want to talk about OSAS?

1an · Oct 30, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
In addition to showing them the truth with Scripture,
I believe we have to pray for them and be loving and patient with them.

I find it hard to suffer fools gladly, but will try to be patient. :sorry:

I was patient yesterday, I let lots of things slip that were wrong, but it was fast moving.

I cut my teeth on an atheist forum. They were more amenable than on the Christian forums. Sad. This forum has changed since I was first on nine years ago.
.

Jesus is YHWH · Oct 31, 2020

1an said:
I find it hard to suffer fools gladly, but will try to be patient. I was patient yesterday, I let lots of things slip that were wrong, but it was fast moving.

I cut my teeth on an atheist forum. They were more amenable than on the Christian forums. Sad. This forum has changed since I was first on nine years ago.
.

Agreed I've been here since 2010 and became a member in 2011.

Justified_By_Christ_Alone · Oct 31, 2020

This is the perfect section for this thread. The gospel is not only controversial to the unbelieving world, it is also controversial in Christianity! That's how you know it is the truth (OSAS is the gospel).

The fact that majority voted no proves it is true. It proves Jesus is the narrow way. And religion (working to maintain your salvation rather than trusting in his blood alone) is the broad way of religion.

Sometimes I get angry so many self-professing Christians reject the true gospel and believe they must keep their salvation, but then I remember it is exactly what is expected and what Jesus talked about in many not believing the narrow way (Jesus alone) so then I rejoice in being persecuted for the truth. A lot of people hate the truth. But I still pray for them because anyone can come to repentance unto the acknowledging of the truth. I myself will never be ashamed of the gospel.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 1, 2020

Justified_By_Christ_Alone said:
This is the perfect section for this thread. The gospel is not only controversial to the unbelieving world, it is also controversial in Christianity!

Well, I believe the real reason OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) is controversial is because it allows for turning God's grace into a license for immorality.

“For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.” (Jude 1:4) (NIV).

“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Jude 1:4) (KJB).

The King James Bible says “lasciviousness.”

Webster's 1828 Dictionary
Lasciviousness
LASCIV'IOUSNESS, noun

1. Looseness; irregular indulgence of animal desires; wantonness; lustfulness.
Who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lasciviousness Ephesians 4:19.
2. Tendency to excite lust, and promote irregular indulgences.

In other words, Jude 1:4 is saying that there are those who think they can sin and still be saved. For if a person is once saved always saved, then it does not matter how you live. You are saved, no matter what you do. But this is not what God's grace teaches us. Titus 2:11-12 teaches us the true grace of God.

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

So OSAS is not God's message to an unbelieving world or to other Christians who reject it. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). By faith Noah built the ark (Hebrews 11:7). Peter said, “And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;” (2 Peter 2:5-6).

So God brought the flood upon the world during Noah's time because they were ungodly or wicked. What reason did God do this? To make them an example to all those who should live ungodly. But OSAS leads people to think they can live ungodly and be okay because they are Once Saved Always Saved. No need to worry about sin because one has got their golden ticket. There is no need to work out your salvation with fear and trembling as Philippians 2:12 says if OSAS is true.

You said:
That's how you know it is the truth

Again, OSAS makes room for a person to think they can sin and still be saved on some level. The Bible does not teach this. For 1 John 2:4 says,

“He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (1 John 2:4).

You said:
(OSAS is the gospel).

OSAS is not the gospel. The gospel is this:

“Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:” (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

While we stand on the gospel (by which we are saved), we also have to enter the Sanctification Process as a part of salvation, as well. For Paul says,

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Note: If you were to look at the verses before and after, it supports the idea that the sanctification that is being talked about here is good works and or living holy. Don't believe me? Just check the verses for yourself.

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live” (Romans 8:13).

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

You said:
The fact that majority voted no proves it is true.

I believe the Bible teaches Sola Scriptura (i.e. the Bible is our ultimate final authority on matters of spiritual truth). However, there just so happens to be lot of Orthodox, Catholic, and Pentecostal on this website. It does not mean that this forum is a general census taken by all Christians world wide. Catholic and Orthodox are not Sola Scriptura, and Pentecostal appears to be split on this issue. If you want to look at only Sola Scriptura churches only, then this would be Protestant churches (not counting Pentecostal churches). The majority of Sola Scriptura Protestant churches teaches and believes in OSAS.

