Calvinist limited love for mankind

grafted branch · Oct 30, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
To me, Arminianism in any of its various forms, and the notion of Freewill as it is generally employed, does exactly the opposite --making man his own independent being.

Yea, I agree with your statement, even the favorite Arminian verses of Joshua 24:15-16 only gives 2 choices; they can either serve God or other gods. While there are many other gods, I haven’t found any verses that would indicate there are 3 masters (God, Satan, and mankind). Man is referred to as a servant of sin, not a master who can either choose sin or not.

beachykeen14 · Oct 31, 2020

RickReads said:
The Calvins I`ve had issue with were very sure of themselves. I`m sure there are plenty of Calvins who worry for their salvation but the alpha Calvinists did a good job of giving me serious reservations about their doctrine. They displayed a lack of charity towards sinners and I think that attitude is a mistake.

1 Peter 4:18 tells us that the righteous are scarcely saved. If that is true then the only difference between sinners and us is the righteousness of Christ given to us. It is the wedding garment in the parable of Jesus.

Oh Amen YESYESYES .."The Calvins displayed a lack of charity towards sinners and I think that attitude is a mistake." I SO needed to read this today

Our son is now very involved in his reformed Baptist church community and I really fear he has major errors in a lot of major things and it's really been breaking my heart; what you just said is exactly the main reason I just have to pray that God shows him the truth -in my opinion God is extremely way more loving than The view of God that this reformed Baptist church presents -thank you so much for saying this.

-beachykeen

RickReads · Oct 31, 2020

beachykeen14 said:
Oh Amen YESYESYES .."The Calvins displayed a lack of charity towards sinners and I think that attitude is a mistake." I SO needed to read this today Our son is now very involved in his reformed Baptist church community and I really fear he has major errors in a lot of major things and it's really been breaking my heart; what you just said is exactly the main reason I just have to pray that God shows him the truth -in my opinion God is extremely way more loving than The view of God that this reformed Baptist church presents -thank you so much for saying this. -beachykeen

I think that even a Calvinist may be forgiven :doh:

LOL! Your son is probably ok. I`ve only been able to find 2 errors in Calvinism, Both are pretty good sized errors but most of what they believe is Biblical.
I like love everybody Christians better then hate evil Christians but it`s ok to hate evil. I would point out to him that Jesus only ever got mad at religeous people and that Jesus was & is a friend to sinners.
You probably didn`t know this but I`m a Baptist myself :liturgy:

chad kincham · Nov 1, 2020

Jeshu said:
This is how i believe God The Father loves people. As His offspring He loves us all and longs to have fellowship with us and live in our hearts as our God and we His children, for that is how it ought to be in the truth.

Because of the fall, Satan is our spiritual father, and we are in the kingdom of darkness, thus we are not the children of God - unless we change kingdoms by receiving Jesus, and becoming adopted as children of God.

John 1:12

Galatians 4:5

Colossians 1:13

John 8:44

Shalom.

Jeshu · Nov 1, 2020

chad kincham said:
Because of the fall, Satan is our spiritual father, and we are in the kingdom of darkness, thus we are not the children of God - unless we change kingdoms by receiving Jesus, and becoming adopted as children of God.

John 1:12

Galatians 4:5

Colossians 1:13

John 8:44

Shalom.

Sorry Scripture tells different than you do.

Acts 17:28 teaches us that humanity is God's offspring, so people are by nature not children of the devil, but become sinful as they grow up.

"For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’"

RickReads · Nov 1, 2020

Jeshu said:
Sorry Scripture tells different than you do.

Acts 17:28 teaches us that humanity is God's offspring, so people are by nature not children of the devil, but become sinful as they grow up.

"For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’"

I'll have to think about this one awhile. You got anymore verses? Hard to make a winning argument with one verse.

Jeshu · Nov 1, 2020

Psalm 139:13-16
"For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place,
when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all the days ordained for me were written in your book
before one of them came to be."

Psalm 127:3
"Children are a heritage from the Lord, offspring a reward from him."

Honest we have all come from the Almighty originally. Born and conceived in sin does not mean we are descendant of satan. Psalm 139 and Psalm 127 tells us very different.

RickReads · Nov 1, 2020

Jeshu said:
Psalm 139:13-16
"For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place,
when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all the days ordained for me were written in your book
before one of them came to be."

Psalm 127:3
"Children are a heritage from the Lord, offspring a reward from him."

Honest we have all come from the Almighty originally. Born and conceived in sin does not mean we are descendant of satan. Psalm 139 and Psalm 127 tells us very different.

I think this one fits in nicely but I believe the verses all pertain to God`s elect.

Jeremiah 1:5

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

Jeshu · Nov 1, 2020

RickReads said:
I think this one fits in nicely but I believe the verses all pertain to God`s elect.

