Taking Questions on Christianity

RoseCrystal said:

From the little I've seen of the Jewish take on translations (which is minimal I've only just started researching it), they aren't impressed at all by the Greek translation of the old testament. They say it has a lot of inaccuracies

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TheTrueWay said:

Thanks Rose, that's interesting.

I wonder what theyd recommend then as a good enough option? Short of learning Hebrew that is.

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RoseCrystal said:

LOL pretty sure the preferred way is to learn hebrew!

But I have been reading it online here, this is a well respected Jewish approved website, so you can trust the information given here.

Classic Jewish Texts

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AV1611VET said:

Yes, indeed.On principle, I say there are no contradictions ... just paradoxes. Most so-called contradictions can be resolved with just a little more research into a matter, and studying the context.

Take this doosey for example:

2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

Yet, in Chronicles, it says:

1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Who prompted David to number Israel and Judah? God or Satan?

The answer is: both did.

God allowed Satan to prompt David, but God took the credit.

We see this principle in the book of Job, where Satan does this, that, and the other thing to Job, yet God takes the credit in the end:

Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

That's what apologetics is all about!

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RoseCrystal said:

@TheTrueWay
I find this difference between the Hebrew and the Greek very interesting

Isaiah 7:14 Jewish Bible (english translation from orignal Hebrew)
Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel.

Isaiah 7:14 KJV
14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

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TheTrueWay said:

Belief seems to hinge on the bible being trustworthy and God having ultimately authored it, being trustworthy too.

Are all the contradictions and inconsistencies due to inadequacies in translation?

(I'd be very interested to know if original Hebrew and Greek texts had similar contradictions and inconsistencies.)

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ViaCrucis said:

Inerrantists would argue that no inconsistencies exist or can exist. But one doesn't have to subscribe to inerrantism to believe in the divine inspiration of the Bible or in its authority within the Christian religion.

Biblical trustworthiness, as a general concept and as it relates to the importance of Scripture within the Christian Church and the Christian faith is not, itself, conditional upon the sort of inerrantist narrative often promulgated in modern times (largely from more fundamentalist-leaning modern Protestants); only that it is a faithful text that bears Christ and points to Christ.

To give a specific example:

"And Joab gave the sum of the numbering of the people to the king: in Israel there were 800,000 valiant men who drew the sword, and the men of Judah were 500,000." - 2 Samuel 24:9

"And Joab gave the sum of the numbering of the people to David. In all Israel there were 1,100,000 men who drew the sword, and in Judah 470,000 who drew the sword." - 1 Chronicles 21:5

For someone who subscribes to a rigid inerrantist position, this disparity would be viewed as a problem that needs to be resolved by finding some kind of explanation that can create a perfect harmony.

However, this inconsistency just isn't that big of a deal in the overall point of the Bible and what the Bible means in Christianity.

Divine inspiration does not mean that God is the personal author of the Bible, so that every single tiny piece of minutia was deliberately put there by Divine fiat, or as though the human writers were suddenly stricken by a case of automatic handwriting and were being puppeteered by God. Now, that is, more-or-less the view of some Christians, but it's never been the Christian view.

More representative of the historic Christian view is this statement by St. Augustine of Hippo,

"Remember beloved, that God has only one Utterance spread throughout all of Scripture. And through the mouths of holy persons that one Word resounds, He that was in the beginning God with God." - Ennarations on the Psalms, 103.4.1

For Augustine the Scriptures are a resounding, sonorous orchestra through which there is but the single, one, undivided Word of God, Jesus Christ Himself. When one hears the Scriptures being read, the Word being heard is Jesus. And this isn't some kind of metaphor, or just flowery purple prose--there is literally Jesus here.

Over a thousand years later Martin Luther echoes this same sentiment,

"Here [in the Scriptures] you will find the swaddling clothes and the manger in which Christ lies."

Also saying,

"It is for Christ's sake that we believe in the Scriptures, but it is not for the Scriptures' sake that we believe in Christ."

The Church's faith in Jesus does not derive from the Bible.
Rather, the Church's confession and acceptance of the books which make up the Bible is derived from her faith in Jesus Christ.

Christ comes first, and the Scriptures are there to point us back to Him.

Placing the Bible before Christ is the cart before the horse, it is fundamentally backward. Not to mention, quite frankly, idolatrous.

So it's not about the Bible being inerrant in all possible ways; it's about the Bible being the sonorous melody of Christ Himself to His Church in and through these texts. Not in a merely poetical way, but in a very real, in fact very literal way. Christ says, "My sheep hear My voice". The voice of Christ is not some ethereal, detached, disembodied voice that the individual Christian just hears inside their head or something--it is the word He has spoken, His own very Gospel, that Gospel which is heard in the Scriptures, which is preached, and which is connected in and with the tangible elements of the Sacraments. That's Christ's voice, the Good Shepherd speaks here in this word, and it is faith that believes and clings to this word.

