P" without compromising "T" and visa versa.

I argue that the false teachers (2 Peter 2:20) who had at one time "escaped the pollutions of this world" were not enslaved to sin at that time - especially when it comes through the "knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ".

How can one who has "escaped the pollutions of this world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" be Total Depraved? I look online for "Calvanist Total Depravity" definition and sadly I did not find anything concise.

Jesus is YHWH said:

typical pelagian response.

judas is an example he was never saved.

next.................

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Only to those who don’t know what exactly the Church refuted about his theology. Pelagian taught that man could be saved without God’s grace and could achieve sinless perfection. That’s what they rejected it

Jesus is YHWH said:

not if he believes in a free will that can choose God apart from God enabling a person.

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Enabling is one thing, but causing someone to do something with no possibility of them choosing to do anything else is another thing altogether.

Jesus said He would draw all people to Himself (John 12:32), so I believe He enables all people to understand what sin is and what He expects from them and to make a choice to humble themselves and give their lives to Him or to reject Him.

Were the religious Jewish leaders that Stephen preached to incapable of repenting and putting their faith in Christ? If so, why was the Holy Spirit speaking to them?

Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

How could they resist the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit was not trying to convince them to change their minds about Christ? The Calvinist view says that the Holy Spirit has no interest in persuading unbelievers and only cares about persuading (causing) the elect to believe, so the idea of anyone resisting the Holy Spirit is not possible in Calvinism.

Spiritual Jew said:

Why didn't he baptize all of them if it was necessary for salvation? Why did he say he didn't come to baptize but did come to preach the gospel if water baptism is part of the gospel? Clearly, it's not or else he wouldn't have said that.

You're fighting a losing battle. You believe that people can earn their salvation with their works. Scripture clearly says salvation is through faith, but not by works (Eph 2:8-9) or else you can boast about your own salvation.

A humble heart of repentance and faith is required, but physical acts are not required for salvation. What is required is something that all people are capable of doing if they choose to do so. Your requirements for salvation are not even possible for some people. Such as anyone like the thief on the cross who die before they get water baptized. Or if someone was paralyzed or incapacitated in some way and not able to go under the water.

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Preaching Christ includes baptism in water for the remission of sins according to (Acts 2;38,47 ; 8:5,12,13,26-40 ; 16:30-34 ; 22:16) (Mark 16:15,16) (1Peter 3:20,21) (Jn 3:3-5,23).

WHY?

Bel + Bapt = Saved

Holy Spirit baptisms only recorded examples are of GROUPS of people (not individuals).(Ac 2 / 10)

Beyond those two examples the apostles laid their hands upon people for them to be able to do miracles (Acts 6:6 ; 8:18,19 ; 19:1-6). Once the apostles died no one else could pass the gifts to others.


I will ask again, must one confess Jesus as the Son of God to be saved?

If so, then faith alone salvation is false.

Ro 10:9 That #1. if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and #2. shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Mark Quayle said:

Who said --who even hinted at, "all they have to do is change their mind and repent"? Of course they are NOT capable of changing their mind and repenting! Only God can change their mind, making them willing to repent. Only God can make anyone's repentance "real".

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Show me the scripture which teaches that God forces people to repent/change their minds.

Spiritual Jew said:

Jesus said He would draw all people to Himself (John 12:32),

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Beautiful. If Jesus is drawing all people unto Himself, that means the invitation is going out everywhere and he is not blocking the Gospel - its preach the Gospel to all nations. This is supported in the "Parable of the Wedding Banquet". Per the Wedding Banquet parable only those who of their free will accepted the invitation and did not make excuses attended. And lets not forget 1 John 2:2.

Jesus is YHWH said:

No it demonstrates Jesus words below:

John 6:65
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

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Why do you act as if the Father enables people to come to Jesus arbitrarily? Where does scripture teach that?

Let's take Cornelius as an example. He had faith in God but did not yet know about Jesus until Peter came to preach to him. The Father enabled Cornelius to come to Jesus because He knew Cornelius would be open to it due to already having faith in God before that.

As Jesus said in John 6:44, "Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.".

Cornelius fit that description. Nowhere did Jesus say that the Father enables people arbitrarily rather than doing it based on His understanding of who will accept the gospel and who won't.

You drew conclusions from that isolated verse without looking at the surrounding verses to see the context.

John 6:64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

The Father already knew who believed and who didn't. God enabled those who He knew would believe in Jesus. It does not say He made them believe. It was not arbitrary as Calvinism teaches.

In your view, the Father forces some to believe in Jesus and does not care about everyone else. If that was the case then what is the reason for the day of judgment? For what reason exactly will God punish people for eternity despite them (supposedly) having no ability to do what God requires people to do to be saved (believe in Jesus)? That makes no sense. Is that something a God of love would do? I don't believe so.

Mark Quayle said:

You are merely restating the same thesis. You are not showing the logical link between man's lost condition and freewill. The Scriptures do not demonstrate any need for freewill. While they do demonstrate the fact of man's CHOICE, they don't demonstrate choice as the determining factor (i.e. the cause, to any degree) for Salvation. They do show a man's choice as evidence for Salvation, but not a cause for Salvation.

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This is one of the most nonsensical things I've ever seen anyone say. How can something truly be a "choice" without free will? Are you kidding?

Jesus is YHWH said:

You are making my point for me lol. Their free will decision is why they no longer followed Him for they were never drawn to Christ by the Father, hence they fell away.

