Are you saved because you believe? Or do you believe because you are saved?

klutedavid said:

Not from Romans 3:10 it doesn't.

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It was a quote of Psalms 14 and Psalms 53.

klutedavid said:

Not sure if that is true, I have personally known, a lot of people who no longer believe in Jesus.

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Ephesians 4 Paul warns people who are sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption of turning back to a sinful way of life and grieving Him.

“Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:30‬ ‭NASB

Being sealed with the Holy Spirit doesn’t guarantee salvation it’s walking in cooperation with the Spirit that will guarantee salvation. A person can continuously grieve the Spirit and lose the salvation they would’ve receive had they remained faithful to God. The Holy Spirit remains with the person because you never lose the knowledge you have received from Him but you also never lose the ability to choose to reject God and turn back towards sin. Being a Christian is not a one time event it’s a Way of life.

klutedavid said:

Conviction of sin does not save anyone. A person must believe in Jesus Christ to be saved.

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Amen just because the Holy Spirit is still urging a person to repent doesn’t mean they will or that they are saved regardless of their repentance. Cooperation with the Spirit is vital to salvation. We must abide in Christ in order to receive eternal life.

Mark Quayle said:

You seem to think Calvinists don't believe the lost have any ability to choose; not so-- Calvinist believe the lost choose to work against God all day long.

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That’s not what Calvin’s doctrine of total depravity teaches. Total depravity teaches that man is incapable of repentance not that they are unwilling. Some choose to say that they are incapable of being willing to repent which is still the exact same thing. Incapable means it’s impossible for them to accomplish whether it’s impossible for them to be willing to repent or impossible for them to repent it’s still something they are incapable of doing either way which makes God’s punishment for failure to comply unjust. You can’t rightly punish someone for failing to meet impossible expectations or for failing to accomplish an impossible task. We are held responsible for our actions because we have the ability to choose to do both good and evil.

Spiritual Jew said:

This is a typical Calvinist answer. As soon as you get challenged and don't have an answer you resort to insults and do not even attempt to answer the challenge. Why won't you answer his question?

What is your interpretation of the following passage:

Hebrews 3:12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15 As has just been said: “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion.

How does the concept of someone turning away from God fit in the Calvinist doctrine? In that doctrine God determines everything when it comes to salvation. So, why would there be any concern about someone turning away from God if it's all up to God as to whether they believe in Christ or not?

If it was all up to God and man doesn't have free will then there would be no point in warning people about being careful not to turn away from God since they would have no control over that in that case.

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typical pelagian response.

judas is an example he was never saved.

next.................

John Mullally said:

I used Faith A and Faith B for the sake of argument, to show my reasoning, upon your request. Your response is to say someone "coming to Christ on his own accord (Faith B)" is not "coming to Christ at all" - so in other words when someone does X on his own accord, he is not doing X at all.

The closest thing to a discussion of Faith B I could find in the New Testament is 1 John 2:19 - but that is vague.

In 2 Peter 2, the false teachers were said to have had saving faith.

2 Peter 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.​

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Maybe I should have put the quote marks like so: "X" is not X. It may be called X, but it is not. Thus, a person "coming to Christ" on his own accord, is not coming to Christ at all. "The bed is too short, the blanket too narrow..."(Isaiah 28:20). I have certainly proved to myself that even my best efforts are not worth counting on, but more, we have the witness of Scripture that the lost cannot come to Christ until he enables them.

I don't see how in 2 Peter 2:20 "...after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ..." demonstrates saving faith. To me, that sounds like the Pharisees' attendance to the law, and reaping certain benefits by it, nothing more.

BNR32FAN said:

That’s not what Calvin’s doctrine of total depravity teaches. Total depravity teaches that man is incapable of repentance not that they are unwilling. Some choose to say that they are incapable of being willing to repent which is still the exact same thing. Incapable means it’s impossible for them to accomplish whether it’s impossible for them to be willing to repent or impossible for them to repent it’s still something they are incapable of doing either way which makes God’s punishment for failure to comply unjust. You can’t rightly punish someone for failing to meet impossible expectations or for failing to accomplish an impossible task. We are held responsible for our actions because we have the ability to choose to do both good and evil.

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Total Depravity teaches that man is incapable, because his heart is turned away from God --i.e. unwilling. Remember that God looks on the heart to judge the deeds. If man is unwilling (and the lost most definitely are unwilling), his heart has rejected God, and remains at enmity with God, and his degree of condemnation is appropriate. Remember also, what it says in John 3:18, that one is already condemned who does not believe. It does not say that each offer of salvation rejected is a new sin, (for which after your logic he is unjustly condemned).

Dave L said:

Jesus said; “Those who believe in the Son have eternal life, but those who do not obey the Son will never have life. God’s anger stays on them.” John 3:36 (NCV)

Eternal life is without beginning or end, just as God is eternal. This would mean whom he regenerates with his Spirit was saved eternally in God's mind and plan.