Catholicism – 1.329 billion
Protestantism – 900 million

List of Christian denominations by number of members - Wikipedia

Protestantism is the 2nd largest branch of Christianity. It gets a lot of things right, but I believe it drops the ball when it comes to Soteriology. In fact, most churches I have attended that were Protestant taught OSAS. Just pick up a phone book and start calling around, and you will see there are tons of Protestant churches in your area and most of them all teach OSAS. Most Christian movies teach OSAS. So yeah, OSAS is not the narrow way.

You said:
It proves Jesus is the narrow way.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6). But Jesus cannot agree with our sin (Which is what OSAS makes room for). In fact, if you were to look at the context of when Jesus talked about the narrow way (Matthew 7:14), we learn that our Lord talks about how He told certain believers who did wonderful works in His name at the judgment to depart from Him because they also worked iniquity (sin), too (See: Matthew 7:23). For Jesus said that everyone who does not do what He says is like a fool who built His house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (See: Matthew 7:26-27).

You said:
And religion (working to maintain your salvation rather than trusting in his blood alone) is the broad way of religion.

But the Bible tells us that we have to walk in the light as He is in the light so that the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7).

Walking in the light is loving your brother according to the use of indirect wording used in 1 John 2:9-11. So you have to love your brother in order to have the blood of Jesus Christ cleanse of all sin, too. It's not a walk in the park. You have to fight the good of faith. You have to keep yourself in the love of God. You have to put on the whole armor of God.

The Bible teaches that after we are saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and the gospel, we have to enter the Sanctification Process (Which includes putting away sin, good works, and living holy). For...

We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).
Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
A person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).
Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love God, and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28).
Those who have done good, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, shall come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29).
We have to continue in His goodness, otherwise we can be cut off [just like the Jews were cut off] (Romans 11:21-22).
Helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to inheriting the Kingdom (Matthew 25:34-40), and not helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to going away into everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:41-46).
Whoever does not righteousness or does not love his brother is not of God (1 John 3:10).
Whoever does what Jesus says is likened unto a wise man who built his house upon the rock, and when a storm came, it did not fall, (Matthew 7:24-25), but the person who does not do what Jesus says is likened unto a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27).
Abiding in Jesus will bear much fruit, but if a person does not abide in Jesus [thereby being unfruitful], they are cast out [or cut off] like a branch to be burned in the fire (John 15:5-6).
If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing (1 Peter 4:18-19).
Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14) (NKJV).

You said:
Sometimes I get angry so many self-professing Christians reject the true gospel and believe they must keep their salvation,

The only reason I believe an OSAS person may get angry at those who speak the truth of God's Word is because they do not understand the condemnation.

“And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.” (John 3:19-21).

You said:
but then I remember it is exactly what is expected and what Jesus talked about in many not believing the narrow way (Jesus alone) so then I rejoice in being persecuted for the truth. A lot of people hate the truth. But I still pray for them because anyone can come to repentance unto the acknowledging of the truth. I myself will never be ashamed of the gospel.

Repentance is seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ, and it is followed by the fruits of repentance (like good deeds, etc.). Jesus said repent or perish (Luke 13:3). Jesus gave us an example of the final result of repentance in Matthew 12:41 by pointing us to Jonah 3:6-10. We learn from this passage that God did not bring wrath upon the Ninevites when He noticed that they forsake their evil and wicked ways.

Truth is more than just having a belief alone in Jesus for salvation, but truth is in God's Word, too (John 17:17). His Word warns us against how sin can destroy our souls.

The Bible teaches that sin can separate us from God from Matthew to Revelation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8).

The Bible teaches that obedience to God's commands is tied to eternal life from Matthew to Revelation (See Matthew 19:17-19) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 3:23) (Hebrews 5:9) (Revelation 22:14).

So things are not as you say, and OSAS is false.

Justified_By_Christ_Alone · Nov 1, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Well, I believe the real reason OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) is controversial is because it allows for turning God's grace into a license for immorality.

“For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.” (Jude 1:4) (NIV).

“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Jude 1:4) (KJB).

The King James Bible says “lasciviousness.”

