The Two Witnesses.

Marilyn C said:

We can write a lot of maybe`s but I prefer to stick to what God has written in His word. Sorry if you see differently.

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The book of Revelation has been debated over the ages. There is no clear answers as the debate has not been settled.

Carl Emerson said:

I had another interesting thought after reflecting on this thread.

Three appeared to Abraham. They broke bread.

One remained.

Two went to Sodom.

They struck some of the inhabitants blind.

They rescued Lot and his family.

Sodom was totally destroyed.

Is it possible that these are in fact the 'two witnesses' that will return again?

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I don't think any will return from the grave .Its appointed to all men to die once. All did not receiving the promise of a new incorruptible body that judgement will occur on the last day .. . rise.

Two kinds of witnesses . One of God not seen the eternal and the other of men seen the temporal.

Satan the father of lies not seen the spirit of error would make it all one. its his motive of operation turning things upside down. What God calls one the lying spirit divides .And what God separates he brings together.

The two witness of God is the word of God signified as the law and the prophets. The gospel as the key that the gates of hell could never prevail against. The work of two the father and Son working as one in order to bring the peace of God that surpasses our understanding .Giving us the understanding of one God.. .not the understanding of men

The gospel will be silenced or killed for a short period when God sends a famine for hearing the two witnesses, the gospel and believing God . To will and to do do. The one witness of God. Not the witness of men .His witness is the greater because it is the witness of God not seen.

Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:

In that way no Father, no Son. No Son no Father .

1 John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

1 John 5:9
If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

Marilyn C said:

Well, TC, people may debate until the cows come in, (we live near cows on farms) but I believe what my teachers have taught me, and I have studied to understand what they said. That is enough for me as it all centres on the Lord Jesus Christ and as He is known in the heavenly realms.


THE FOUR VISIONS

The predominant aim of Revelation is the setting forth the splendours of the Son of Man, & to reveal His glorious person. There are four visions of the Son of Man as He is known in the heavenly realm & each vision in turn carries through to completion one aspect of the fourfold ministry of Christ which He exercised when on earth. His Kinship was expressed in Matthew, His Heirship in Mark, His Mediatorship in Luke, & His Judgeship in John.

Vision 1. CHRIST - Head of the Body. (Rev. 1 – 3)

This reveals the empowered Son of Man as the Sovereign Administrator.

`in His right hand He held 7 stars.`



Vision 2. CHRIST - HEIR (Rev. 4 – 7)

This reveals the enthroned Son of Man as the Supreme Executor.

`in His right hand He held the 7 sealed book.`



Vision 3. CHRIST - MEDIATOR (Rev. 8 – 13)

This reveals the exalted Son of Man as the Stately Mediator.

`in His hand is a sacred censor.`


Vision 4. CHRIST - JUDGE (Rev. 14 – 22)

This reveals the entitled Son of Man as the Sublime Adjudicator.

`in His hand is a sharp sickle.`



To reveal Christ to us in Revelation, there are three hundred & thirty references to the figures, shadows, symbols, types, patterns, persons, & buildings of the Old Testament.


This unveiling is the culmination of all the truths expressed from Genesis to Revelation, for all scripture is centred on one purpose and that is to reveal Christ to us in all His Glory.

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I would agree the mysteries of God hid in parables or figures, the signified language of God .

It can be seen in the introduction of the book of Revelation setting the standard for the whole. Not only was it inspired but also signified using shadows, symbols, types, patterns, persons, & buildings of the Old Testament. The hidden manna chapter 2:17

Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Carl Emerson said:

I had another interesting thought after reflecting on this thread.

Three appeared to Abraham. They broke bread.

One remained.

Two went to Sodom.

They struck some of the inhabitants blind.

They rescued Lot and his family.

Sodom was totally destroyed.

Is it possible that these are in fact the 'two witnesses' that will return again?

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The two witnesses in Rev 11 are killed by the beast that comes up from the abyss.
Their bodies are refused burial. That speaks to us of flesh and blood. Bodies of the dust of the earth.
I think those that appeared to Abraham were angels.
I think two who are born and raised in those days of the end will be called by God for His purpose. Most likely, (like Paul), set aside from birth for Gods purpose.
Though the names were not given its a stretch to think God would take anyone from heaven and send them to earth in bodies of the dust of the earth. (no such detail was given) God only said He would appoint His two witnesses.

Randy777 said:

I think those that appeared to Abraham were angels.

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Angels appear with flesh and blood bodies - they ate together with Abraham.

We are told we will entertain them unawares...

They were in physical bodies as we are - they were not just spiritual beings.

See Gen 19-16 - a non physical spirit doesn't grab you by the hand...

Angels have the ability to assume a spiritual presence or a physical presence.

