Why do people blame calvinists ?

Dave L said:

You already turned Romans 10:9-10 into law.

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Earlier you were the one saying applying Romans 10:6-10 exactly as written to your situation is turning those scriptures into LAW. I'm not the one doing the twisting.

No surprise over this flack. Romans 10:9-10 is not a favorite passage among Calvanist because it shows that Faith precedes Salvation.

My major issue with Calvinism is that it makes God the author of evil. It states that he created evil and he designed humans to be evil. And even worse it states he pre-destined a majority of his own creation to hell. I understand there are variations of Calvinists and not all Calvinists believe this. And those who are not this extreme I can even fellowship with. But to say God created evil and did not allow for free will (while still being sovereign at the same time) is a spit in the face to him and it is not biblical. That's why I see it as an evil philosophy, at least the extreme kind. I won't even get started on the works-based version of Calvinism which has aspects of works-based salvation through the back door with the teaching of perseverance of the saints. That's where Calvinists say you have to prove you are really saved by your works and you can't know for certain if you have salvation until the end... Totally unbiblical and a spit in the face to the cross and Jesus Christ's finished redemptive work 2000 years ago. Eternal life is a free gift you receive when you believe the gospel and you are sealed at that moment. God did not just die for an elect few he died for the sins of the whole world, every single sin was paid for, you just need to believe it. Anyways, those are my gripes about the many Calvinist teachings and why I see it as evil. Not saying all of them believe the same. But still, why would you follow a man, John Calvin, instead of following Jesus? Why would you label yourself as an 'ism' instead of just following the bible? It becomes a cult in that way too. Just my two cents.

Dave L said:

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)

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Your texts do not negate the fact that scripture says faith comes by hearing Gods word.

The natural man on his own doesn’t believe, but when Gods word is heard and the HS enlightens them enough to believe, they then have a choice to let the HS draw them to Jesus, or resist the HS as Stephen said was the reason that the Jews that Jesus came for, who are Gods elect bride, who Jesus longed to have come to Him, were able to reject Him, and kill Him.

There’s no irresistible grace.

To quote own writing:

Israel was God’s elect. Isaiah 45:4.

Israel is who Jesus specifically came for, Matthew 15:24.

Yet though they were Gods ELECT, and Jesus came specifically to save them, they rejected Him - which is impossible to do in reformed election dogma.

Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him NOT.

Yes, this is the same people that Jesus, (who is God), came for, and He yearned for them to come to Him, but He didn’t get what he so greatly desired:


Luk 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and AND YE WOULD NOT!


The above is impossible in Calvinism - yet it happened. Jesus came for His own, His elect, and they rejected Him and rejected salvation:


Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was NECESSARY that the word of God should first have been spoken to YOU: but seeing ye put it from you, and JUDGE YOURSELVES UNWORTHY OF EVERLASTING LIFE, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.


Stephen preached to those elect Jews who rejected Jesus in John 1:11, who refused to come to Jesus (though He yearned for them to) Luke 13:34, and explained HOW they were able to reject Jesus, and to kill the prophets God sent them - because they RESIST the Holy Spirit.


Yes, the Holy Spirit, who draws us to Jesus, and without Him no man can say Jesus is Lord - is not irresistible - as reformed doctrine claims.


There’s no irresistible grace - because God allows us the free will to resist the Holy Spirit.


Stephen said:


Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST THE HOLY GHOST: as your fathers did, so do ye.


Act 7:52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered (Jesus).


Then they stoned Stephen to death, too.

Calvinism is unbiblical.