Webster's 1828 Dictionary
Lasciviousness
LASCIV'IOUSNESS, noun

1. Looseness; irregular indulgence of animal desires; wantonness; lustfulness.
Who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lasciviousness Ephesians 4:19.
2. Tendency to excite lust, and promote irregular indulgences.

In other words, Jude 1:4 is saying that there are those who think they can sin and still be saved. For if a person is once saved always saved, then it does not matter how you live. You are saved, no matter what you do. But this is not what God's grace teaches us. Titus 2:11-12 teaches us the true grace of God.

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

So OSAS is not God's message to an unbelieving world or to other Christians who reject it. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). By faith Noah built the ark (Hebrews 11:7). Peter said, “And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;” (2 Peter 2:5-6).

So God brought the flood upon the world during Noah's time because they were ungodly or wicked. What reason did God do this? To make them an example to all those who should live ungodly. But OSAS leads people to think they can live ungodly and be okay because they are Once Saved Always Saved. No need to worry about sin because one has got their golden ticket. There is no need to work out your salvation with fear and trembling as Philippians 2:12 says if OSAS is true.

Again, OSAS makes room for a person to think they can sin and still be saved on some level. The Bible does not teach this. For 1 John 2:4 says,

“He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (1 John 2:4).

OSAS is not the gospel. The gospel is this:

“Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:” (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

While we stand on the gospel (by which we are saved), we also have to enter the Sanctification Process as a part of salvation, as well. For Paul says,

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Note: If you were to look at the verses before and after, it supports the idea that the sanctification that is being talked about here is good works and or living holy. Don't believe me? Just check the verses for yourself.

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live” (Romans 8:13).

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

I believe the Bible teaches Sola Scriptura (i.e. the Bible is our ultimate final authority on matters of spiritual truth). However, there just so happens to be lot of Orthodox, Catholic, and Pentecostal on this website. It does not mean that this forum is a general census taken by all Christians world wide. Catholic and Orthodox are not Sola Scriptura, and Pentecostal appears to be split on this issue. If you want to look at only Sola Scriptura churches only, then this would be Protestant churches (not counting Pentecostal churches). The majority of Sola Scriptura Protestant churches teaches and believes in OSAS.

Catholicism – 1.329 billion
Protestantism – 900 million

List of Christian denominations by number of members - Wikipedia

Protestantism is the 2nd largest branch of Christianity. It gets a lot of things right, but I believe it drops the ball when it comes to Soteriology. In fact, most churches I have attended that were Protestant taught OSAS. Just pick up a phone book and start calling around, and you will see there are tons of Protestant churches in your area and most of them all teach OSAS. Most Christian movies teach OSAS. So yeah, OSAS is not the narrow way.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6). But Jesus cannot agree with our sin (Which is what OSAS makes room for). In fact, if you were to look at the context of when Jesus talked about the narrow way (Matthew 7:14), we learn that our Lord talks about how He told certain believers who did wonderful works in His name at the judgment to depart from Him because they also worked iniquity (sin), too (See: Matthew 7:23). For Jesus said that everyone who does not do what He says is like a fool who built His house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (See: Matthew 7:26-27).

But the Bible tells us that we have to walk in the light as He is in the light so that the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7).

Walking in the light is loving your brother according to the use of indirect wording used in 1 John 2:9-11. So you have to love your brother in order to have the blood of Jesus Christ cleanse of all sin, too. It's not a walk in the park. You have to fight the good of faith. You have to keep yourself in the love of God. You have to put on the whole armor of God.

The Bible teaches that after we are saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and the gospel, we have to enter the Sanctification Process (Which includes putting away sin, good works, and living holy). For...

We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

A person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).

Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love God, and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28).

Those who have done good, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, shall come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29).

We have to continue in His goodness, otherwise we can be cut off [just like the Jews were cut off] (Romans 11:21-22).

Helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to inheriting the Kingdom (Matthew 25:34-40), and not helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to going away into everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:41-46).

Whoever does not righteousness or does not love his brother is not of God (1 John 3:10).

Whoever does what Jesus says is likened unto a wise man who built his house upon the rock, and when a storm came, it did not fall, (Matthew 7:24-25), but the person who does not do what Jesus says is likened unto a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27).

Abiding in Jesus will bear much fruit, but if a person does not abide in Jesus [thereby being unfruitful], they are cast out [or cut off] like a branch to be burned in the fire (John 15:5-6).

