Recommended book on Creation

WonbyOneanddone · Oct 31, 2020

chad kincham said:
It was the Catholic Church who insisted on the geocentric model for their cosmology, and if they got that view from the Bible, I’ve never seen that written in it.

There’s nothing in scripture that demands geocentrism or flat-earth belief, either.

BTW the astronomer who contended with the Roman Church, Galileo, was a Christian himself.

Though the RC burned heretics at the stake, I don’t recall any being burned for a heliocentric belief.

Shalom.

The Bible does not state that the universe revolves around the Earth. That was merely an intepretation.

The view of the church was that if man was the center of creation then creation must revolve around us.

Yes, I know, it's stupid, but it it what it is and shows how misinterpretations of the Bible are dangerous.

WonbyOneanddone · Oct 31, 2020

chad kincham said:
Fascism and communism - both of which were atheist ideologies - murdered more than 150 million people in the 20th Century alone. Communist and other godless regimes have continued to kill hundreds of thousands since. Add the millions of rapes, tortures and enslavements by these same godless regimes, and you’ve got yourself a pretty ugly picture.

Again, those ideologies with political power is what murdered those people. Had those ideologies not acquired political power, it would not have happened, which underscores the importance of making sure people with Marxist ideologies, like BLM, not attain political power.

WonbyOneanddone · Oct 31, 2020

coffee4u said:
Well that easy to answer, there was no 'Cambrian explosion occurring some 500 million years ago' because God told us that he created in 6 days and it was fairly recent, as in 10-15 thousand years ago.

As a Christian, the mere fact that there was an "explosion" of life via the Cambrian Explosion should excite you. After all, how did life explode into existence when we are all led to believe that the formation of life is some slow dreary process via evolution. Instead, you insist it never happened because you think the timing is off according to your interpretation of the Bible. But if you stop and listen to what I'm saying and see that it might be right, not only will you have the fact that life exploded into the oceans as a scientific fact, you then could explain how it occurred as science says it did.

Would this not be a good way then to share your faith with someone who has any degree of education in science?

Or we can continue to make the bold assertion that either science or God is lying to us, as if they were mutually exclusive, therefore you must choose one and reject the other. That I think is a mistake because truth is in both.

WonbyOneanddone · Oct 31, 2020

chad kincham said:
That’s what it says. It’s a review of Genesis 1.

JFB commentary writes:

Genesis 2:4

These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth — the history or account of their production. Whence did Moses obtain this account so different from the puerile and absurd fictions of the heathen? Not from any human source, for man was not in existence to witness it; not from the light of nature or reason, for though they proclaim the eternal power and Godhead by the things which are made, they cannot tell how they were made. None but the Creator Himself could give this information, and therefore it is through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God (Heb 11:3).

David Guzik commentary:

2. (Gen 2:4-7) The history of the heavens and the earth.

This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, before any plant of the field was in the earth and before any herb of the field had grown. For the LORD God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground; but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground. And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

a. This is the history of the heavens and the earth: This probably ends the “genealogy” of the heavens and the earth, a history given directly by God to either Moses or Adam, recording the history of God’s seven-day creation. This was something no human was present to witness.

b. In the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens: This is the first use of LORD (Yahweh) in the Bible. Our English word Lord comes from the Anglo-Saxon word for bread (as does our word loaf), because ancient English men of high stature would keep a continual open house, where all could come and get bread to eat. They gained the honorable title of lords, meaning “dispensers of bread.”

So if you believe that the term "history" is used to describe a day or two, that is your interpretation I suppose. But to me it is suspect. I would not use that term to refer to a day or two.

But also notice how God created. He speaks to the oceans to bring forth life. He uses the dust of the ground to bring forth man, etc. In other words, it appears God is using the material already created to form living things, which further mirrors the teachings of science.

WonbyOneanddone · Oct 31, 2020

chad kincham said:
Once upon a time, the steady state theory was the accepted cosmological model of astrophysics and astronomy, and the universe was said to have always existed.

If you read and believed the Bible back then, that states that the universe had a sudden beginning at a point in time, who would have been right - science, or the Bible?

The Big Bang theory is science catching up to the Genesis account of creation.

The Bible also said God hangs the earth on nothing, long before astronomy and telescopes were invented.

The Bible isn’t a science text - it’s a spiritual guide - but it has a pretty fair amount of science and medical knowledge in it, written long before science confirmed it.

You are correct. In fact, a priest came up with the Big Bang theory.

Once again the Bible was proven correct. We had a beginning as science finally came to that truth as well, independently of the Bible.