Justified_By_Christ_Alone said:

My major issue with Calvinism is that it makes God the author of evil. It states that he created evil and he designed humans to be evil. And even worse it states he pre-destined a majority of his own creation to hell. I understand there are variations of Calvinists and not all Calvinists believe this. And those who are not this extreme I can even fellowship with. But to say God created evil and did not allow for free will (while still being sovereign at the same time) is a spit in the face to him and it is not biblical. That's why I see it as an evil philosophy, at least the extreme kind. I won't even get started on the works-based version of Calvinism which has aspects of works-based salvation through the back door with the teaching of perseverance of the saints. That's where Calvinists say you have to prove you are really saved by your works and you can't know for certain if you have salvation until the end... Totally unbiblical and a spit in the face to the cross and Jesus Christ's finished redemptive work 2000 years ago. Eternal life is a free gift you receive when you believe the gospel and you are sealed at that moment. God did not just die for an elect few he died for the sins of the whole world, every single sin was paid for, you just need to believe it. Anyways, those are my gripes about the many Calvinist teachings and why I see it as evil. Not saying all of them believe the same. But still, why would you follow a man, John Calvin, instead of following Jesus? Why would you label yourself as an 'ism' instead of just following the bible? It becomes a cult in that way too. Just my two cents.

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God is the author of sin in Calvinism, because as stated by the Calvinist/reformed Westminster confession, every single thing that happens has been decreed by God, without exception.

This means when Adam and Eve sinned and mankind fell, that event was decreed by God, which makes God the author of sin!

chad kincham said:

God is the author of sin in Calvinism, because as stated by the Calvinist/reformed Westminster confession, every single thing that happens has been decreed by God, without exception.

This means when Adam and Eve sinned and mankind fell, that event was decreed by God, which makes God the author of sin!

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I agree. God foreknew everything even before he created everything as he is God and so he knew what would happen in the garden beforehand and had his plan for redemption through Christ already in place as part of his plan. But he certainly did not force Adam and Eve to eat from the tree and does not force anyone to sin. He gave humans free will. He foreknows and yet allows free will at the same time in his sovereignty. That's the mysterious aspect of God. But it is so important for people to realize he allows free will and humans (as well as lucifer when he first sinned) are still responsible for evil and sin, not God who is all good!

Jesus is YHWH said:

Can a physically dead man choose to come back to life ? why not

Can a spiritually dead man choose to have spiritual life ? why

Doesn't dead mean dead or does it just depend upon your doctrine ?

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You can’t equate a dead body that can’t move or think because it’s a home that man lives in that he leaves at death, with spiritual death from our sins, which the Bible defines as being separated from God.

The sinner is separated from Gods presence, the spirit of God doesn’t indwell them, thus they are separated.

Which hardly means total inability to believe while separated.

Especially since scripture says faith comes when Gods word is heard, not by being first regenerated and saved.

chad kincham said:

God made man in His image.

God is a spirit, says scripture, and has no body.

Therefore our physical body cannot be the image of God.

God, a spirit, created us as a spirit being, and put us in a temporary home called a mortal physical body.

You need to explain in what form Jesus existed before God the father made a body for Him that He incarnated into.

You need to explain why Jesus committed His SPIRIT to the Father as He died on the cross.

He is a divine spirit, 2nd member of the triune Godhead who also has an immortal body, and only has it because He incarnated into it, so He could die on a cross for our sins.

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God made man in His image. He didn't explain what that meant so anything claim about that is mere speculation. I don't have to explain what you're asking. John said, the Word became flesh. Paul said that being in the form of God Christ emptied Himself and be man. You need to explain this isn't case if you claim isn't.

chad kincham said:

He can’t empty Himself of His spirit, HE IS A SPIRIT.
He emptied Himself of the divine power and glory He had before incarnating in a body.

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Paul said He became a man. John indicates that He still is a man.

chad kincham said:

That’s absolutely wrong.

If you’d stop proof-texting and put the verse in actual context, Paul’s talking about each believers body.

1Co 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

1Co 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

1Co 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.


That’s too clear to obfuscate.

Shalom.

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If it's so clear why don't you understand it? Notice is verse 15 he said. "bodies" plural. In verse 19 He said, "body" singular. As I pointed out, the word translated "your" in verse 19 is plural, He uses a plural you and a singular body. It would be the same as saying, you guys body. Their body was the church, the body of Christ. He didn't, you guys bodies. Had he said that it would indicate each persons body. But, that's not what he said. You really should check this stuff out before claiming people are wrong.

chad kincham said:

You haven’t answered the questions.