Randy777 said:

The two witnesses in Rev 11 are killed by the beast that comes up from the abyss.
Their bodies are refused burial. That speaks to us of flesh and blood. Bodies of the dust of the earth.
I think those that appeared to Abraham were angels.
I think two who are born and raised in those days of the end will be called by God for His purpose. Most likely, (like Paul), set aside from birth for Gods purpose.
Though the names were not given its a stretch to think God would take anyone from heaven and send them to earth in bodies of the dust of the earth. (no such detail was given) God only said He would appoint His two witnesses.

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Yes and no where in scripture does it say the witnesses are not physical and angelic like at Sodom.

Marilyn C said:

And where does it say that Timothy and Titus died? God`s word tells us that all men die, so thus we know that Timothy and Titus died. Logic.

So it is with your comment, `Where does it say that the witnesses are not physical and angelic like at Sodom?` We need to look at what actually is said about them and not hide behind the `not say.`

As I`ve written before, God clearly tells us that the 2 men, named Moses and Elijah witnessed of Christ`s coming death, and then they witnessed His resurrection and ascension. These events the 12 disciples were to go and witness of Christ - death, resurrection and ascension. (Acts 1: 21 & 22)

Similarly the 2 men named by God as Moses and Elijah are able to witness of Christ`s death, resurrection and ascension for they witnessed those events.

They are specifically named by God as the two men.

`Then behold, TWO MEN, talked with Him, who were MOSES and ELIJAH.` (Luke 9: 30)

Let`s look at their qualifications.

1. They witnessed of Christ`s death, resurrection and ascension.
2. God took their bodies.
3. They represent to Israel the Law and Prophets.
4. The amazing abilities they had in their former life, is again given to them in the trib. (Rev. 11: 8 & 9)

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Well enjoy your perspective - end times is not my calling, I just ventured to make a comment.

I have opened a thread on the two witnesses before for anyone interested in having a read...

The Two Witnesses

Carl Emerson said:

Yes and no where in scripture does it say the witnesses are not physical and angelic like at Sodom.

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You make a assumption that angels can't eat with spiritual "bodies".
The last supper
When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table. 15And he said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God.”

17After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, “Take this and divide it among you. 18For I tell you I will not drink again from the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”

The two witnesses were killed. Their bodies lay in the street. They were of mankind.

Randy777 said:

You make a assumption that angels can't eat with spiritual "bodies".

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Can you quote me please - I have been saying the opposite...

Carl Emerson said:

Angels appear with flesh and blood bodies - they ate together with Abraham.

We are told we will entertain them unawares...

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Messengers? Its one of things that is revisited by some from time to time.

Remember, God is not a man. . a created being. As eternal Spirit he has no beginning of days or end of Spirit life.

It’s not a salvation issue but I would offer more of like how can we hear God's witness? Or what does His Spirit say to the churches as his witness to mankind. The (eternal not seen) and not the private interpretation or commentary, the temporal "witness of men"?

It would seem he who lovingly commands us to seek his unseen approval (2 Timothy 2:15) that works in the sons of God, the born again believers. In that way he has not left us as orphans to rely the witness of man and therefore seek their approval . He has given a prescription to rightfully divide between the two witnesses. The temporal as"the witness of man" and the eternal as the "witness of God".

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

I wonder why the use of the foreign word (Hebrew or Greek) rather than the English translation that gives the original thought of the Holy Spirit inspired from heaven ?

Two words that work together as one. Like the words angel (messenger) and the word apostle (sent one). How beautiful the feet of sent ones.

Why not literally translate the original thought in a person’s native tongue to remove all doubt? It would seem something is being hidden according to the witness of mankind?

In Deuteronomy 4:3 there is a warning not to add or substract from a single word in order to protect the integrity. "The witness of God". Just as at the end of the gospel, the book of prophecy in Revelation 22 another warning in respect to the integrity whole as it is written. The final witness sealed with 7 seals.

I would think scripture defines the words of God. Every word that falls like rain from heaven is the witness of God and every word inspired from earth is the witness of men ..

John 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.. . . .( chief apostle )

1 John 5:9If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

Every word as a witness of God had a intended meaning and purpose. Change the meaning of one word destroy the integrity of the whole.

The witness of men, the private interpretations is the lesser. In that way we are to divide the eternal things of God from those of men. . . if we are to seek the doctrines inspired from above.

2 Peter 1:19-21 King James Version (KJV)We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

The witness of God informs us of those born again of God. Not born of man the temporal

1 John 3:2 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Sons of God are born again messengers of God. Angels as messengers of God. How beautiful are the feet of messengers washed in the water of the word the gospel of our salvation.They they bring the gospel called "sent ones". .

Why the translators use the Greek words . In those cases it is a mystery .

When looking at the Hebrew verse. I would offer can't entertain some one a person cannot see. . . that is, other that one which it is preserved for the Holy Spirit. The one manner our Father in heaven .

