Can Christians live a holy life?

Danthemailman · Nov 2, 2020

chad kincham said:
He is right, and you are very wrong.

Actually, you are both very wrong.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of Ephesians 2:8-9,

Let me guess, you teach that we are saved by "these" works (works of obedience/good works etc..) and just not "those" works (specific works of the law). I hear works-salvationists use that bogus argument quite a bit.

Whenever Paul wrote about works, he is ALWAYS talking about works of the law of Moses, which is a specific OT body of law, with 613 statutes, and commands.

When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect works of obedience/good works etc.. from the law. In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "works of obedience/good work," yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18)

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Now please tell me, which works of obedience/good works could a Christian perform which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works that we do as Christians which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself?

In Titus 3:5, Paul said that it's not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. and likewise, in 2 Timothy 1:9, Paul said that God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.. So it's not merely specific works of the law of Moses, but works in general.

We are saved by grace THROUGH faith, it’s a gift of God, not of works of the law of Moses.

Paul said "not of works" and you "added" not of works "of the law of Moses" to Ephesians 2:9.

We aren’t saved by animal sacrifices, keeping feast days, sabbaths, etc, nor any of the other 613 rules.

We are not saved by works in general.

James on the other hand, is not talking about works of the law of Moses, but works of obedience and charity.

Again, when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect works of obedience and charity from the law of Moses. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40)

That’s why a seeming contradiction between Paul and James, isn’t one at all.

Of course there is no contradiction between Paul and James. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-26).
Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified based on Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony*

To whit:

Paul wrote that Abraham was justified apart from works.

When Paul uses the word "justified," he is talking about the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James, on the other is using the word "justified" to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." That is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

There’s no contradiction, they are talking about different kinds of works.

Of course there is no contradiction and it's not because they are talking about two different kinds of works, but because Paul and James are using the term "justified" in two different senses:

Paul - "accounted as righteous."
James - "shown to be righteous."

There are requirements and conditions for Christians after salvation, which have nothing to do with works of the law of Moses, but Ephesians 2:8-9 is cited whenever those conditions are brought up, to try and prove there’s nothing required of us after salvation.

This sugar coated double talk amounts to "type 2 works salvation."

Bible Highlighter · Nov 2, 2020

Danthemailman said:
Actually, you are both very wrong.

Let me guess, you teach that we are saved by "these" works (works of obedience/good works etc..) and just not "those" works (specific works of the law). I hear works-salvationists use that bogus argument quite a bit.

When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect works of obedience/good works etc.. from the law. In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "works of obedience/good work," yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18)

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Now please tell me, which works of obedience/good works could a Christian perform which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works that we do as Christians which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself?

In Titus 3:5, Paul said that it's not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. and likewise, in 2 Timothy 1:9, Paul said that God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.. So it's not merely specific works of the law of Moses, but works in general.

Paul said "not of works" and you "added" not of works "of the law of Moses" to Ephesians 2:9.

We are not saved by works in general.

Again, when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect works of obedience and charity from the law of Moses. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40)

Of course there is no contradiction between Paul and James. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-26).
Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified based on Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony*

When Paul uses the word "justified," he is talking about the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James, on the other is using the word "justified" to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.

For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

Faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." That is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

Of course there is no contradiction and it's not because they are talking about two different kinds of works, but because Paul and James are using the term "justified" in two different senses:

Paul - "accounted as righteous."
James - "shown to be righteous."

This sugar coated double talk amounts to "type 2 works salvation."

Yes, the New Covenant has laws that have repeated from the Old Covenant, but that does not make it an Old Covenant Law still. We are now New Covenant believers and the commands we follow are under the New Covenant or New Testament (regardless if they have been repeated or carried over from the Old Covenant or not). The Old Law as a whole or package deal is no more. For the Law came by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. Even believing in Jesus is a commandment (1 John 3:23). So unless you reject 1 John 3:23, you must believe you are saved by keeping this commandment (Which is a law). You are saved by keeping this law. Jesus even said to believe on Him is a work (John 6:29). So unless you reject John 6:29, you must believe you are saved by doing some form of work.

Jesus agreed with the lawyer to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28). Paul does not condemn our obedience to the two greatest commandments as a part of eternal life. If Paul did that, he would have condemned himself (See: 1 Timothy 6:3-4). Paul also said if any man loves not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed (1 Corinthians 16:22). The way Jesus wanted us to love was by keeping His commandments (John 14:15).

Danthemailman · Nov 2, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Yes, the New Covenant has laws that have repeated from the Old Covenant, but that does not make it an Old Covenant Law still. We are now New Covenant believers and the commands we follow are under the New Covenant or New Testament (regardless if they have been repeated or carried over from the Old Covenant or not). The Old Law as a whole or package deal is no more. For the Law came by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. Even believing in Jesus is a commandment (1 John 3:23). So unless you reject 1 John 3:23, you must believe you are saved by keeping this commandment (Which is a law). You are saved by keeping this law. Jesus even said to believe on Him is a work (John 6:29). So unless you reject John 6:29, you must believe you are saved by doing some form of work.