Is Jesus God the logos?

What form do you claim Jesus was in BEFORE He incarnated in a body, when He created the world?

The correct answers are He is God the word.

And He was, and still is, a divine spirit.

He doesn’t have a spirit, HE IS A SPIRIT.

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And yet He said He was flesh and bone. You can believe in Dualism if you like, however, you'll never come to a proper understanding of the Bible until you relinquish it.

chad kincham said:

And yet the risen Jesus told the church in Revelation 3:20 that He stands knocking at the door of our hearts, wanting to come in and sup with us.

And Jesus equates himself with the Holy Spirit, when He said:

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

He’s sending the Holy Spirit as our comforter, yet says, I WILL COME TO YOU.

That’s why it’s called the mystery of the trinity.

Just like the mystery Paul said is CHRIST IN US, the hope of glory.

You can’t spin it. Jesus and the Holy Spirit indwells all believers.

If that was some kind of metaphor IT WOULDN'T BE A MYSTERY, would it?

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Do you understand metaphors?

chad kincham said:

Very easy to reconcile.

God is a divine and eternal spirit, and had no body, until God the Logos, Jesus incarnated into a body.

A human body is only a house, a home that we live in until the body dies, then we leave it. 2 Corinthians 5.

The bo


Of course He came in the flesh - that hardly negates the biblical fact that Jesus is God - that God IS a divine eternal spirit - that the mortal body is a house that WE live in, it is NOT us, it’s a tent we put on.

In that text Paul wasn’t proving Jesus is ONLY a physical body with no spirit inside - Paul was refuting the gnostic cult that said life is an illusion and that the physical body doesn’t really exist.

Answer the question, or we are done: in what form did Jesus exist in from all eternity and when He created the world?

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Like I said, you can believe in Dualism if you like. However, you'll never come to understand the Bible until you relinquish it. There is nothing in the Bible that teaches that man is a spirit with a temporary housing, a body. Gen t2:7 states clearly that the body became a living soul.

chad kincham said:

Scripture says God IS a spirit, a divine, eternal spirit. John 4:24

The word spirit in John 4:24 is Pneuma.

If pneuma only means breath, then God is only a breath, which is ludicrous.

The word doesn’t mean only breath or wind

Jesus is God, and thus He is an eternal divine spirit.

Obviously you deny His divinity, since you can’t admit He is a divine spirit incarnated into a body.

This is going nowhere, so enjoy your private interpretation of scripture.

Shalom.

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Well, as I said, when translated spirit, it's a figure of speech. It's not literal. The literal translation is wind or breath. So, when the Scriptures say God is Spirit, it's a figure of speech. God is breath, is a figure of speech. It's up to you to figure out what the figure is.

chad kincham said:

When Paul wrote that Jesus indwelling believers is a mystery, that’s not a metaphor, or it wouldn’t be mysterious.

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That's your reasoning?

chad kincham said:

God is a pneuma, says John 4:24. IS a pneuma. An eternal, divine pneuma.

If pneuma only meant wind or breath, that would mean God is merely a wind or breath, instead of an eternal being.

Jesus is also God. Thus Jesus also IS a pneuma. That’s his nature.

It is then obvious that when He left heaven to go live in a body, so he could die for our sins, His spirit entered that body.

And He equated Himself with the Holy Spirit by saying:

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

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The problem is that you reading the Scriptures through the lens of Dualism. Until you're willing to let it go you're not going to make sense of things. The Bible doesn't teach Dualism. It's like trying to learn Spanish with a book on French

chad kincham said:

Your texts do not negate the fact that scripture says faith comes by hearing Gods word.

The natural man on his own doesn’t believe, but when Gods word is heard and the HS enlightens them enough to believe, they then have a choice to let the HS draw them to Jesus, or resist the HS as Stephen said was the reason that the Jews that Jesus came for, who are Gods elect bride, who Jesus longed to have come to Him, were able to reject Him, and kill Him.