Brightmoon · Nov 1, 2020

One correction, the Cambrian explosion was about the spread of hard shelled animals during the Cambrian. Life had already been on the planet for about 3 billion years before that happened. Why do creationists always focus on the Cambrian explosion which happened over a period of at least 10 million years anyway. They take the explosion part too literally.

coffee4u · Nov 1, 2020

Brightmoon said:
. Your point is well made , YOU don’t know everything and yet you’ll tell people who are knowledgeable about things YOU don’t understand , that they’re wrong ! Do you know what an argument from ignorance is?

I didn't come here to argue with you, okay. We all know where you stand and where I stand on this issue.

My argument will always and only be scripture.

coffee4u · Nov 1, 2020

WonbyOneanddone said:
As a Christian, the mere fact that there was an "explosion" of life via the Cambrian Explosion should excite you. After all, how did life explode into existence when we are all led to believe that the formation of life is some slow dreary process via evolution.

I think you meant to say "when I was led to believe" because I certainly don't.

"how did life explode into existence"

11 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

20 Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living e]">[e]creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the f]">[f]firmament of the heavens.” 21 So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind”; and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

It's right there for us to read, no mystery whatsoever.

Instead, you insist it never happened because you think the timing is off according to your interpretation of the Bible.

I don't insist it never happened because of timing, I know it didn't happen because God says he created in 6 days.
Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them,
How much more plain do you need it to be?

But if you stop and listen to what I'm saying and see that it might be right, not only will you have the fact that life exploded into the oceans as a scientific fact, you then could explain how it occurred as science says it did.

I have no need to explain it the way science says because they are wrong, 100% wrong. If they are right then you may as well throw your Bible and your faith away because the gospel crumbles without it. You seem to think the argument is over creation vs evolution, it isn't, that is just the surface appearance. What it is really about is the doctrine of original sin- that is how and where and why sin came to be and why it took a perfect sinless death to overcome it.
This is the crux of the argument -sin and redemption of sin. This is why us creationsist are all so fired up, because it directly affects the Gospel.

Would this not be a good way then to share your faith with someone who has any degree of education in science?

That would be a terrible way to share the faith.

Creation is woven throughout scripture in tiny details. Lets just look at one small verse.
Tell me how you would explain Romans 6:23 to a seeker.

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Why is the wages of sin death?
Because sin is the reason for death.
Which then brings up the question of where did sin originate from?
It came from one man, Adam.
Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned-
Then we are looking at Adam, and where is Adam in the Bible? Genesis which brings us to creation, but Adam is also mentioned a few times in the New Testament as a real person. Not as an allegory or as a parable.

When that seeker believes death is simply the natural way of things, that this is simply the mechanism of life going on for millions of years, how are they going to see the connection between sin and death?

Or we can continue to make the bold assertion that either science or God is lying to us, as if they were mutually exclusive, therefore you must choose one and reject the other. That I think is a mistake because truth is in both.

True science is when an experiment can be observed and repeated. Nobody was there to see creation. All you can observe is how things act now, in the present. God created the earth with one set of laws, those changed at the fall and changed again at the flood and in a small way changed at the Tower of Babel. They are not testing the world that God created, that world was destroyed. Also, that world, the core and land surrounding it was created before God created time, before day 1. That alone could have all kinds of effects that we can only imagine.

WonbyOneanddone · Nov 1, 2020

Brightmoon said:
One correction, the Cambrian explosion was about the spread of hard shelled animals during the Cambrian. Life had already been on the planet for about 3 billion years before that happened. Why do creationists always focus on the Cambrian explosion which happened over a period of at least 10 million years anyway. They take the explosion part too literally.

So why do you then think that scientists used the term "Explosion'? I didn't give it that name. I think the reason is that it is because in terms of cosmologic passages of time, or even geologic passages of time, it is considered an explosion. And in terms of the perspective of God, it is less than the blinking of an eye

WonbyOneanddone · Nov 1, 2020

coffee4u said:
I think you meant to say "when I was led to believe" because I certainly don't.

"how did life explode into existence"

11 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

20 Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living e]">[e]creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the f]">[f]firmament of the heavens.” 21 So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind”; and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

It's right there for us to read, no mystery whatsoever.

I don't insist it never happened because of timing, I know it didn't happen because God says he created in 6 days.
Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them,
How much more plain do you need it to be?

I have no need to explain it the way science says because they are wrong, 100% wrong. If they are right then you may as well throw your Bible and your faith away because the gospel crumbles without it. You seem to think the argument is over creation vs evolution, it isn't, that is just the surface appearance. What it is really about is the doctrine of original sin- that is how and where and why sin came to be and why it took a perfect sinless death to overcome it.
This is the crux of the argument -sin and redemption of sin. This is why us creationsist are all so fired up, because it directly affects the Gospel.