I don't reject 1 John 3:23 or John 6:29 and believing on Him is not just "another work" in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works. Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. So much for salvation by works. Also notice the "distinction" between faith "not" works in Ephesians 2:8,9. *Nowhere does the Bible teach salvation by faith and works.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 2, 2020

Danthemailman said:
I don't reject 1 John 3:23 or John 6:29 and believing on Him is not just "another work" in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works. Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. So much for salvation by works. Also notice the "distinction" between faith "not" works in Ephesians 2:8,9. *Nowhere does the Bible teach salvation by faith and works.

The point here is that you want works in Ephesians 2:8-9 to be in reference to all kinds of works. But then you have to reject John 6:29 in order to make this so. So you have to obviously accept John 6:29. This proves that Paul is not referring to all forms of works in Ephesians 2:8-9. Therein lies the contradiction in your own belief system.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 2, 2020

Danthemailman said:
I don't reject 1 John 3:23 or John 6:29 and believing on Him is not just "another work" in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works. Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. So much for salvation by works. Also notice the "distinction" between faith "not" works in Ephesians 2:8,9. *Nowhere does the Bible teach salvation by faith and works.

Right, what you describe by quoting Romans 3:27-28, and Ephesians 2:8-9 is the first aspect of salvation which is being saved by God's grace through faith in Christ without the deeds of the Law of Moses. No person can be saved by keeping the Law of Moses and or by Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace. We are primarily saved by His grace like a gift when we first come to the Lord. We are also ultimately or foundationally saved by His grace, as well. For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins (1 John 1:9). But God's grace is not a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously, and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). You believe king David was saved even while he was committing his sins of adultery and murder. But this would be a violation of Jude 1:4.

Danthemailman · Nov 2, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
The point here is that you want works in Ephesians 2:8-9 to be in reference to all kinds of works. But then you have to reject John 6:29 in order to make this so. So you have to obviously accept John 6:29. This proves that Paul is not referring to all forms of works in Ephesians 2:8-9. Therein lies the contradiction in your own belief system.

Your premise is flawed and the contradiction lies in your own belief system. John 6:29 is simply a play on words by Jesus when he said, "This is the work (singular) of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent," when He answered the Jews (who were taking a legalistic approach) when they asked, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works (plural) of God?" So Jesus was not saying that believing is just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works or else He would be in contradiction with (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Now believing is clearly not a work that merits salvation. Through believing, we are completely trusting in "Another's work" (Christ's finished work of redemption). Through believing, Christ is the OBJECT of our complete trust in receiving salvation. Good works which "follow" believing in Christ unto salvation are the fruit of salvation, but not the root of it and if good works which follow believing in Christ unto salvation were the basis or means by which we obtained salvation, that would add merit on our part in obtaining salvation because then we would be saved through believing in Christ unto salvation "plus our works." You can't have it both ways.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 2, 2020

Danthemailman said:
Your premise is flawed and the contraction lies in your own belief system. John 6:29 is simply a play on words by Jesus when he said, "This is the work (singular) of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent," when He answered the Jews (who were taking a legalistic approach) when they asked, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works (plural) of God?" So Jesus was not saying that believing is just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works or else He would be in contradiction with (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Jesus did not say He was using a play on words. That is you adding to what our Lord said.
Also, a work (singular) in John 6:29 would still be included in the category of “works” in Ephesians 2:8-9 if you believe we are not saved by any form of works. So again, your belief here is contradictory and self imploding.

You said:
Now believing is clearly not a work that merits salvation. Through believing, we are completely trusting in "Another's work" (Christ's finished work of redemption). Through believing, Christ is the OBJECT of our complete trust in receiving salvation. Good works which "follow" believing in Christ unto salvation are the fruit of salvation, but not the root of it and if good works which follow believing in Christ unto salvation were the basis or means by which we obtained salvation, that would add merit on our part in obtaining salvation because then we would be saved through believing in Christ unto salvation "plus our works." You can't have it both ways.

Ephesians 2:9 is a man directed work. That is what this verse is referring to. How so? Because it talks about their boasting in themselves by doing this kind of work.
Ephesians 2:10 refers to God directed works after a person is saved by God's grace. But of course you probably would never pick up on this kind of subtle difference because your belief system will not allow for it.

Danthemailman · Nov 2, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Jesus did not say He was using a play on words. That is you adding to what our Lord said. Also, a work (singular) in John 6:29 would still be included in the category of “works” in Ephesians 2:8-9 if you believe we are not saved by any form of works. So again, your belief here is contradictory and self imploding.