There’s no irresistible grace.

To quote own writing:

Israel was God’s elect. Isaiah 45:4.

Israel is who Jesus specifically came for, Matthew 15:24.

Yet though they were Gods ELECT, and Jesus came specifically to save them, they rejected Him - which is impossible to do in reformed election dogma.

Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him NOT.

Yes, this is the same people that Jesus, (who is God), came for, and He yearned for them to come to Him, but He didn’t get what he so greatly desired:


Luk 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and AND YE WOULD NOT!


The above is impossible in Calvinism - yet it happened. Jesus came for His own, His elect, and they rejected Him and rejected salvation:


Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was NECESSARY that the word of God should first have been spoken to YOU: but seeing ye put it from you, and JUDGE YOURSELVES UNWORTHY OF EVERLASTING LIFE, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.


Stephen preached to those elect Jews who rejected Jesus in John 1:11, who refused to come to Jesus (though He yearned for them to) Luke 13:34, and explained HOW they were able to reject Jesus, and to kill the prophets God sent them - because they RESIST the Holy Spirit.


Yes, the Holy Spirit, who draws us to Jesus, and without Him no man can say Jesus is Lord - is not irresistible - as reformed doctrine claims.


There’s no irresistible grace - because God allows us the free will to resist the Holy Spirit.


Stephen said:


Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST THE HOLY GHOST: as your fathers did, so do ye.


Act 7:52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered (Jesus).


Then they stoned Stephen to death, too.

Calvinism is unbiblical.

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The Pharisees heard the word. Many times. “So I am willing to endure anything if it will bring salvation and eternal glory in Christ Jesus to those God has chosen.” 2 Timothy 2:10 (NLT)

John Mullally said:

Earlier you were the one saying applying Romans 10:6-10 exactly as written to your situation is turning those scriptures into LAW. I'm not the one doing the twisting.

No surprise over this flack. Romans 10:9-10 is not a favorite passage among Calvanist because it shows that Faith precedes Salvation.

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.​

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Salvation is of the Lord, not you.

Dave L said:

Salvation is of the Lord, not you.

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The Bible clearly teaches in Romans 10:6-10 that the person is involved. Here we see believing and speaking by the person precedes salvation.

This pattern is seen in the Gospels when Jesus and his disciples (under his authority) healed: The person being healed, or his friends, participated by action or speech before the healing took place - they were not zapped out of the blue. At the pool of Bethesda, notice that Jesus had to draw action out of the man before healing by asking him the seeming obvious question if he wanted to be healed. Jesus reinforced the need for cooperation by frequently saying "Your faith has made you well" after the healing.

When Jesus's message was doubted while preaching at Nazareth we read in Matthew 13:58: "Now He did not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief." When Jesus healed the Synagogue leader's daughter in Mark 5, he had to put the crowd of mocking mourners outside, so that he was only accompanied by those with faith (child's father & 3 principal disciples) as he spoke inspired healing words over the child.

John Mullally said:

The Bible clearly teaches in Romans 10:6-10 that the person is involved. Believing and speaking precedes salvation.

This pattern is seen in the Gospels when Jesus and his disciples (under his authority) healed: The person being healed, or his friends, participated by action or speech before the healing took place - they were not zapped out of the blue as you say. At the pool of Bethesda, Jesus had to draw that action out of the man. Jesus frequently said "Your faith has made you well".

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Only believers think in terms of Romans 10:6-10. You deny grace and turn it into law for the self-righteous to save themselves therewith.

Dave L said:

Only believers think in terms of Romans 10:6-10. You deny grace and turn it into law for the self-righteous to save themselves therewith.

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It is truly sad that truth in Romans 10:6-10 upsets you so much that you feel the need to lash out incoherently. For entertainment anyone reading this thread should go back and read our exchanges. Its like trying to argue with a flat earther.