If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing (1 Peter 4:18-19).

Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14) (NKJV).

The only reason I believe an OSAS person may get angry at those who speak the truth of God's Word is because they do not understand the condemnation.

“And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.” (John 3:19-21).

Repentance is seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ, and it is followed by the fruits of repentance (like good deeds, etc.). Jesus said repent or perish (Luke 13:3). Jesus gave us an example of repentance in Matthew 12:41 by pointing us to Jonah 3:6-10. We learn from this passage that God did not bring wrath upon the Ninevites when He noticed that they forsake their evil and wicked ways.

Truth is more than just having a belief alone in Jesus for salvation, but truth is in God's Word, too (John 17:17). His Word warns us against how sin can destroy our souls.

The Bible teaches that sin can separate us from God from Matthew to Revelation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8).

The Bible teaches that obedience to God's commands is tied to eternal life from Matthew to Revelation (See Matthew 19:17-19) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 3:23) (Hebrews 5:9) (Revelation 22:14).

So things are not as you say, and OSAS is false.

Actually if you think the gospel (OSAS) means promoting sin that proves you haven't been regenerated and still have a carnal mind... It also proves you are prideful and that you think the gospel isn't fair. That is your problem you think that, you are the one turning the grace of God into lasciviousness by even suggesting such a thing, you are the one who has a problem and is mad about people "making room for sin" when we simply believe the gospel that you think is unfair because you are so prideful. You are on the broad road of religion. OSAS is the gospel, it is the blood of Jesus ALONE that paid for sins. Sins were paid for on the cross 2000 years ago and you refuse to believe it. You have no right to change the gospel just because you are prideful and scared people will use it as a "license to sin". The gospel remains unchanged, OSAS remains unchanged, and I am not ashamed of it nor ever will be. We will see if you are ashamed of OASAS when you meet Christ on judgement day... The only ones turning the grace of God into lasciviousness are religious Pharisees and people like you (not just you only, but many people reject OSAS for the reason you said, and are therefore turning the grace of God into lasciviousness because they are religious Pharisees themselves with a carnal mind who don't understand grace). I will never stop defending the real gospel. And you will see how severely wrong you are on judgement day.

You are on the broad way. Those who reject OSAS (for the reasons you stated) are religious, and they are on the broad way leading to hell. This thread only proves it, re-confirms OSAS being the truth.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 1, 2020

Justified_By_Christ_Alone said:
Actually if you think the gospel (OSAS) means promoting sin that proves you haven't been regenerated and still have a carnal mind... It also proves you are prideful and that you think the gospel isn't fair. That is your problem you think that, you are the one turning the grace of God into lasciviousness by even suggesting such a thing, you are the one who has a problem and is mad about people "making room for sin" when we simply believe the gospel that you think is unfair because you are so prideful. You are on the broad road of religion. OSAS is the gospel, it is the blood of Jesus ALONE that paid for sins. Sins were paid for on the cross 2000 years ago and you refuse to believe it. You have no right to change the gospel just because you are prideful and scared people will use it as a "license to sin". The gospel remains unchanged, OSAS remains unchanged, and I am not ashamed of it nor ever will be. We will see if you are ashamed of OASAS when you meet Christ on judgement day... The only ones turning the grace of God into lasciviousness are religious Pharisees and people like you (not just you only, but many people reject OSAS for the reason you said, and are therefore turning the grace of God into lasciviousness because they are religious Pharisees themselves with a carnal mind who don't understand grace). I will never stop defending the real gospel. And you will see how severely wrong you are on judgement day.

You are on the broad way. Those who reject OSAS (for the reasons you stated) are religious, and they are on the broad way leading to hell. This thread only proves it, re-confirms OSAS being the truth.

Notice how you did not even address any of the verses I put forth, but instead you attacked my character. That is all you have. Make it about me, and not about the Scriptures. Yes, we will see for sure on judgment day what we will happen for sure, but we can already get a glimpse of what will happen on judgment day based on the words of Jesus Himself (of which does not look good for OSAS or Belief Alone-ism). Jesus said to those believers who did wonderful works in His name to depart from Him because they also worked iniquity (See: Matthew 7:23). Iniquity is sin. Jesus drives home the point even more by saying in Matthew 7:26-27 that everyone who does not do what He says is like a fool who built His house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house. So our Lord's point was not one can just believe alone to be saved or OSAS.

