[MOVED] I am confused. Is Jesus contradicting Himself?

BobRyan · Oct 31, 2020

Jaxxi said:
“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. 27 And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26

Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him. John 3:15

What does this mean? Was He only talking about qualities of his disciples, and if so is He calling them murderers?

"yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple" --
To hate their own life - in comparison to love for God.

Matthew 10 explains it - where the same story is explained this way...

37 “The one who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and the one who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And the one who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 The one who has found his life will lose it, and the one who has lost his life on My account will find it.

Gregory Thompson · Oct 31, 2020

Jaxxi said:
“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. 27 And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26

Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him. John 3:15

What does this mean? Was He only talking about qualities of his disciples, and if so is He calling them murderers?

Luke has a companion passage in Matthew which says to not love people more than Jesus. The hate in Luke is putting others second always. The hate in 1st John is wishing they were dead.

chad kincham · Oct 31, 2020

Jaxxi said:
“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. 27 And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26

Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him. John 3:15

What does this mean? Was He only talking about qualities of his disciples, and if so is He calling them murderers?

John 3:15 is a well known Jewish idiom, which means to love less, not to actually hate them.

Same idiom is used in Romans 9 where it says God hated Esau, which Calvinists use to claim God hates the non-elect.

throughfiierytrial · Nov 1, 2020

Jaxxi said:
“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. 27 And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26

Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him. John 3:15

What does this mean? Was He only talking about qualities of his disciples, and if so is He calling them murderers?

The statement of Jesus there in Luke 14:26 is I believe speaking of conversion. Notice the passage says no one "can come to Me" unless, etc. When a man converts he wants desperately to turn from unrighteousness yet finds himself trapped by his sinful nature even though the desire to be good and holy is present so what follows is the hate for self and family and others in general who are evidencing sin (b/c the desire for them to be holy also is present). The Holy Spirit imbibes us at conversion somewhere along the way and magnifies these condition in us but soon He teaches us how to live and deal with the sinful nature.
Romans 7:24 and surrounding passages highlight this teaching I believe.

AbbaLove · Nov 1, 2020

throughfireytrial said:
The statement of Jesus there in Luke 14:26 is I believe speaking of conversion. Notice the passage says no one "can come to Me" unless, etc.

Believe your reference "can come to Me" is not found in Luke 14:26, but rather John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

The original Greek term for that we know today as “church” is ekklesia (found 114 times in the New Testament). It's original Greek meaning is "called out ones chosen by God" (disciples). You've possibly heard someone comment to the effect that, "He/she has a calling on their life to follow/serve Him."

John 6:65
Then Jesus said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him."
John 15:19
"If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.
Romans 12:2 (speaking of His followers/disciples)
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
1 John 2:15 (speaking of His followers/disciples)
Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Maria Billingsley · Nov 1, 2020

Jaxxi said:
“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. 27 And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26

Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him. John 3:15

What does this mean? Was He only talking about qualities of his disciples, and if so is He calling them murderers?

These are examples of hyperbolic Jewish language. Jewish idioms are often used as well and widely misunderstood in our generation. We must remember scripture was written to the original audience. So when approaching difficult passages we must take hyperbole and idioms into consideration before jumping into the literal. Blessings

throughfiierytrial · Nov 1, 2020

AbbaLove said:
Believe your reference "can come to Me" is not found in Luke 14:26, but rather John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

The original Greek term for that we know today as “church” is ekklesia (found 114 times in the New Testament). It's original Greek meaning is "called out ones chosen by God" (disciples). You've possibly heard someone comment to the effect that, "He/she has a calling on their life to follow/serve Him."

John 6:65
Then Jesus said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him."
John 15:19
"If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.
Romans 12:2 (speaking of His followers/disciples)
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
1 John 2:15 (speaking of His followers/disciples)
Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Actually, not my error. I am using a NIV84 translation Bible and it starts out reading if anyone comes to me...and this is the point I'm making, which is, someone is coming to Jesus and from context we see He is referring to conversion.

throughfiierytrial · Nov 1, 2020

Maria Billingsley said:
These are examples of hyperbolic Jewish language. Jewish idioms are often used as well and widely misunderstood in our generation. We must remember scripture was written to the original audience. So when approaching difficult passages we must take hyperbole and idioms into consideration before jumping into the literal. Blessings

How then do you reconcile having teachings by Jesus which are hyperbolic while God teaches in Ephesians 5:4: "no foolish talk"? I can't agree with your supposition.