That would be a terrible way to share the faith.

Creation is woven throughout scripture in tiny details. Lets just look at one small verse.
Tell me how you would explain Romans 6:23 to a seeker.

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Why is the wages of sin death?
Because sin is the reason for death.
Which then brings up the question of where did sin originate from?
It came from one man, Adam.
Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned-
Then we are looking at Adam, and where is Adam in the Bible? Genesis which brings us to creation, but Adam is also mentioned a few times in the New Testament as a real person. Not as an allegory or as a parable.

When that seeker believes death is simply the natural way of things, that this is simply the mechanism of life going on for millions of years, how are they going to see the connection between sin and death?

True science is when an experiment can be observed and repeated. Nobody was there to see creation. All you can observe is how things act now, in the present. God created the earth with one set of laws, those changed at the fall and changed again at the flood and in a small way changed at the Tower of Babel. They are not testing the world that God created, that world was destroyed. Also, that world, the core and land surrounding it was created before God created time, before day 1. That alone could have all kinds of effects that we can only imagine.

“But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day” (2 Peter 3:8)

Time is relative. Science will tell you that, and the Bible tells you that. Wow, they agree again!

Verbiage in the Hebrew describing the passage of time before Adam and Eve are created is different than after. Why is that? I think these are clues as to what actually is going on here.

Time is not a constant. When you say a million years, what does that mean exactly since time passes differently in every nook and cranny in the universe?

Do you have any idea how time can be warped? I'll try to explain. This has been done, get two identical clocks and start them. One clock you leave in place and the other clock is put in a plane traveling hundreds of miles an hour that goes around the world. When the plane returns you then hold up the clocks side by side and the one clock that has been on the plane will be had less time that had passed than the one that was stationary. Why? It is because time was warped by the speed of the plane.

Now picture the universe as it is today. It is not only expanding, it is accelerating. This has been going on since the first day. So how has time been warped over that time as everything is accelerating into oblivion?

The Barbarian · Nov 1, 2020

WonbyOneanddone said:
As a Christian, the mere fact that there was an "explosion" of life via the Cambrian Explosion should excite you. After all, how did life explode into existence when we are all led to believe that the formation of life is some slow dreary process via evolution.

The Cambrian explosion was a "sudden" (over perhaps ten million years) diversification of living things into many, many new forms. This coincided with the evolution of full body exoskeletons, which seems to be the cause of the diversification. There were complex animals long before the Cambrian, but in a relatively short time, most of the modern phyla appeared in the Cambrian.

The Barbarian · Nov 1, 2020

coffee4u said:
I see creation Brightmoon, I see grass and trees, animals, rocks and people.

Brightmoon · Nov 1, 2020

You see Creation? So do scientists..... in great detail ! Would you count the hairs on a fruit fly’s belly? Examine rock dust under vacuum to understand electrostatic attraction ? Details ! This is why they know more about Nature than you do . They do the first to understand speciation in related genera, the second to see how planets form in space . Details that you don’t understand and you tend to mock and /or deny because you and your fellow creationists don’t want to understand .

And another detail just to get it straight BLM wants to stop extra judicial murders by the police . That’s their real goal..... in this case that a few of the founders were Marxists is irrelevant. By way any time some American politician wants to discredit a political rival or protest group they stick that communist/socialist/Marxist/ terrorist label on them whether it’s true or not . It always happens to Black protest groups. They called MLK a communist back in the day!

coffee4u · Nov 1, 2020

WonbyOneanddone said:
“But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day” (2 Peter 3:8)

Time is relative. Science will tell you that, and the Bible tells you that. Wow, they agree again!

Verbiage in the Hebrew describing the passage of time before Adam and Eve are created is different than after. Why is that? I think these are clues as to what actually is going on here.

Time is not a constant. When you say a million years, what does that mean exactly since time passes differently in every nook and cranny in the universe?

Do you have any idea how time can be warped? I'll try to explain. This has been done, get two identical clocks and start them. One clock you leave in place and the other clock is put in a plane traveling hundreds of miles an hour that goes around the world. When the plane returns you then hold up the clocks side by side and the one clock that has been on the plane will be had less time that had passed than the one that was stationary. Why? It is because time was warped by the speed of the plane.

Now picture the universe as it is today. It is not only expanding, it is accelerating. This has been going on since the first day. So how has time been warped over that time as everything is accelerating into oblivion?