Guojing · Nov 1, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Notice how you did not even address any of the verses I put forth, but instead you attacked my character. That is all you have. Make it about me, and not about the Scriptures. Yes, we will see for sure on judgment day what we will happen for sure, but we can already get a glimpse of what will happen on judgment day based on the words of Jesus Himself (of which does not look good for OSAS or Belief Alone-ism). Jesus said to those believers who did wonderful works in His name to depart from Him because they also worked iniquity (See: Matthew 7:23). Iniquity is sin. Jesus drives home the point even more by saying in Matthew 7:26-27 that everyone who does not do what He says is like a fool who built His house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house. So our Lord's point was not one can just believe alone to be saved.

Do you think Jesus was preaching the law to Israel, before the cross?

after the cross, did anything change?

Bible Highlighter · Nov 1, 2020

Guojing said:
Do you think Jesus was preaching the law to Israel, before the cross?

I believe Jesus primarily preached and or taught New Covenant (or New Testament) commandments and not Old Testament commandments. For example: While He did support the Old Law like in Matthew 5:24, we know that animal sacrifices are no longer a part of the New Covenant (or New Testament). The New Covenant began officially with Christ's death.

You said:
after the cross, did anything change?

Absolutely. Colossians 2:16-17 makes it clear that we are not to let others judge us in regards to matters of the sabbaths, holy days, and or dietary laws. But of course you believe that the Saturday Sabbath still applies under the New Covenant (When it does not clearly teach such a thing). Verses have to be taken out of context in the New Testament to make that idea true. When Paul lists sins that will cause one not to inherit the kingdom of God, he does not list Sabbath breaking among such sins such as murder, adultery, theft, idolatry, and drunkenness, etc.; Neither is the same true for any other apostle in their writings in the New Testament (or New Covenant). One has to do backflip twists with the text to make that so. There are other changes in the New Testament. There is Christ's teaching of Non-Resistance, and the New Covenant teaching on chasing after righteousness instead of riches. There is the new command in loving your brother in the same way that Christ loved the brethren. There are many other new commands that are unique to the New Covenant. But again, the ceremonial laws (like the Saturday Sabbath) have not carried over into the New Covenant. Unfortunately some folks still like the old ways instead of the new;

I believe Jesus today would say to them,
“No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new:
for he saith, The old is better.” (Luke 5:39).

Guojing · Nov 1, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
I believe Jesus primarily preached and or taught New Covenant (or New Testament) commandments and not Old Testament commandments. For example: While He did support the Old Law like in Matthew 5:24, we know that animal sacrifices are no longer a part of the New Covenant (or New Testament). The New Covenant began officially with Christ's death.

Absolutely. Colossians 2:16-17 makes it clear that we are not to let others judge us in regards to matters of the sabbaths, holy days, and or dietary laws. But of course you believe that the Saturday Sabbath still applies under the New Covenant (When it does not clearly teach such a thing). Verses have to be taken out of context in the New Testament to make that idea true. When Paul lists sins that will cause one not to inherit the kingdom of God, he does not list Sabbath breaking among such sins such as murder, adultery, theft, idolatry, and drunkenness, etc.; Neither is the same true for any other apostle in their writings in the New Testament (or New Covenant). One has to do backflip twists with the text to make that so. There are other changes in the New Testament. There is Christ's teaching of Non-Resistance, and the New Covenant teaching on chasing after righteousness instead of riches. There is the new command in loving your brother in the same way that Christ loved the brethren. There are many other new commands that are unique to the New Covenant. But again, the ceremonial laws (like the Saturday Sabbath) have not carried over into the New Covenant. Unfortunately some folks still like the old ways instead of the new;

I believe Jesus today would say to them,
“No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new:
for he saith, The old is better.” (Luke 5:39).

So is your answer to me question a no? Jesus was not preaching the law of Moses before the cross?

Bible Highlighter · Nov 1, 2020

Guojing said:
So is your answer to me question a no? Jesus was not preaching the law of Moses before the cross?