So worrying over things, such as how many soldiers David had--as just an example--is fundamentally worrying over nothing. It just doesn't matter. What matters is Christ. The chief way Christianity reads the Bible is Christocentric, Christ as center, Christ is the whole, Christ is the point and the purpose and the Word Himself present in these texts which makes us alive.

I once heard another Lutheran--though I wish I could remember who, and when--put it this way: It's not so much about us reading the Bible, as it is the Bible reading us. It's not so much about us interpreting the Bible, as it is about the Bible interpreting us. And that only makes sense, in a Christian context, in the context of faith in Jesus and the idea that what makes the Bible sacred, what makes the Bible holy is Jesus. The Bible, as "the word of God", only makes sense Christocentrically.

-CryptoLutheran

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AV1611VET said:

He comes upon us at the moment of salvation.

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AV1611VET said:

Yes, indeed.On principle, I say there are no contradictions ... just paradoxes. Most so-called contradictions can be resolved with just a little more research into a matter, and studying the context.

Take this doosey for example:

2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

Yet, in Chronicles, it says:

1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Who prompted David to number Israel and Judah? God or Satan?

The answer is: both did.

God allowed Satan to prompt David, but God took the credit.

We see this principle in the book of Job, where Satan does this, that, and the other thing to Job, yet God takes the credit in the end:

Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

That's what apologetics is all about!

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AV1611VET said:

The Holy Spirit came to earth (to stay) ten days after Jesus' ascension.

After Jesus' ascension, He came here to stay, and will go up in the Rapture.

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TheTrueWay said:

Thanks for writing.

So when Jesus says 'my sheep hear my voice", he is meaning they listen to understand what I am telling them in the bible and follow instructions from it? Rather than hearing a voice talk to them.

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ViaCrucis said:

The Bible is an integral part of it, for the reasons I described already concerning the meaning and significance of Scripture. The focus I want to make, however, is the word. Christ's word; so yes the Bible, but also the preaching of the Gospel, the Sacraments. It's not just the ink that's on paper, it's the living word of the Gospel which is there attached to water in Baptism, there attached to bread and wine as the Eucharist, attached to the voice of the pastor pronouncing Absolution. Whenever and however that word goes out, it is alive, living. It's Christ's word, it is Christ speaking and present.

When someone tells you that Christ died for you, that He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, buried, dead, and that He rose from the dead, and that in Him you are forgiven, saved, justified, etc. That is Christ's word to you. It is what He says for you, to you. And His word is eternal life.

"Simon Peter answered him, 'Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life,'" - John 6:68

-CryptoLutheran

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TheTrueWay said:

Hi, thank you for being so patient. The question I asked is something I have wrestled with and I think you are saying yes in reply to that???

I think from what you've shared and God speaking through scripture you've shared that I can come back to faith. Do you think that may be the case?

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However I also think I need to look at and learn from the reason(s) I fell away. I think some of it has been addressed here.....I had a shaky foundation being told I could have a relationship with God if I would say a prayer and get water baptised but without explaining what relationship really means when making a commitment to God. So I began with my own assumptions.

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ViaCrucis said:

Luther called Christ the bloodhound of heaven, being relentless in His pursuit of us by His love. I don't believe that there is anyone, anyone whatsoever, there is nobody that is outside of the reach of grace, that mercy is universal, God's love is incomprehensibly vast.

If having at one time believed, but now feel estranged from Christ, He is there at the door as we read in the Revelation. Notice that "See, I stand at the door and knock" is said to Christians. He stands and knocks, because He has never left. There is no such thing as falling too far, or being estranged for too long--there is always Christ, there, where He has always been.

He is right there in the Scriptures. He is right there in the Sacraments. He is there in the preaching of the Gospel. He is there. His word is consistent, He is faithful and He is true, and His word never falters.