Jesus was responding to the Jews (who were taking a legalistic approach) when they asked, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works (plural) of God?" in verse 28 and Jesus replied (play on words) by saying. "This is the work (singular) of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent," in verse 29.

So once again, believing is not just "another work" in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works. Go back and read (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).

Ephesians 2:9 is a man directed work. That is what this verse is referring to. How so? Because it talks about their boasting in themselves by doing this kind of work.

Any work that you "add" to salvation through faith in Christ would be a work that you could boast in because then you would be saved by grace through faith in Christ + works. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed.

Ephesians 2:10 refers to God directed works after a person is saved by God's grace. But of course you probably would never pick up on this kind of subtle difference because your belief system will not allow for it.

Paul clearly states that we are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10) Christ saves us through faith based on the merit of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merit of our works. (Romans 3:24-28) Works salvation is no salvation at all.

chad kincham · Nov 2, 2020

So once again said:
Romans 4:5-6[/URL]; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).

Any work that you "add" to salvation through faith in Christ would be a work that you could boast in because then you would be saved by grace through faith in Christ + works. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed.

Paul clearly states that we are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10) Christ saves us through faith based on the merit of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merit of our works. (Romans 3:24-28) Works salvation is no salvation at all.[/QUOTE

You’re mixing up salvation - being IN Christ Jesus by faith (and repentance, which is a condition of having our sins forgiven Acts 3:19) with things we are required to do to REMAIN IN Christ Jesus after salvation.

Peter explains that the believer has to make their calling and election sure, by adding to our faith the things he lists, one of which is Godliness.

He makes it clear we must do that, so we won’t be unfruitful, which is the long way around to say adding to our faith the things he listed, is bearing fruit.

2 Peter 1:3-11 under the heading CONFIRM YOUR CALLING AND ELECTION

This ties in with Jesus telling us that He’s the vine, and we are the branches, and that any branch that does not bear fruit, is cut off, and ends up burned.

John 15:1-6

Therefore we are required to bear fruit - it’s not an option - and doing so isn’t salvation by works of righteousness of the law of Moses, but obedience to Jesus.

In fact based on Luke 13:6-9 a believer has four years to bear fruit, or be cut off from Jesus.

We are also required after salvation to continue to walk after the Spirit, and continue to walk in the light, to continue to be in Christ.

Paul makes clear that after we have been saved, there is a continuing conflict between our wanting to walk in the flesh, (that wants us to live in sin)- and our desire to walk after the Holy Spirit that now dwells in us - and Paul warns that choosing to live in sins (works of the flesh), will keep us out of heaven:

Gal 5:16 ThisI say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Gal 5:18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Gal 5:19 Now the WORKS OF THE FLESH are manifest, which are these;Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell YOU again, as I have also told youin time past, that they which DO such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul warns us over and over, that if we choose to walk after the flesh, we will die spiritually - but if we choose to walk after the spirit, we will have everlasting life:

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded isDEATH, but to be spiritually minded isLIFE and peace.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind isENMITY against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Verse 8:7 above, having a carnal mind is ENMITY against God, meaning you actually become Gods ENEMY.

Will God let His enemies into heaven?

Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is ENMITY with God? whosoever therefore will be a FRIEND OF THE WORLD is the ENEMY of God.

The verse above says sexual sins and being worldly, makes you Gods ENEMY.

Will God welcome His enemies into heaven?

We are expected and required as believers, to live the most sinless life we can, and to repent when we know we’ve sinned.

Scripture clearly shows that continuing to remain in Christ is conditional on us 1) continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and 2) continuing to walk after the spirit, instead of after the flesh.

In the two verses below, I put in parentheses the conditional part of these scriptures that are always left out by hyper-grace, OSAS teachers.

1Jn 1:7 (But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another), and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The blood of Jesus cleansing the believer is conditional on their choosing to continue to walk in the light, as He is in the light.

Next:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, (who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, , but after the Spirit).

Having no condemnation, and remaining in Christ, is conditional upon walking after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.

And Paul warns us against being deceived about living in sin as a believer, when he wrote:

Gal 6:7 Be Not DECEIVED ; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man SOWETH,that shall he also REAP.

Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; BUT he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting

You reap everlasting life only if you sow to the spirit (walk after the Spirit, Romans 8:1) , but reap spiritual death if you sow to your flesh.

When we do occasionally sin, we must confess it, for God to forgive it. 1 John 1:9.

The lies of hyper grace are twofold: you don’t ever need to repent after salvation when you sin; and you can’t lose salvation.

This makes grace a license to sin, since sin has no eternal penalty.

Thus if you want a mistress on the side, you can have one, and regularly commit adultery - or if you’re a drunkard you can get drunk every day - you can live a sinful lifestyle with impunity.