I believe your question is loaded. For example: It would be like asking the questions: Do you like the green cats that breath fire? Or do you like the purple cats that can fly? In other words, you are making an inference that does not exist by your question. By the question, it suggests that Jesus taught primarily the Old Law when this is not the case. So while Jesus did teach that certain OT laws were still applicable before the cross, on the other hand, Jesus was also making changes to the Law, as well. Here is a list to that shows forth this truth in Scripture.

Jesus clearly was making changes to the Law (even before the cross):
(Which means He was not teaching primarily Old Covenant, but New Covenant):

The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"
(Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39).

The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21 cf. Numbers 35:30-32).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).

The Old Way says:
"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:" (Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
34 "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37).

The Old Way says:
"And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant." (Psalms 143:12).

"And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent." (Joshua 6:17).

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21).

16 "But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

"They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them" (Psalms 106:34).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44).

Note: Yes, I am aware that the Old Way (Old Testament) also teaches to love one's enemies (Exodus 23:4-5) (Proverbs 25:21), but this was in context to their own Israelite people, and not pagan nations. Pagan nations were to be destroyed when God commanded the Israelites to destroy them. But Jesus taught a radically different way. Love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you, and to pray for those who persecute you.

The Old Way says:
20 "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:20-22).

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?" (John 8:4-5).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. " (John 8:7).

Even after the cross, there were changes being made:

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
(Galatians 5:2).

The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because again, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
(Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
(John 1:17).

Jesus said,
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17).

Jesus came not to abolish the Law (in the sense of destroying all forms of Law), but Jesus came to fulfill the Law (i.e. to nail to the cross those ordinances that were against us [like the Old Covenant ceremonial laws], and Jesus came to give us a more fulfilled and perfect way of obeying God via the commands that come directly from Him and His followers). For Jesus offered a more perfect way of loving God, and loving our neighbor (Which of course is only possible via if we are first saved by God's grace through faith).

Guojing · Nov 1, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
You are making an inference that does not exist by your question. By the question, it suggests that Jesus taught primarily the Old Law when this is not the case. So while Jesus did teach that certain OT laws were still applicable before the cross, on the other hand, Jesus was also making changes to the Law, as well. Here is a list to that shows forth this truth in Scripture.

Jesus clearly was making changes to the Law (even before the cross):
(Which means He was not teaching primarily Old Covenant, but New Covenant):

The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"
(Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39).

The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21 cf. Numbers 35:30-32).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).

The Old Way says:
"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:" (Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
34 "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37).

The Old Way says:
"And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant." (Psalms 143:12).

"And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent." (Joshua 6:17).

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21).

16 "But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

"They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them" (Psalms 106:34).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44).

Note: Yes, I am aware that the Old Way (Old Testament) also teaches to love one's enemies (Exodus 23:4-5) (Proverbs 25:21), but this was in context to their own Israelite people, and not pagan nations. Pagan nations were to be destroyed when God commanded the Israelites to destroy them. But Jesus taught a radically different way. Love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you, and to pray for those who persecute you.

The Old Way says:
20 "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:20-22).

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?" (John 8:4-5).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. " (John 8:7).

Even after the cross, there were changes being made:

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
(Galatians 5:2).

The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because again, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
(Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
(John 1:17).

Jesus said,
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17).

Jesus came not to abolish the Law (in the sense of destroying all forms of Law), but Jesus came to fulfill the Law (i.e. to nail to the cross those ordinances that were against us [like the Old Covenant ceremonial laws], and Jesus came to give us a more fulfilled and perfect way of obeying God via the commands that come directly from Him and His followers). For Jesus offered a more perfect way of loving God, and loving our neighbor (Which of course is only possible via if we are first saved by God's grace through faith).

Yes Jesus was teaching Israel what the law of Moses really meant in the eyes of God, instead of the watered down version the Pharisees were using.

But that is still preaching the law of Moses. As you said, the new covenant could only begin after he shed his blood at the cross, as Hebrews stated.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 1, 2020

Guojing said:
Yes Jesus was teaching Israel what the law of Moses really meant in the eyes of God, instead of the watered down version the Pharisees were using.

But that is still preaching the law of Moses. As you said, the new covenant could only begin after he shed his blood at the cross, as Hebrews stated.

You are making it more than what He made it out to be. Jesus clearly was making changes to the Law before the cross as I have demonstrated in my previous post (with Scripture) to you.