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Praise God so that means all are eternally saved then! Because God is willing that all be saved, He's not double minded that some are eternally saved and some aren't.

God has shown His side on the matter. It's up to everyone what they will choose to do.

“And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?” John 11:26 (KJV 1900)

So is believing in Christ God's fruit of salvation that tells you he saved you? Or is it a law you must obey in the flesh to earn salvation?

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Faith is never a work of the flesh. In John 3:36 it concerns those who believe and those who don't believe.. as a form of rebellion in rejecting salvation through Jesus Christ. Just as there were two groups of men in Acts 28:24 "Some were being persuaded by the things spoken but others would not believe."

Mark Quayle said:

Total Depravity teaches that man is incapable, because his heart is turned away from God --i.e. unwilling. Remember that God looks on the heart to judge the deeds. If man is unwilling (and the lost most definitely are unwilling), his heart has rejected God, and remains at enmity with God, and his degree of condemnation is appropriate. Remember also, what it says in John 3:18, that one is already condemned who does not believe. It does not say that each offer of salvation rejected is a new sin, (for which after your logic he is unjustly condemned).

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Total Depravity.

It teaches that, as a consequence of man's fall, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin as a result of their fallen nature and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is completely unable to choose by themselves to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered. (wikipedia)

Jesus is YHWH said:

typical pelagian response.

judas is an example he was never saved.

next.................

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Spiritual Jew knows what he is talking about. It would pay you to learn from him.
.

RickReads said:

by one Spirit we are all Baptized, what part of that don`t u understand?

What makes you think God would turn the power of salvation over to men?

"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."

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Did you read the few verses before (1Cor.1:17)?

Notice those Paul baptized below.

1Co 1:14 ¶ I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

Does baptism (in water) save? (not baptism alone)

YES, baptism is necessary for salvation according to (Acts 2:38,47 ; 8:5,12,13,26-40 ; 16:30-34 ; 22:16) (Mark 16:15,16) (Jn 3:3-5,23) (1Peter 3:20,21).


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Thanks

Spiritual Jew said:

Not the kind of work that doesn't save us, though. Otherwise, Paul wouldn't have differentiated between faith and works as he did here:

Ephesians 2:8 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

The good works God prepared for us come AFTER we've been saved by grace through faith. They come naturally for us after we're saved because the Holy Spirit reveals to us what God wants us to do and we do those things cheerfully because we love God and want to obey Him.

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Notice how the Ephesians were saved by grace in (Acts 19:1-6).

They were baptized twice in water. (Johns baptism / NT water immersion for the remission of sins)

Noah was also saved by grace in (Gen. 6:8,22).

Ge 6:8 ¶ But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Ge 6:22 ¶ Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.

That is true biblical faith as we see in (Heb. 11)


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RickReads said:

by one Spirit we are all Baptized, what part of that don`t u understand?

What makes you think God would turn the power of salvation over to men?

"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."

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Maybe I am not the one confused.

RickReads said:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

Spirit baptism is the one baptism. The water is a work.

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I see you saying water is a work but do the scriptures say such a thing?

Isn't that what matters?

Speak as the oracles of God... (1Peter 4:11)

Nova2216 said:

Maybe I am not the one confused.

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I think everyone experiences confusion, even the apostles. Everyone struggles through life.

I thought the aim of CF was to reduce that confusion and increase fellowship?

Perhaps I am confused.

Mwhaaaaaaaaaaaa.

Nova2216 said:

I see you saying water is a work but do the scriptures say such a thing?

Isn't that what matters?

Speak as the oracles of God... (1Peter 4:11)

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"they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance."

Nova2216 said:

Did you read the few verses before (1Cor.1:17)?

Notice those Paul baptized below.

1Co 1:14 ¶ I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

Does baptism (in water) save? (not baptism alone)

YES, baptism is necessary for salvation according to (Acts 2:38,47 ; 8:5,12,13,26-40 ; 16:30-34 ; 22:16) (Mark 16:15,16) (Jn 3:3-5,23) (1Peter 3:20,21).


Read more here.
Mission Printing Home Page


Thanks

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Words of the first Baptist.

"I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost."

Nova2216 said:

Did you read the few verses before (1Cor.1:17)?

Notice those Paul baptized below.

1Co 1:14 ¶ I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

Does baptism (in water) save? (not baptism alone)

YES, baptism is necessary for salvation according to (Acts 2:38,47 ; 8:5,12,13,26-40 ; 16:30-34 ; 22:16) (Mark 16:15,16) (Jn 3:3-5,23) (1Peter 3:20,21).


Read more here.
Mission Printing Home Page


Thanks

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Will you believe Jesus?

"For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."

Nova2216 said:

Maybe I am not the one confused.

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Acts 2:38

Nova2216 said:

I see you saying water is a work but do the scriptures say such a thing?

Isn't that what matters?

Speak as the oracles of God... (1Peter 4:11)

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You`re fun.

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