I personally know people that are living in sin, and use OSAS as their sinning license, and they get angry if you tell them that Paul warned the brethren in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 that living in the sin of drunkenness or adultery, etc, will keep them out of heaven.

In that passage, Paul warns some of the believers that they are defrauding their brethren, (which is stealing, being a thief) then warns them that stealing, and other sins, will keep them from heaven:

1Co 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and DEFRAUD and that yourbrethren.

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? BE NOT DECEIVED: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1Co 6:10 Nor THIEVES, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Another warning by Paul, to the saints of God, about living a sinful lifestyle as a child of God:

Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh SAINTS.

Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath ANY inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Eph 5:6 Let no man DECEIVE you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the WRATH of God upon the children of disobedience.

Eph 5:7 Be not YE therefore partakers WITH them.

Being the bride of Christ is a covenant marriage.

God had a covenant marriage with Israel, and yet God divorced Israel in Jeremiah 3:8 for spiritual adultery, due to their continual sins.

In earthy marriage we agree to forsake all others and remain wed until death - yet committing adultery breaks the marriage covenant, and their is a divorce, nullifying the “Until death do we part” clause in that covenant.

Both Jesus and Paul use Adam and Eve as the example of marriage, and quote Genesis regarding marriage (that the two become one and cleave together) - thus marriage has not fundamentally changed between the OT and NT.

Adultery still nullifies the earthly marriage covenant, and spiritual adultery (continually sinning) still nullifies Gods marriage covenant, if there is no repentance.

Anyone who is His bride and chooses to go back to a sinful lifestyle without repentance, breaks the covenant marriage of Jesus and themselves, and they are no longer in Christ, and are no longer saved.

The prodigal son.

In the prodigal son story, the father represents God, thus the son represents believers who are Gods adopted sons.

He’s already a son when the story starts.

He leaves the father to live in sin

When he returns to the father in repentance, the father says: this is my son WHO WAS DEAD, but is now alive AGAIN, he WAS LOST, but now IS FOUND.

Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother *was dead*, and is *alive again*; and *was lost*, and *is found*.

He obviously wasn’t dead physically and resurrected.

How then was he dead?

He was dead in his sins.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened,who *were dead* in *trespasses and sins*

Thus the son was alive, left his Father to live a sinful life, became DEAD in his sins, then returned in repentance, and became alive AGAIN.

In Luke 8 Jesus tells the parable of the sower who sows the seed of the word of God.

Some seed sown lands on a rock. The seed GROWS, and results in new life, but then it withers and dies.

Jesus makes it clear that in the example of the seed sown on a rock, shows that some people BELIEVE for a while, but then FALL AWAY.

Luk 8:5 A sower went out to sow his seed...

Luk 8:6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.

Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, *receive the word with joy*; and these have no root, which FOR A WHILE BELIEVE, and in time of temptation FALL AWAY.

Notice above, they *received the word with joy*

To receive the word with joy, is to become a follower of Jesus Christ:

1Th 1:6 And ye became *followers of us, and of the Lord*, having ‘*received the word* in much affliction, *with joy* of the Holy Ghost.

Some believe for a while, then fall away.

OSAS is untrue.

chad kincham · Nov 2, 2020

Danthemailman said:
Actually, you are both very wrong.

Let me guess, you teach that we are saved by "these" works (works of obedience/good works etc..) and just not "those" works (specific works of the law). I hear works-salvationists use that bogus argument quite a bit.

When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect works of obedience/good works etc.. from the law. In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "works of obedience/good work," yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18)

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Now please tell me, which works of obedience/good works could a Christian perform which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works that we do as Christians which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself?

In Titus 3:5, Paul said that it's not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. and likewise, in 2 Timothy 1:9, Paul said that God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.. So it's not merely specific works of the law of Moses, but works in general.

Paul said "not of works" and you "added" not of works "of the law of Moses" to Ephesians 2:9.

We are not saved by works in general.

Again, when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect works of obedience and charity from the law of Moses. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40)

Of course there is no contradiction between Paul and James. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-26).
Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified based on Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony*

When Paul uses the word "justified," he is talking about the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James, on the other is using the word "justified" to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.

For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

Faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." That is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

Of course there is no contradiction and it's not because they are talking about two different kinds of works, but because Paul and James are using the term "justified" in two different senses:

Paul - "accounted as righteous."
James - "shown to be righteous."

This sugar coated double talk amounts to "type 2 works salvation."

chad kincham · Nov 2, 2020

Danthemailman said:
rks etc.. of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." That is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

Of course there is no contradiction and it's not because they are talking about two different kinds of works, but because Paul and James are using the term "justified" in two different senses:

Paul - "accounted as righteous."
James - "shown to be righteous."

This sugar coated double talk amounts to "type 2 works salvation."