Psalm 27 · Jan 13, 2022

Just read this, and although I've been back and forth, I thought 'osas can't be true'
2 Peter 2:19-22
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage.
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

Der Alte · Jan 13, 2022

To Whom it May Concern.
My view of OSAS.

Hebrews 10:26-31
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, [i.e. "sanctified" c.f. vs. 29] there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, [c.f. vs. 26] an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

This passage describes a fate worse than death.

returntosender · Jan 13, 2022

1an said:
I find it hard to suffer fools gladly, but will try to be patient. I was patient yesterday, I let lots of things slip that were wrong, but it was fast moving.

I cut my teeth on an atheist forum. They were more amenable than on the Christian forums. Sad. This forum has changed since I was first on nine years ago.
.

Give me a break!

returntosender · Jan 13, 2022

Bible Highlighter said:
Well, I believe the real reason OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) is controversial is because it allows for turning God's grace into a license for immorality.

“For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.” (Jude 1:4) (NIV).

“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Jude 1:4) (KJB).

The King James Bible says “lasciviousness.”

Webster's 1828 Dictionary
Lasciviousness
LASCIV'IOUSNESS, noun

1. Looseness; irregular indulgence of animal desires; wantonness; lustfulness.
Who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lasciviousness Ephesians 4:19.
2. Tendency to excite lust, and promote irregular indulgences.

In other words, Jude 1:4 is saying that there are those who think they can sin and still be saved. For if a person is once saved always saved, then it does not matter how you live. You are saved, no matter what you do. But this is not what God's grace teaches us. Titus 2:11-12 teaches us the true grace of God.

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

So OSAS is not God's message to an unbelieving world or to other Christians who reject it. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). By faith Noah built the ark (Hebrews 11:7). Peter said, “And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;” (2 Peter 2:5-6).

So God brought the flood upon the world during Noah's time because they were ungodly or wicked. What reason did God do this? To make them an example to all those who should live ungodly. But OSAS leads people to think they can live ungodly and be okay because they are Once Saved Always Saved. No need to worry about sin because one has got their golden ticket. There is no need to work out your salvation with fear and trembling as Philippians 2:12 says if OSAS is true.

Again, OSAS makes room for a person to think they can sin and still be saved on some level. The Bible does not teach this. For 1 John 2:4 says,

“He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (1 John 2:4).

OSAS is not the gospel. The gospel is this:

“Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:” (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

While we stand on the gospel (by which we are saved), we also have to enter the Sanctification Process as a part of salvation, as well. For Paul says,

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Note: If you were to look at the verses before and after, it supports the idea that the sanctification that is being talked about here is good works and or living holy. Don't believe me? Just check the verses for yourself.

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live” (Romans 8:13).

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

I believe the Bible teaches Sola Scriptura (i.e. the Bible is our ultimate final authority on matters of spiritual truth). However, there just so happens to be lot of Orthodox, Catholic, and Pentecostal on this website. It does not mean that this forum is a general census taken by all Christians world wide. Catholic and Orthodox are not Sola Scriptura, and Pentecostal appears to be split on this issue. If you want to look at only Sola Scriptura churches only, then this would be Protestant churches (not counting Pentecostal churches). The majority of Sola Scriptura Protestant churches teaches and believes in OSAS.

Catholicism – 1.329 billion
Protestantism – 900 million

List of Christian denominations by number of members - Wikipedia

Protestantism is the 2nd largest branch of Christianity. It gets a lot of things right, but I believe it drops the ball when it comes to Soteriology. In fact, most churches I have attended that were Protestant taught OSAS. Just pick up a phone book and start calling around, and you will see there are tons of Protestant churches in your area and most of them all teach OSAS. Most Christian movies teach OSAS. So yeah, OSAS is not the narrow way.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6). But Jesus cannot agree with our sin (Which is what OSAS makes room for). In fact, if you were to look at the context of when Jesus talked about the narrow way (Matthew 7:14), we learn that our Lord talks about how He told certain believers who did wonderful works in His name at the judgment to depart from Him because they also worked iniquity (sin), too (See: Matthew 7:23). For Jesus said that everyone who does not do what He says is like a fool who built His house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (See: Matthew 7:26-27).

But the Bible tells us that we have to walk in the light as He is in the light so that the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7).

