Are you saved because you believe? Or do you believe because you are saved?

1an

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Water baptism does not save, it is for those who believe already, and is a public demonstration of that persons faith. Baptism in the Holy Spirit generally comes later for those who seek it and is really important for those who want to go further with God personally, and in witnessing to others.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Total Depravity teaches that man is incapable, because his heart is turned away from God --i.e. unwilling. Remember that God looks on the heart to judge the deeds. If man is unwilling (and the lost most definitely are unwilling), his heart has rejected God, and remains at enmity with God, and his degree of condemnation is appropriate. Remember also, what it says in John 3:18, that one is already condemned who does not believe. It does not say that each offer of salvation rejected is a new sin, (for which after your logic he is unjustly condemned).

So all they have to do is change their mind and repent? If that’s the case how is anyone totally depraved if they are capable of changing their mind and repenting?
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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Spiritual Jew knows what he is talking about. It would pay you to learn from him.
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not if he believes in a free will that can choose God apart from God enabling a person. man is dead in sin, a slave to sin, sin is their master, man hates God, is a child of the devil, does not understand the things of the spirit(anything to do with Gods word and Salvation), does not seek God, loves darkness and hates the light,

Man by nature is deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9),
Man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
Man loves darkness (John 3:19),
Man does not seek for God (Romans 3:10-12),
Man is ungodly (Romans 5:6),
Man is dead in his sins (Ephesians 2:1),
Man by nature is a child of wrath (Ephesians 2:3),
Man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14),
Man is a slave of sin (Romans 6:16-20)
Man is sinful at birth, sinful from the time of conception (Psalms 51:5)
Man is like a filthy rag his garments stained by sin and is unrighteous ( Isaiah 64:6)
Man is hostile towards God and cannot submit to Him or His law ( Romans 8:7)
Man cannot do good and is completely incapable of such an act ( Romans 3:12)
Man is not born with faith so everything is done in sin ( Romans 14:23)
Man has not one single thing that is good in him ( Romans 7:18)
Man is born condemned ( John 3:18)

hope this helps !!!
 
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1an

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not if he believes in a free will that can choose God apart from God enabling a person. man is dead in sin, a slave to sin, sin is their master, man hates God, is a child of the devil, does not understand the things of the spirit(anything to do with Gods word and Salvation), does not seek God, loves darkness and hates the light,

Man by nature is deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9),
Man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
Man loves darkness (John 3:19),
Man does not seek for God (Romans 3:10-12),
Man is ungodly (Romans 5:6),
Man is dead in his sins (Ephesians 2:1),
Man by nature is a child of wrath (Ephesians 2:3),
Man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14),
Man is a slave of sin (Romans 6:16-20)
Man is sinful at birth, sinful from the time of conception (Psalms 51:5)
Man is like a filthy rag his garments stained by sin and is unrighteous ( Isaiah 64:6)
Man is hostile towards God and cannot submit to Him or His law ( Romans 8:7)
Man cannot do good and is completely incapable of such an act ( Romans 3:12)
Man is not born with faith so everything is done in sin ( Romans 14:23)
Man has not one single thing that is good in him ( Romans 7:18)
Man is born condemned ( John 3:18)

hope this helps !!!
Of course we have free will, what do you think Adam and Eve exercised? They followed the serpent, despite having a good relationship with the creator.

Please do not bother me anymore with your nonsense it helps nobody.
.
 
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1an

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not if he believes in a free will that can choose God apart from God enabling a person. man is dead in sin, a slave to sin, sin is their master, man hates God, is a child of the devil, does not understand the things of the spirit(anything to do with Gods word and Salvation), does not seek God, loves darkness and hates the light,

Man by nature is deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9),
Man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
Man loves darkness (John 3:19),
Man does not seek for God (Romans 3:10-12),
Man is ungodly (Romans 5:6),
Man is dead in his sins (Ephesians 2:1),
Man by nature is a child of wrath (Ephesians 2:3),
Man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14),
Man is a slave of sin (Romans 6:16-20)
Man is sinful at birth, sinful from the time of conception (Psalms 51:5)
Man is like a filthy rag his garments stained by sin and is unrighteous ( Isaiah 64:6)
Man is hostile towards God and cannot submit to Him or His law ( Romans 8:7)
Man cannot do good and is completely incapable of such an act ( Romans 3:12)
Man is not born with faith so everything is done in sin ( Romans 14:23)
Man has not one single thing that is good in him ( Romans 7:18)
Man is born condemned ( John 3:18)

hope this helps !!!
So, if man is evil, wicked, and hostile to God from birth, as scripture tells us , and as YOU have shown, it needs people to exercise their freewill in order to turn to God. If we did not have freewill we would remain in the same sinful state in which we were born and from which condition Christ came to save us.
.
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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So, if man is evil, wicked, and hostile to God from birth, as scripture tells us , and as YOU have shown, it needs people to exercise their freewill in order to turn to God. If we did not have freewill we would remain in the same sinful state in which we were born and from which condition Christ came to save us.
.
Listen to Jesus below as many disciples stopped following Him. These were the ones who on their own " free will " as you put it followed Jesus but the ones Jesus calls, chooses, enables, will remain in Him and follow Him unto death as all His Apostles had done who suffered persecution and death for being His disciples.

John 6:60-66
On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Total Depravity.

It teaches that, as a consequence of man's fall, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin as a result of their fallen nature and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is completely unable to choose by themselves to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered. (wikipedia)
If you mean by your post to show that I was in error that Calvinism teaches that man is unable to repent because man is unwilling to repent, because Wiki says it teaches that as a consequence of man's fall that they are unable, you are mistaken. Calvinism shows that man is born a slave to sin, but that their will is continually set against God, until God regenerates them.
 