[QUOTE="Danthemailman, post: 75476195, member:

This sugar coated double talk amounts to "type 2 works salvation."[/QUOTE]

Your entire shpiel mixes up being saved, and thus being in Christ Jesus, with the clear conditions for those who’ve been saved to remain in Christ Jesus.

Peter explains that the believer has to make their calling and election sure, by adding to their faith the things he lists, one of which is Godliness.

He makes it clear we must do that so we won’t be unfruitful, which is the long way around to say adding to our faith the things he listed is bearing fruit.

A believer is required to bear fruit, to make their calling and election, sure, so they won’t FALL.

2Peter 1:4-11

This ties in with Jesus telling us that He’s the vine, and we are the branches, and that any branch that does not bear fruit is cut off, and ends up burned.

John 15:1-6

Therefore we are required to bear fruit - it’s not an option - and doing so isn’t salvation by works of righteousness, but obedience to Jesus.

In fact based on Luke 13:6-9 a believer has four years to bear fruit, or be cut off from Jesus.

Once saved, we are required to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and walk after the Spirit, and not after the flesh, to remain in Christ.

Paul makes clear that after we have been saved, there is a continuing conflict between our wanting to walk in the flesh, (that wants us to live in sin)- and our desire to walk after the Holy Spirit that now dwells in us - and Paul warns that choosing to live in sins (works of the flesh), will keep us out of heaven:

Gal 5:16 ThisI say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Gal 5:18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Gal 5:19 Now the WORKS OF THE FLESH are manifest, which are these;Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell YOU again, as I have also told youin time past, that they which DO such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul warns us over and over, that if we choose to walk after the flesh, we will die spiritually - but if we choose to walk after the spirit, we will have everlasting life:

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded isDEATH, but to be spiritually minded isLIFE and peace.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind isENMITY against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Verse 8:7 above, having a carnal mind is ENMITY against God, meaning you actually become Gods ENEMY.

Will God let His enemies into heaven?

Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is ENMITY with God? whosoever therefore will be a FRIEND OF THE WORLD is the ENEMY of God.

The verse above says sexual sins and being worldly, makes you Gods ENEMY.

Will God welcome His enemies into heaven?

We are expected and required as believers, to live the most sinless life we can, and to repent when we know we’ve sinned.

Scripture clearly shows that continuing to remain in Christ is conditional on us 1) continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and 2) continuing to walk after the spirit, instead of after the flesh.

In the two verses below, I put in parentheses the conditional part of these scriptures that are always left out by hyper-grace, OSAS teachers.

1Jn 1:7 (But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another), and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The blood of Jesus cleansing the believer is conditional on their choosing to continue to walk in the light, as He is in the light.

Next:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, (who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, , but after the Spirit).

Having no condemnation, and remaining in Christ, is conditional upon walking after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.

And Paul warns us against being deceived about living in sin as a believer, when he wrote:

Gal 6:7 Be Not DECEIVED ; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man SOWETH,that shall he also REAP.

Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; BUT he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting

You reap everlasting life only if you sow to the spirit (walk after the Spirit, Romans 8:1) , but reap spiritual death if you sow to your flesh.

When we do occasionally sin, we must confess it, for God to forgive it. 1 John 1:9.

The lies of hyper grace are twofold: you don’t ever need to repent after salvation when you sin; and you can’t lose salvation.

This makes grace a license to sin, since sin has no eternal penalty.

Thus if you want a mistress on the side, you can have one, and regularly commit adultery - or if you’re a drunkard you can get drunk every day - you can live a sinful lifestyle with impunity.

I personally know people that are living in sin, and use OSAS as their sinning license, and they get angry if you tell them that Paul warned the brethren in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 that living in the sin of drunkenness or adultery, etc, will keep them out of heaven.

In that passage, Paul warns some of the believers that they are defrauding their brethren, (which is stealing, being a thief) then warns them that stealing, and other sins, will keep them from heaven:

1Co 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and DEFRAUD and that yourbrethren.

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? BE NOT DECEIVED: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1Co 6:10 Nor THIEVES, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Another warning by Paul, to the saints of God, about living a sinful lifestyle as a child of God:

Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh SAINTS.

Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath ANY inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Eph 5:6 Let no man DECEIVE you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the WRATH of God upon the children of disobedience.

Eph 5:7 Be not YE therefore partakers WITH them.

Being the bride of Christ is a covenant marriage.

God had a covenant marriage with Israel, and yet God divorced Israel in Jeremiah 3:8 for spiritual adultery, due to their continual sins.

In earthy marriage we agree to forsake all others and remain wed until death - yet committing adultery breaks the marriage covenant, and their is a divorce, nullifying the “Until death do we part” clause in that covenant.

Both Jesus and Paul use Adam and Eve as the example of marriage, and quote Genesis regarding marriage (that the two become one and cleave together) - thus marriage has not fundamentally changed between the OT and NT.