Maria Billingsley · Nov 1, 2020

throughfireytrial said:
How then do you reconcile having teachings by Jesus which are hyperbolic while God teaches in Ephesians 5:4: "no foolish talk"? I can't agree with your supposition.

Hyperbole and idioms were not considered foolish at that time, just the way to make a point.
Foolish talk, on the other hand, is speaking "unwisely" and we know Jesus did not speak this way.
Blessings

throughfiierytrial · Nov 1, 2020

Maria Billingsley said:
Hyperbole and idioms were not considered foolish at that time, just the way to make a point.
Foolish talk, on the other hand, is speaking "unwisely" and we know Jesus did not speak this way.
Blessings

I'm well read and well versed in our Scriptures and I notice that often when plainly read Scripture doesn't match someone's interpretation often excuses are made...like, hyperbole given as a reason.
If this were the case (this Luke verse were hyperbole) then it defeats your limits...speaking "unwisely".

Maria Billingsley · Nov 1, 2020

throughfireytrial said:
I'm well read and well versed in our Scriptures and I notice that often when plainly read Scripture doesn't match someone's interpretation often excuses are made...like, hyperbole given as a reason.
If this were the case (this Luke verse were hyperbole) then it defeats your limits...speaking "unwisely".

To hate your mother and father is not "plainly" reading scripture neither is saying it is murder. This is not an instance to take a literal interpretation. Blessings.

throughfiierytrial · Nov 1, 2020

Maria Billingsley said:
To hate your mother and father is not "plainly" reading scripture neither is saying it is murder. This is not an instance to take a literal interpretation. Blessings.[/QUOTE
What I said is that the Luke passage is referring to conversion. Post #24

Dkh587 · Nov 1, 2020

He is teaching a concept based in the law of God/Moses.

for example, the Israelites were taught to kill their brother, sister, mother etc if they were to entice them to worship other gods.

you must hate your family when it comes to allegiance to God and Messiah.

Deuteronomy 13:6-11 ESV

if your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him.

But you shall kill him.

Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people.

You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from Yahweh your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

And all Israel shall hear and fear and never again do any such wickedness as this among you.

NBB · Nov 2, 2020

He is not talking about hating your parents with hate, he told to love your enemies so we should love our parents too, i don't know why it say 'hate' maybe a language limitation or expression or something.

FulfilledInHim · Nov 2, 2020

Jaxxi said:
“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. 27 And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26

Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him. John 3:15

What does this mean? Was He only talking about qualities of his disciples, and if so is He calling them murderers?

The term “hate” here is better translated “love less”. In other words, anyone who loves their parents more than Me, cannot be My disciple.

In this light we can better understand His point, without contradiction.

throughfiierytrial · Nov 2, 2020

Jaxxi said:
“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. 27 And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26

Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him. John 3:15

What does this mean? Was He only talking about qualities of his disciples, and if so is He calling them murderers?

Hello,
Let me explain my understanding of Luke 14:26 with an illustration:
John 3:3:
Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.

This Bible passage above is a statement of Jesus and is not hyperbole nor is it a passage which can be read and understood without looking for the deep spiritual meaning behind the words. Likewise, in Luke 14:26 we see what appear to be words which contradict the Bible and even common sense...for who, wishing to do good and willing to turn from evil, hates their parents or would teach to hate others. We look for the deeper meaning and look for that meaning to be found in Scripture itself.
I therefore remain convinced that it is because we live in a sin-sick body that we hate ourselves and hate others committed to Christ who are sinning. This is the struggle against sin spoken of by Apostle Paul in Romans 7:7-25 and especially the verses 21-25. (In my view)

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