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Mark Quayle

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So all they have to do is change their mind and repent? If that’s the case how is anyone totally depraved if they are capable of changing their mind and repenting?
Who said --who even hinted at, "all they have to do is change their mind and repent"? Of course they are NOT capable of changing their mind and repenting! Only God can change their mind, making them willing to repent. Only God can make anyone's repentance "real".
 
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Who said --who even hinted at, "all they have to do is change their mind and repent"? Of course they are NOT capable of changing their mind and repenting! Only God can change their mind, making them willing to repent. Only God can make anyone's repentance "real".
The funny thing is all they can do is use ad hominem attacks on the scriptures I post and not once did I mention "calvin" .

Non trinitarians do this all the time with the creeds and councils. I tell them I'm a biblical trinitarian and do not need them to defend God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

If you do not like the word " trinity, triune" then I can use the biblical term Godhead and defend the 3 Divine Persons of the Godhead without using the trinity or the creeds since its all biblical, not extra biblical.

The same goes with Total Depravity, inability etc.....

We can defend them from Scripture without using non biblical terms but the conclusions are the same.
 
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John Mullally

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Maybe I should have put the quote marks like so: "X" is not X. It may be called X, but it is not. Thus, a person "coming to Christ" on his own accord, is not coming to Christ at all. "The bed is too short, the blanket too narrow..."(Isaiah 28:20). I have certainly proved to myself that even my best efforts are not worth counting on, but more, we have the witness of Scripture that the lost cannot come to Christ until he enables them.

I don't see how in 2 Peter 2:20 "...after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ..." demonstrates saving faith. To me, that sounds like the Pharisees' attendance to the law, and reaping certain benefits by it, nothing more.
No faith other than "Saving Faith" involves the "knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus" and has the power to escape "the pollutions of this world".
 
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1an

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Listen to Jesus below as many disciples stopped following Him. These were the ones who on their own " free will " as you put it followed Jesus but the ones Jesus calls, chooses, enables, will remain in Him and follow Him unto death as all His Apostles had done who suffered persecution and death for being His disciples.

John 6:60-66
On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
The god of this world is Satan, but you chose Christ, good for you, but that decision you made for Jesus DEMONSTRATES YOUR FREE WILL.
.
 
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The god of this world is Satan, but you chose Christ, good for you, but that decision you made for Jesus DEMONSTRATES YOUR FREE WILL.
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No it demonstrates Jesus words below:

John 6:65
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”
 
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Mark Quayle

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So, if man is evil, wicked, and hostile to God from birth, as scripture tells us , and as YOU have shown, it needs people to exercise their freewill in order to turn to God. If we did not have freewill we would remain in the same sinful state in which we were born and from which condition Christ came to save us.
.
You are merely restating the same thesis. You are not showing the logical link between man's lost condition and freewill. The Scriptures do not demonstrate any need for freewill. While they do demonstrate the fact of man's CHOICE, they don't demonstrate choice as the determining factor (i.e. the cause, to any degree) for Salvation. They do show a man's choice as evidence for Salvation, but not a cause for Salvation.
 
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1an

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Listen to Jesus below as many disciples stopped following Him. These were the ones who on their own " free will " as you put it followed Jesus but the ones Jesus calls, chooses, enables, will remain in Him and follow Him unto death as all His Apostles had done who suffered persecution and death for being His disciples.

John 6:60-66
On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
Many disciples TURNED BACK. First they followed Jesus, and then they changed their minds of their OWN FREEWILL even though the Father had ENABLED them.
.
 
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1an

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No it demonstrates Jesus words below:

John 6:65
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”
Enabled because they wanted to, but NOT FORCED.
.
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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Many disciples TURNED BACK. First they followed Jesus, and then they changed their minds of their OWN FREEWILL.
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You are making my point for me lol. Their free will decision is why they no longer followed Him for they were never drawn to Christ by the Father, hence they fell away.

1 John 2:!9
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

the more you comment and ask questions the deeper the hole you dig yourself into Ian.

hope this helps !!!
 
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RickReads

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No it demonstrates Jesus words below:

John 6:65
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

The big flaw in your premise is that the majority of people the Father drags to Jesus do not choose Him nor are they chosen. Your position is that they are already saved which isn`t possible.
 
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1an

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You are making my point for me lol. Their free will decision is why they no longer followed Him for they were never drawn to Christ by the Father, hence they fell away.

1 John 2:!9
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

the more you comment and ask questions the deeper the hole you dig yourself into Ian.

hope this helps !!!
You say, "their FREEWILL decision."

You are all over the place.
.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Calvanists need to prop up the "Perseverance of the Saints" in "TULIP".
What does this have to do with the current subject of debate? I do believe it is related, but it seems to me you are moving the goalposts.
No faith other than "Saving Faith" involves "knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus" and escapes "the pollutions of this world".
You know this, how? Did not Judas know the Lord and Savior Jesus, and do not those who follow the law reap the benefits of doing so? For example, simply reading and filling one's mind with Scripture will do much to clean one's mind and put it on spiritual things (though it remain unable to understand spiritual things) so that the depths of depravity will not be indulged in to the degree that one might go who spends their time reading or watching depraved filth. Likewise, one who refrains from adultery and sexual immorality is not likely to contract STD's.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Enabled because they wanted to, but NOT FORCED.
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And....around and around we go.....

You can call it "forced" if you like. But that sounds (at least to me) like a vehement clinging to the right of self-determination, not a humble gratefulness to our loving, magnificent and merciful God for our undeserved salvation.

Why don't you call it "forced" that you were born at all? Why not "forced" that everyone is born a slave to sin?
 
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