Adultery still nullifies the earthly marriage covenant, and spiritual adultery (continually sinning) still nullifies Gods marriage covenant, if there is no repentance.

Anyone who is His bride and chooses to go back to a sinful lifestyle without repentance, breaks the covenant marriage of Jesus and themselves, and they are no longer in Christ, and are no longer saved.

The prodigal son.

In the prodigal son story, the father represents God, thus the son represents believers who are Gods adopted sons.

He’s already a son when the story starts.

He leaves the father to live in sin

When he returns to the father in repentance, the father says: this is my son WHO WAS DEAD, but is now alive AGAIN, he WAS LOST, but now IS FOUND.

Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother *was dead*, and is *alive again*; and *was lost*, and *is found*.

He obviously wasn’t dead physically and resurrected.

How then was he dead?

He was dead in his sins.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened,who *were dead* in *trespasses and sins*

Thus the son was alive, left his Father to live a sinful life, became DEAD in his sins, then returned in repentance, and became alive AGAIN.

In Luke 8 Jesus tells the parable of the sower who sows the seed of the word of God.

Some seed sown lands on a rock. The seed GROWS, and results in new life, but then it withers and dies.

Jesus makes it clear that in the example of the seed sown on a rock, shows that some people BELIEVE for a while, but then FALL AWAY.

Luk 8:5 A sower went out to sow his seed...

Luk 8:6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.

Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, *receive the word with joy*; and these have no root, which FOR A WHILE BELIEVE, and in time of temptation FALL AWAY.

Notice above, they *received the word with joy*

To receive the word with joy, is to become a follower of Jesus Christ:

1Th 1:6 And ye became *followers of us, and of the Lord*, having ‘*received the word* in much affliction, *with joy* of the Holy Ghost.

Some believe for a while, then fall away.

OSAS is unbiblical.

Danthemailman · Nov 3, 2020

chad kincham said:
Your entire shpiel mixes up being saved, and thus being in Christ Jesus, with the clear conditions for those who’ve been saved to remain in Christ Jesus.

Your idea of how to remain in Christ amounts to "type 2 works salvation." You already demonstrated that you teach salvation by works in post #120. To be more specific, salvation by "these" works and just not "those" works. You use the same argument that I heard while attending the Roman Catholic church prior to my conversion several years ago.

Peter explains that the believer has to make their calling and election sure, by adding to their faith the things he lists, one of which is Godliness. He makes it clear we must do that so we won’t be unfruitful, which is the long way around to say adding to our faith the things he listed is bearing fruit. A believer is required to bear fruit, to make their calling and election, sure, so they won’t FALL. 2 Peter 1:4-11

By cultivating the qualities listed in 2 Peter 1:5-7, believers can be sure that God has called them and elected them. These fruits will confirm it. Make sure you have been called and elected - bébaios (an adjective, derived from bainō, "to walk where it is solid") – properly, solid (sure) enough to walk on; hence, firm, unshakable; (figuratively) absolutely dependable, giving guaranteed support (security, surety). To practice these qualities gives evidence of salvation, though they are not the basis (or cause) of salvation. They are the effect.

Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.

This ties in with Jesus telling us that He’s the vine, and we are the branches, and that any branch that does not bear fruit is cut off, and ends up burned.

John 15:1-6

In regards to abiding in the vine in John 15, Greek scholar AT Robertson explains that there are - "two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit, mh peron karpon) the vine-dresser "takes away" (airei) or prunes away. Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas..”

John 15:2 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

Therefore we are required to bear fruit - it’s not an option - and doing so isn’t salvation by works of righteousness, but obedience to Jesus.

Bearing fruit is not forced or legalistic for those who are born of God. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) You say obedience to Jesus is not works of righteousness? What is it then? Works of unrighteousness? Your argument is sugar coated double talk. Faith that saves trusts in Jesus as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation and obedience to Jesus "which follows" is works of righteousness and we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done.. (Titus 3:5)

In fact based on Luke 13:6-9 a believer has four years to bear fruit, or be cut off from Jesus.

The tree itself has two symbolic meanings: the nation of Israel and the individual.

What is the meaning of the Parable of the Fig Tree? | GotQuestions.org

Once saved, we are required to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and walk after the Spirit, and not after the flesh, to remain in Christ. 1Jn 1:7 (But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another), and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1 John 1:6 - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of children of the devil. Walking in the light is descriptive of children of God. Only those who are saved/believers are in the light.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

Ephesians 5:8 - for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light. Children of the devil walk in darkness, not in the light. Children of God walk in the light, not in darkness. *IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.

In 1 John 2:9, we read - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. Verse 11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

*Compare with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor is he who does not love his brother. *Notice that "walks in darkness" and "hates his brother" is connected with "children of the devil." Works-salvationists typically confuse "descriptive" passages of scripture with "prescriptive" passages of scripture.