1 John 2:!9
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

the more you comment and ask questions the deeper the hole you dig yourself into Ian.

hope this helps !!!

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Jesus said He would draw all people to Himself, so why are you contradicting that by saying they were never drawn to Him? They were, but they chose not to commit themselves fully to Him. Because of that, God did not enable them to come to Christ. Everyone has to make that choice.

Mark Quayle said:

Remember also, what it says in John 3:18, that one is already condemned who does not believe.

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No one is born a believer so John 3:18 applies to everyone. All are condemned because of they do not believe until the choose to believe which is why it says “whosever believes in Him will never perish but have eaten life” in verse 16. Calvin’s theology teaches that whosever has eternal life will believe. Calvin has it backwards.

Mark Quayle said:

And....around and around we go.....

You can call it "forced" if you like. But that sounds (at least to me) like a vehement clinging to the right of self-determination, not a humble gratefulness to our loving, magnificent and merciful God for our undeserved salvation.

Why don't you call it "forced" that you were born at all? Why not "forced" that everyone is born a slave to sin?

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You do believe that God causes people to believe through no choice of their own. What word should we use for that?

Jesus is YHWH said:

that is your teaching not mine. man has no free will since they are slaves to sin, dead in sin and sin is their master. so much for freedom eh ?

mans is only free to sin and cannot do good as there is none who does good no not one.

hope this helps !!!

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If you would actually read ALL of Romans 3 you should learn that the idea of man not being able to do what is good or what is right is true of man who is not aware of God's law. But those who learn of God's moral law become aware of their sinful condition.

Romans 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Once someone becomes conscious of sin and God's displeasure with their sin then they have a choice to make of how to respond. Continue in their sin or change their minds, humble themselves and acknowledge that they can't save themselves and need God's mercy and forgiveness.

Jesus is YHWH said:

slaves are not free and whom the SON SETS FREE is free indeed !

Believe Jesus not your man made doctrine.

John 8:34-36
Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

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How do you know for sure that you've been set free? You may be fooling yourself for all you know since it's not up to you at all.

Why do you suppose that God chose you to be saved and not your neighbor (let's just assume they're not chosen for the sake of argument)?

Why will God punish your neighbor for eternity? For not believing in Him? Why would He do that if your neighbor had no ability to believe in Christ?

Why did John say that Jesus sacrificed Himself for "the whole world" (1 John 2:1-2) if He actually only sacrificed Himself for some of the world?

Why did Paul and Peter say that God wants all people to repent (Acts 17:30-31, 2 Peter 3:9) if God actually only causes some to repent while the rest don't even have the ability to repent?

Nova2216 said:

Preaching Christ includes baptism in water for the remission of sins according to (Acts 2;38,47 ; 8:5,12,13,26-40 ; 16:30-34 ; 22:16) (Mark 16:15,16) (1Peter 3:20,21) (Jn 3:3-5,23).

WHY?

Bel + Bapt = Saved

Holy Spirit baptisms only recorded examples are of GROUPS of people (not individuals).(Ac 2 / 10)

Beyond those two examples the apostles laid their hands upon people for them to be able to do miracles (Acts 6:6 ; 8:18,19 ; 19:1-6). Once the apostles died no one else could pass the gifts to others.


I will ask again, must one confess Jesus as the Son of God to be saved?

If so, then faith alone salvation is false.

Ro 10:9 That #1. if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and #2. shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

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Why didn't you address what I said directly? Why did Paul say he didn't come to baptize but to preach the gospel if water baptism is part of the preaching of the gospel? Are you willing to answer that honestly?

Was the thief on the cross saved? What about anyone today who dies before they are able to get water baptized?

Dave L said:

Jesus said; “Those who believe in the Son have eternal life, but those who do not obey the Son will never have life. God’s anger stays on them.” John 3:36 (NCV)

Eternal life is without beginning or end, just as God is eternal. This would mean whom he regenerates with his Spirit was saved eternally in God's mind and plan.

“And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?” John 11:26 (KJV 1900)

So is believing in Christ God's fruit of salvation that tells you he saved you? Or is it a law you must obey in the flesh to earn salvation?

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Revelation 12:
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word[logos] of their testimony,
and they did not love their lives to the death.

1 Peter 3:
15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone
who asks you a reason [logos] for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear.

Luke 1:77. To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins.

knowledge of salvation=experience. Experienced what?
the remission of their sins. What is remission? Ask a cancer survivor.
The remission of sin is the experience of deliverance from the power of sin in your life.
If you fall back into your carnal nature, you will sin, and need to confess to your
beloved brethren in Christ, as per 1 John 1.
When you abide in the Holy Spirit, you not only will not, but you cannot sin, because his
seed abides in you, as per 1 John 3.
If we say that we have no sin...?
When you offer your testimony as to how the Lord has delivered you from the power of sin and death,
how you no longer walk in the ways of a corrupt world, you are overcoming by the power of that word.

Salvation is not theology or dogmatic belief, it is the power of an everlasting life. The same Spirit
that raised Christ from the grave is working in you to will and to do of His Good Pleasure.

Spiritual Jew said:

Wow. Really strong argument there. I assume that you must be a lawyer since you have such strong rebuttal skills?

Where is your evidence that people like Judas were the primary audience being addressed in the book of Hebrews? Was Judas ever among the "holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling"? If you think so, then provide some evidence for that. To me, that is a description of true believers who are saved, not someone like Judas.

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John 6:64 specifically states that Judas did not believe not to mention that he was stealing from the treasury while he was following Christ.