1 John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

Carl Emerson said:

Can you quote me please - I have been saying the opposite...

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I think I read you correctly. You stated the angels had flesh and blood because they ate with Abraham. You did not consider that "bodies" in the order of spirit could also do so.
We don't know alot about the resurrected body other then they are not subject to death. We also know we will be like the Lord. Man was created mortal. Angels were created immortal. At the resurrection we will be like the angels of God. The two witnesses are killed. Therefore they are of mankind. I am not sure why God would have to clarify that in a prophesy of His appointing of two witnesses who will testify in the city where their Lord was crucified. You made a giant leap to the OT in your proposal. You are free to consider what you state but shouldn't be surprised if others don't share that view. The only one I would consider who came from above to witness the gospel message is Jesus. He was born into the world as the Son of Man. We can disagree we don't need to spend a great deal of time going back and forth in this.

Randy777 said:

You stated the angels had flesh and blood because they ate with Abraham. You did not consider that "bodies" in the order of spirit could also do so.

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I am not sure what you mean - an example from scripture would help...

Carl Emerson said:

I am not sure what you mean - an example from scripture would help...

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Or perhaps you can show where you got angels are flesh and blood.

In speaking of the angels he says, "He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire."

I suggest you read about the resurrected body in how we will be like Jesus.

Last supper - He's speaking of eating and drinking again. Which would be in a resurrected body.

For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God.”
17After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, “Take this and divide it among you. 18For I tell you I will not drink again from the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”

Randy777 said:

Or perhaps you can show where you got angels are flesh and blood.

In speaking of the angels he says, "He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire."

I suggest you read about the resurrected body in how we will be like Jesus.

Last supper - He's speaking of eating and drinking again. Which would be in a resurrected body.

For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God.”
17After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, “Take this and divide it among you. 18For I tell you I will not drink again from the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”

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The resurrected "not flesh and blood" as rudiments of this corrupted creation . It could never enter the new order. But a new incorruptible body. . the bride of Christ that kind of body no person has received (Hebrew 11:39)

They will be neither male nor female, Jew nor Gentile, As sons of God (humans) we are not what we will be. There will be no procreating.

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

You could say the same kind of sons of God that are shown rising to the throne room of God moved by the Spirit of Christ to make their requests known .When the spirit of lies the accuser of the brethren was there accusing the sons of God day and night. .

God offered Job as a son of God to perform the test of faith .Christ's faith working in Job to both will and do the good pleasure of our unseen Holy Father. .

Job 1:5-8 King James Version (KJV) And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually. Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

garee said:

The resurrected "not flesh and blood" as rudiments of this corrupted creation . It could never enter the new order. But a new incorruptible body. . the bride of Christ that kind of body no person has received (Hebrew 11:39)

They will be neither male nor female, Jew nor Gentile, As sons of God (humans) we are not what we will be. There will be no procreating.

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

You could say the same kind of sons of God that are shown rising to the throne room of God moved by the Spirit of Christ to make their requests known .When the spirit of lies the accuser of the brethren was there accusing the sons of God day and night. .

God offered Job as a son of God to perform the test of faith .Christ's faith working in Job to both will and do the good pleasure of our unseen Holy Father. .

Job 1:5-8 King James Version (KJV) And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually. Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

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My point- then I guess the two witnesses are not the two Angels sent to Abraham then as the two witnesses are killed and their bodies lay in the street. Mortals.

And Jesus spoke of eating and drinking in the kingdom to come. We shall be like Him. Then its possible to eat and drink in our new bodies just as the Angels were able to do so.

I am not sure what point you are making.

Randy777 said:

My point- then I guess the two witnesses are not the two Angels sent to Abraham then as the two witnesses are killed and their bodies lay in the street. Mortals.

And Jesus spoke of eating and drinking in the kingdom to come. We shall be like Him. Then its possible to eat and drink in our new bodies just as the Angels were able to do so.

I am not sure what point you are making.

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I am not sure what we will eat if we do. It would seem not eating in order to maintain life seeing life will be eternal never ending and not under the letter of the law death.

No starving to death

In that way food is for the stomach and the stomach for meats but God shall destroy both it and them as part of the promise death they would die and return to the dust. .

Genesis 3:19 In the of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Possibly more according to the example of Jesus when the disciples brought food from town and Jesus said his meat is to do the will of the unseen Father.

Yes they were human messengers in genesis as sons of God. "believers"

The two messenger in Revelations are the witness of God not that of literal humans the witness of men seen.

Those two working as one is the law of God (death) and the prophets shown carrying out the law as it is written, the law of faith

The law of God is signified by Moses the law giver and the prophets coming in the power of Elisa the unseen power of the holy Spirit that worked in them . The gospel will be silenced or killed for a short while. God will sent a famine for hearing his understanding.