Paul makes clear that after we have been saved, there is a continuing conflict between our wanting to walk in the flesh, (that wants us to live in sin)- and our desire to walk after the Holy Spirit that now dwells in us - and Paul warns that choosing to live in sins (works of the flesh), will keep us out of heaven:

Gal 5:16 ThisI say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Gal 5:18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Gal 5:19 Now the WORKS OF THE FLESH are manifest, which are these;Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell YOU again, as I have also told youin time past, that they which DO such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:21 - those who practice such things (sins) will not inherit the kingdom of God. 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin.. Yet this does not mean that those who are born of God are sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolutely perfect, 100% of the time.

Paul warns us over and over, that if we choose to walk after the flesh, we will die spiritually - but if we choose to walk after the spirit, we will have everlasting life:

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded isDEATH, but to be spiritually minded isLIFE and peace.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind isENMITY against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Verse 8:7 above, having a carnal mind is ENMITY against God, meaning you actually become Gods ENEMY.

Will God let His enemies into heaven?

If a person’s intent is to live according to the flesh, it’s an indication that he is not saved. Those who are habitually dominated by the sinful nature (unbelievers) put their minds on the things of the sinful nature, but those who are habitually dominated by the Spirit (believers) put their minds on the things of the Spirit. If a person, by the Spirit is putting to death the deeds of the body, it's an indication he is saved.

Romans 8:13 (AMP) - for if you are living according to the [impulses of the] flesh, you are going to die. But if [you are living] by the [power of the Holy] Spirit you are habitually putting to death the sinful deeds of the body, you will [really] live forever.

Also, just because Paul's letter is addressed to "brethren" does not mean that everyone in a group of professing believers is a genuine believer. How about some context and notice the CONTRAST: Romans 8:5 - For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.

Your post is way too long and I don't have time to address all of your arguments (yet I've heard them all before so none of your arguments are anything new or enlightening) but I will gladly address this last one:

In Luke 8 Jesus tells the parable of the sower who sows the seed of the word of God.

Some seed sown lands on a rock. The seed GROWS, and results in new life, but then it withers and dies.

Jesus makes it clear that in the example of the seed sown on a rock, shows that some people BELIEVE for a while, but then FALL AWAY.

Luk 8:5 A sower went out to sow his seed...

Luk 8:6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.

Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, *receive the word with joy*; and these have no root, which FOR A WHILE BELIEVE, and in time of temptation FALL AWAY.

Even though this rocky ground hearer in Luke 8:13 is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the rocky ground hearer was never actually "saved"?

I will explain why:

First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer in the 4th soil, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. *Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart.* People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.

IN CONTRAST TO - Mark 4:8 - But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. Luke 8:15 says, But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. So the rocky soil represents a person not properly prepared in heart so the seed planted ends up with a lack of "root" (lack of being firmly planted, or established) and good soil represents a person properly prepared in heart who having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keeps it and bears fruit with patience.

*Unlike saving belief, shallow, temporary belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? It doesn't. Also the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they are not saved.

John has portrayed people who "believe" (at least to some extent) but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted and established belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. We can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not truly "believe unto salvation" and become children of God (John 1:12; 3:18) but were instead children of the devil.

Notice above, they *received the word with joy*

In this case, *emotional response that did not take root.*

To receive the word with joy, is to become a follower of Jesus Christ:

Not in the case of the rocky ground hearer whose belief had no root, produced no fruit, lacked moisture and withered away. Faith without works is dead.

Some believe for a while, then fall away.

*Shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit, lacks moisture and withers away does not represent saving belief.*

1Th 1:6 And ye became *followers of us, and of the Lord*, having ‘*received the word* in much affliction, *with joy* of the Holy Ghost.

In this came, they actually *became followers of the Lord and received the word in much affliction and with joy of the Holy Spirit.* Unlike the rocky ground hearers who merely made an emotional response to the word, but the word did not take root, so when trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they fall away which demonstrates they were not truly converted.

OSAS is unbiblical.

Says you and all false religions and cults that teach salvation by works, which has always been a major red flag for me.

RickReads · Nov 25, 2020

Danthemailman said:
Your idea of how to remain in Christ amounts to "type 2 works salvation." You already demonstrated that you teach salvation by works in post #120. To be more specific, salvation by "these" works and just not "those" works. You use the same argument that I heard while attending the Roman Catholic church prior to my conversion several years ago.

By cultivating the qualities listed in 2 Peter 1:5-7, believers can be sure that God has called them and elected them. These fruits will confirm it. Make sure you have been called and elected - bébaios (an adjective, derived from bainō, "to walk where it is solid") – properly, solid (sure) enough to walk on; hence, firm, unshakable; (figuratively) absolutely dependable, giving guaranteed support (security, surety). To practice these qualities gives evidence of salvation, though they are not the basis (or cause) of salvation. They are the effect.

Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.