Yet after saying that, you turn around and agree to the time frame given by science. If time is relative then they can't measure it at all, which is exactly what I have been saying. That their measurements are faulty and mean nothing.

Also, you skipped over the questions and what the real issue here is-original sin and the Gospel.

WonbyOneanddone · Nov 1, 2020

Brightmoon said:
You see Creation? So do scientists..... in great detail ! Would you count the hairs on a fruit fly’s belly? Examine rock dust under vacuum to understand electrostatic attraction ? Details ! This is why they know more about Nature than you do . They do the first to understand speciation in related genera, the second to see how planets form in space . Details that you don’t understand and you tend to mock and /or deny because you and your fellow creationists don’t want to understand .

And another detail just to get it straight BLM wants to stop extra judicial murders by the police . That’s their real goal..... in this case that a few of the founders were Marxists is irrelevant. By way any time some American politician wants to discredit a political rival or protest group they stick that communist/socialist/Marxist/ terrorist label on them whether it’s true or not . It always happens to Black protest groups. They called MLK a communist back in the day!

The fact that ALL of their founders of BLM are Marxist is irrelevant?

What if they were Nazis? Would it still be irrelevant? Of course not, but why the double standard? After all, Stalin murdered many more than Hitler and the ideology of Marxism has murdered millions last century, many more than Nazism ever did. And the Left wing ideology seems to infiltrate and subvert other governments with alarming ease. Did I even mention that the Nazi regime even self identified as socialist?

I suppose genocide and murder based upon targeting political opponents is much more palatable than doing it based on a persons race and the fact that the world defeated the Nazi regime while allying with Marxists to do it is why it is PC to be a Marxist but not a Nazi.

Whatever floats your boat.

WonbyOneanddone · Nov 1, 2020

coffee4u said:
Yet after saying that, you turn around and agree to the time frame given by science. If time is relative then they can't measure it at all, which is exactly what I have been saying. That their measurements are faulty and mean nothing.

Also, you skipped over the questions and what the real issue here is-original sin and the Gospel.

I was brought up in the church believing that carbon dating is why scientists think that the earth is billions of years old, and they informed me of some of the possible ways carbon dating may be false. But I later found out that scientist have other ways of measuring the age of creation as well.

"The age of the universe has been measured using a variety of independent technological systems, including radioactive dating, Doppler shifts in starlight, and the isotropic "3 degrees above zero" radiation background. The methods of these studies are totally unrelated. Therefore, an error that might have occurred in one would not appear in the others"

The odds of them all being wrong pointing to the same time frame is highly unlikely, but believe what you will.

Again, I'm not arguing with the veracity of scripture, rather, just questioning some of the interpretations of scripture. I've interpreted other things wrong in the past and I'm sure you have as well.

coffee4u · Nov 1, 2020

WonbyOneanddone said:
I was brought up in the church believing that carbon dating is why scientists think that the earth is billions of years old, and they informed me of some of the possible ways carbon dating may be false. But I later found out that scientist have other ways of measuring the age of creation as well.

What a sad church.

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

AV1611VET · Nov 2, 2020

WonbyOneanddone said:
I highly recommend a book called "Genesis and the Big Bang" by Gerald Schroeder. In it, he helps reconcile science and the Bible regarding how everything came to be.

God did not use science during the Creation Week.

The Creation Week was a series of miracles that raised the level of mass/energy in the universe from zero to what it is today.

Any attempts to shoehorn science into Genesis 1 is like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

Brightmoon · Nov 2, 2020

As far as the age of the earth is concerned, there are about 26 ways of measuring how old a geological layer is . Carbon dating is one of many and it’s only useful for about theoretically 50,000 years and practically 40,000 years . The earth is about 5 billion years old and life has been here for 3.8 billion years. I cracks me up to hear ignorant people spout off about the Cambrian explosion starting life when the Cambrian happened only about 600 million years ago. What happened to the other 3 billion years of life ?

AV1611VET · Nov 2, 2020

WonbyOneanddone said:
Being a physicist, he even came up with his own theory of the days mentioned in the Bible as it correlates to how we perceive time today. The universe is some 15 billion years old according to science, and he theorizes that with each day in Genesis, time halved. In other words, day one was 8 billion years, day two was 4 billion years, day three was 2 billion years, day four was 1 billion years, day five was 500 million years, etc. The key here is understanding that time is not constant. Depending where you are in the universe, time passes differently and is effected by such things as acceleration that warps time and space.

How does Mr. Schroeder explain angiosperms existing for two billion years without the sun?

Genesis 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

Recommended book on Creation

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