Walking in the light is loving your brother according to the use of indirect wording used in 1 John 2:9-11. So you have to love your brother in order to have the blood of Jesus Christ cleanse of all sin, too. It's not a walk in the park. You have to fight the good of faith. You have to keep yourself in the love of God. You have to put on the whole armor of God.

The Bible teaches that after we are saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and the gospel, we have to enter the Sanctification Process (Which includes putting away sin, good works, and living holy). For...

We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

A person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).

Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love God, and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28).

Those who have done good, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, shall come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29).

We have to continue in His goodness, otherwise we can be cut off [just like the Jews were cut off] (Romans 11:21-22).

Helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to inheriting the Kingdom (Matthew 25:34-40), and not helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to going away into everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:41-46).

Whoever does not righteousness or does not love his brother is not of God (1 John 3:10).

Whoever does what Jesus says is likened unto a wise man who built his house upon the rock, and when a storm came, it did not fall, (Matthew 7:24-25), but the person who does not do what Jesus says is likened unto a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27).

Abiding in Jesus will bear much fruit, but if a person does not abide in Jesus [thereby being unfruitful], they are cast out [or cut off] like a branch to be burned in the fire (John 15:5-6).

If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing (1 Peter 4:18-19).

Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14) (NKJV).

The only reason I believe an OSAS person may get angry at those who speak the truth of God's Word is because they do not understand the condemnation.

“And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.” (John 3:19-21).

Repentance is seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ, and it is followed by the fruits of repentance (like good deeds, etc.). Jesus said repent or perish (Luke 13:3). Jesus gave us an example of the final result of repentance in Matthew 12:41 by pointing us to Jonah 3:6-10. We learn from this passage that God did not bring wrath upon the Ninevites when He noticed that they forsake their evil and wicked ways.

Truth is more than just having a belief alone in Jesus for salvation, but truth is in God's Word, too (John 17:17). His Word warns us against how sin can destroy our souls.

The Bible teaches that sin can separate us from God from Matthew to Revelation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8).

The Bible teaches that obedience to God's commands is tied to eternal life from Matthew to Revelation (See Matthew 19:17-19) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 3:23) (Hebrews 5:9) (Revelation 22:14).

So things are not as you say, and OSAS is false.

That's so wrong. True Christian's wouldn't take advantage of it to sin.
Jesus died for us ONCE and for all. Your beliefs would hang him high Everytime we sin. Poor Jesus.

Psalm 27 · Jan 13, 2022

Jesus said "Go and sin no more"

Bible Highlighter · Jan 13, 2022

returntosender said:
That's so wrong. True Christian's wouldn't take advantage of it to sin.
Jesus died for us ONCE and for all. Your beliefs would hang him high Everytime we sin. Poor Jesus.

This sounds contradictory to me. In one sentence you say that Christians would not take of advantage of God’s grace to sin, and then in the very next sentence appears to imply that you will sin again and yet you are still saved when you do so. I imagine you think there is a difference between practicing sin and sinning on occasion. But where exactly is that line drawn? Do you not realize that both practicing sin and sinning on occasion can be done with the intent of justifying that sin or by turning His grace into a license for immorality? Jesus simply said at the sermon on the Mount that if we look upon a woman in lust we are in danger of hellfire. By what you stated here, there does not appear to be any danger (Which would contradict the plain teaching our Lord Jesus Christ) (See: Matthew 5:28-30).

How many sins did Adam need to commit before the Fall happened?
Did Adam need to practice his sin in order for the Fall to happen?

SkyWriting · Jan 13, 2022

Psalm 27 said:
Jesus said "Go and sin no more"

And Jesus left it up to the woman to decide what her sins were.
(She was not a scholar or student of OT law. But she knew local laws.)

zoidar · Jan 13, 2022

Psalm 27 said:
Jesus said "Go and sin no more"

SkyWriting said:
And Jesus left it up to the woman to decide what her sins were.
(She was not a scholar or student of OT law. But she knew local laws.)

Wasn't Jesus specifically refering to the sin of adultery in John 8:11 ? Of course it's not like he wanted her to start stealing or sin in other ways, but it was time for her to stop living in adultery.

want to talk about OSAS?

Are you an OSAS believer?

yes

no

of course

Newbie

my Lord and my God !

Active Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Active Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old.

EL ROI

EL ROI

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

The Librarian

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️

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