In regards to abiding in the vine in John 15, Greek scholar AT Robertson explains that there are - "two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit, mh peron karpon) the vine-dresser "takes away" (airei) or prunes away. Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas..”

John 15:2 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

Bearing fruit is not forced or legalistic for those who are born of God. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) You say obedience to Jesus is not works of righteousness? What is it then? Works of unrighteousness? Your argument is sugar coated double talk. Faith that saves trusts in Jesus as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation and obedience to Jesus "which follows" is works of righteousness and we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done.. (Titus 3:5)

The tree itself has two symbolic meanings: the nation of Israel and the individual.

What is the meaning of the Parable of the Fig Tree? | GotQuestions.org

1 John 1:6 - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of children of the devil. Walking in the light is descriptive of children of God. Only those who are saved/believers are in the light.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

Ephesians 5:8 - for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light. Children of the devil walk in darkness, not in the light. Children of God walk in the light, not in darkness. *IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.

In 1 John 2:9, we read - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. Verse 11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

*Compare with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor is he who does not love his brother. *Notice that "walks in darkness" and "hates his brother" is connected with "children of the devil." Works-salvationists typically confuse "descriptive" passages of scripture with "prescriptive" passages of scripture.

Galatians 5:21 - those who practice such things (sins) will not inherit the kingdom of God. 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin.. Yet this does not mean that those who are born of God are sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolutely perfect, 100% of the time.

If a person’s intent is to live according to the flesh, it’s an indication that he is not saved. Those who are habitually dominated by the sinful nature (unbelievers) put their minds on the things of the sinful nature, but those who are habitually dominated by the Spirit (believers) put their minds on the things of the Spirit. If a person, by the Spirit is putting to death the deeds of the body, it's an indication he is saved.

Romans 8:13 (AMP) - for if you are living according to the [impulses of the] flesh, you are going to die. But if [you are living] by the [power of the Holy] Spirit you are habitually putting to death the sinful deeds of the body, you will [really] live forever.

Also, just because Paul's letter is addressed to "brethren" does not mean that everyone in a group of professing believers is a genuine believer. How about some context and notice the CONTRAST: Romans 8:5 - For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.

Your post is way too long and I don't have time to address all of your arguments (yet I've heard them all before so none of your arguments are anything new or enlightening) but I will gladly address this last one:

Even though this rocky ground hearer in Luke 8:13 is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the rocky ground hearer was never actually "saved"?

I will explain why:

First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer in the 4th soil, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. *Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart.* People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.

IN CONTRAST TO - Mark 4:8 - But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. Luke 8:15 says, But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. So the rocky soil represents a person not properly prepared in heart so the seed planted ends up with a lack of "root" (lack of being firmly planted, or established) and good soil represents a person properly prepared in heart who having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keeps it and bears fruit with patience.

*Unlike saving belief, shallow, temporary belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? It doesn't. Also the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they are not saved.

John has portrayed people who "believe" (at least to some extent) but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted and established belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. We can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not truly "believe unto salvation" and become children of God (John 1:12; 3:18) but were instead children of the devil.

In this case, *emotional response that did not take root.*

Not in the case of the rocky ground hearer whose belief had no root, produced no fruit, lacked moisture and withered away. Faith without works is dead.

*Shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit, lacks moisture and withers away does not represent saving belief.*

In this came, they actually *became followers of the Lord and received the word in much affliction and with joy of the Holy Spirit.* Unlike the rocky ground hearers who merely made an emotional response to the word, but the word did not take root, so when trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they fall away which demonstrates they were not truly converted.

Says you and all false religions and cults that teach salvation by works, which has always been a major red flag for me.

It is evident that works do not produce salvation. I am thankful to depend on Jesus.

mlepfitjw · Nov 26, 2020

I would say the only thing holy about a Christian is when the Holy Spirit is acting in them.

And it’s so hard to discern who is a believer or not unless they tell you they do, especially out here in the real world.

There are believers who curse, use drugs, use inappropriate contentography, even tell white lies sometimes, yet when the Holy Spirit is then and they are generating kindness, forbearance, and love towards someone, the spirit of Christ which holy is flowing through them....

There many people who believe with different measures of faith from what they have learned in this life from experiences others and whatever.

Some decieved yet thinking they are doing the right things for Christ in the cult like structures and things.

How can God fault them? they only thought they were doing the right things.

Can Christians live a holy life?

Can Christians Live a Holy Life?

Yes (But Christians can only live holy by cooperating freely with God working within them).

Yes (Christians can live holy by their own merits or power).

Yes (Christians are changed to a point where they cannot help but to do so).

No (Christians cannot live holy in any way; They are only made holy by the finished work of Christ)

No (Other explanation; Please explain)

Maybe. It depends (Please explain).

Other (Please explain).

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Well-Known Member

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May you be blessed!

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