Christ right from the beginning said, "Repent, for the kingdom of God is near, believe the good news!" Repent and believe. Very often this is treated like something that only applies to non-Christians as a target goal for proselytizing--but this is Christ's word to us that believe as well. The call on us to repentance is the call to a life of repentance, to carry our cross as disciples of Jesus in this world. The call to believe in the Gospel is the call to keep our eyes on Christ, who goes before us. It is this call of life that we read about in the Epistle to the Hebrews, who speaks of the many saints who have come before us who are as a great "cloud of witnesses", the cheering, encouraging crowds of saints and martyrs who have already fought the fight, who have ran the race before us. And they cheer for us, as we set our gaze upon the finish line, upon the goal, the prize set before us, Jesus Christ our Lord, who is the author and finisher of our faith. That is, He is our archegos (translated often as "author" but meaning more like captain, chief prince, the leader) and the teleiotes (translated as "finisher" or "perfecter", that is, that or the one that completes or makes perfect, that which makes full). Christ is our Captain, the team leader who has gone on ahead of us, the goal and the prize Himself, who commands and calls us to faith and makes that faith full and perfect with Himself as the goal. Christ our Captain and Goal.



From the Lutheran perspective, placing the onus on the individual sinner to get things right with God is held as the chief theological error. We call it the Opinio Legis in Latin, or "Opinion of the Law". This is the opinion, or the idea, that if we just try hard enough, if we just strive, or put in enough effort then we can, by our own abilities, make things right between us and God. It is called the Opinion of the Law because it is an idea based upon believing that by obedience to God's commands, by attaining a good legal standing (as it were) in relation to God's Law and commands, that we can therefore reach a place of harmony, peace, and justice in relation to God. That is, the Opinion of the Law boils down to me relating to God through the commandments and Law of God, and seeing my relationship with and toward God in the framework of my own obedience and my ability to be in some way just.

This Opinion of the Law is, as said, regarded as the chief theological error. By framing our relationship toward God as our own power and obedience to do, say, think, believe, or even feel all the right things. And then to regard God's relation toward us based upon our own performance, upon how well we get all our ducks in a row, or all our i's dotted properly, or t's crossed.

This will always shipwreck faith.

Through the Opinion of the Law we behold God wrongly, we behold God's face as though with a dark storm cloud veiled across, and He is hidden, and distant, and terrifyingly angry. This is why so many, when they operate from within this framework, see God as angry. They see God as an angry distant ruler who demands appeasement, and who will smite or strike down any who fail to meet the harsh demands of the Law.

Instead we argue that we must instead see God in faith, and to behold God in faith is to behold Jesus Christ who suffered death for our sakes. To behold God through the Gospel. To see God in Christ is to see the Fatherly, friendly heart of God as Christ has spoken about Him. For Christ says, "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father" and "If you have known Me, you have known the Father". In Christ we encounter the One whom Christ calls "Father" and whom Christ extends to us the grace of adoption, that we also might call His Father our Father. And so He invites us to pray, "Our Father who art in heaven"

This is the distinction between the false theologies of glory, and the true theology of the cross.

Theology of glory has man wishing to speak of the invisible things of God such as His power, glory, wisdom etc and looks to human efforts--believing that glory can reach glory, wisdom can reach wisdom, or some such. He says "If only I could be more wise" or "If only I could be more holy" then God, who is wise and holy might accept me.

But the theology of the cross speaks of the manifest, visible things of God, namely that He took on flesh, became humble, suffered the shameful death of the cross. God confounds the wise and the strong by choosing foolishness and weakness. It is not about attaining glory in this life, it is not about being the wisest, the strongest, or the "most spiritual"; it is about God Himself come down in Christ; Christ who though very God "did not consider equality with God something to be exploited, but instead emptied Himself, becoming a human slave" (Philippians 2:6-7).

I am not made right by my efforts; I am made right by God's loving kindness in Jesus Christ.
My relationship to and with God is not based upon my own power, my wisdom, my strength, my moral ability, by being "very spiritual", by being the "most moral" or any such thing. Rather my relationship to and with God is based upon His love for me and the whole world in Jesus Christ.

That is why when I speak of Word and Sacrament as the "place" where Christ is, where Christ speaks, etc, I am speaking of God-come-down. God in the weak, the humble, and the mundane. God is not distant waiting for us to go up to meet Him, He is down here with us through these humble, seemingly meager gifts of preaching, water, bread and wine. One does not look at the bread and wine of the Eucharist and think, "That is God in the flesh", that is an absurd notion. But it is precisely what it is, it is very Christ, His very flesh and His very blood. This is foolishness, it is weakness--and it is precisely in this weak, foolish, mundane, lowly things that God is active and present and giving us faith and sustaining us and making us holy.

When we receive the elements of the Eucharist we are literally eating God. I don't think we can get more personal than that. We are seated at Christ's Table, and Christ literally gives Himself to us.

-CryptoLutheran

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AV1611VET said:

I'm confused.

Are you saying the Holy Spirit only resides on one person at a time?

If so, how do you explain this?

Numbers 11:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom thou knowest to be the elders of the people, and officers over them; and bring them unto the tabernacle of the congregation, that they may stand there with thee.
17 And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.

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