Jeremiah 1:5

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

That is not the right way to look at it i reckon, for Acts 17:28 says that all human kind are God's offspring and Psalm 127 says that all children are a heritage of The Lord, no mention of just a few chosen ones and the rest being godless brood.

i believe that every child born is a gift from God and needs to be treated like that. However like the Psalmist points out we are all born and conceived in sin so we have no chance surviving sinless. This is where satan comes in as our father, not before.

This is also the reason why God can judge any person for we started of purely His but we end-up dying to our God given good life and wilfully became children of satan instead.

Wilful sin kills God good life in people, that is why the bible calls unbelieving people dead in sin and redeemed people as being resurrected to newness of life.

RickReads · Nov 1, 2020

Jeshu said:
That is not the right way to look at it i reckon, for Acts 17:28 says that all human kind are God's offspring and Psalm 127 says that all children are a heritage of The Lord, no mention of just a few chosen ones and the rest being godless brood.

i believe that every child born is a gift from God and needs to be treated like that. However like the Psalmist points out we are all born and conceived in sin so we have no chance surviving sinless. This is where satan comes in as our father, not before.

This is also the reason why God can judge any person for we started of purely His but we end-up dying to our God given good life and wilfully became children of satan instead.

Wilful sin kills God good life in people, that is why the bible calls unbelieving people dead in sin and redeemed people as being resurrected to newness of life.

All good points. I don`t disagree. David & Jeremiah were both elect though. I don`t think there would be a very good narrative for someone who didn`t get saved. That`s pretty much what I was thinking about.

Your text says works are foreordained so God in His omniscience knows whosoeverwill and He knows whosoeverwont.

Jesus is YHWH · Nov 1, 2020

RickReads said:
I'll have to think about this one awhile. You got anymore verses? Hard to make a winning argument with one verse.

sure here are some more

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience.

Ephesians 2:3
Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Colossians 1:21
Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds.

Romans 5:10
For if, when we were enemies of God, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life!

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned.

Acts 13:10
and said, "O child of the devil and enemy of all righteousness! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the straight ways of the Lord?

1 John 3:8
The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the very start. This is why the Son of God was revealed, to destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 3:10
By this the children of God are distinguished from the children of the devil: Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

hope this helps !!!

RickReads · Nov 1, 2020

Jesus is YHWH said:
sure here are some more

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience.

Ephesians 2:3
Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Colossians 1:21
Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds.

Romans 5:10
For if, when we were enemies of God, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life!

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned.

Acts 13:10
and said, "O child of the devil and enemy of all righteousness! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the straight ways of the Lord?

1 John 3:8
The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the very start. This is why the Son of God was revealed, to destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 3:10
By this the children of God are distinguished from the children of the devil: Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

hope this helps !!!

Jeshu had a pretty good answer for your verses. See post #389.

Also, I left you a post in your regeneration thread but I forgot to quote you so you won`t get a notification.

Jesus is YHWH · Nov 1, 2020

RickReads said:
Jeshu had a pretty good answer for your verses. See post #389.

Also, I left you a post in your regeneration thread but I forgot to quote you so you won`t get a notification.

I'm heading out the door in a few minutes to go catch some white sea bass in San Francisco bay. I'll pot some pics later

RickReads · Nov 1, 2020

Jesus is YHWH said:
I'm heading out the door in a few minutes to go catch some white sea bass in San Francisco bay. I'll pot some pics later

Hey! Shouldn`t you be going to church. I hope you don`t get swallowed by a big bass :doh:

Jesus is YHWH · Nov 1, 2020

RickReads said:
Hey! Shouldn`t you be going to church

closed I watch it online.

RickReads · Nov 1, 2020

Jesus is YHWH said:
closed I watch it online.

New Covenant Worship Center

All Glory To God · Nov 1, 2020

Jeshu said:
Sorry Scripture tells different than you do.

Acts 17:28 teaches us that humanity is God's offspring, so people are by nature not children of the devil, but become sinful as they grow up.

"For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’"

That is your interpretation of Acts 17:28 and I would dispute that applies to all creation.

By nature we are children of wrath due to the inherent sinful nature and separation from God,so we are not all children of God,only his elect that that have been made right with God through the propitiation of Christ.

Ephesians 2:3
among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Jeshu · Nov 1, 2020

All Glory To God said:
That is your interpretation of Acts 17:28 and I would dispute that applies to all creation.

By nature we are children of wrath due to the inherent sinful nature and separation from God,so we are not all children of God,only his elect that that have been made right with God through the propitiation of Christ.

Ephesians 2:3
among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

What a complete nonsense, the bible doesn't lie. It says clearly in God's word that we are God's offspring. We became children of wrath when we sinned not before that.

It is written in Ezekiel 18 that only those who sin shall die for their sin. A baby hasn't sinned and is therefore not a a child of wrath but becomes one growing up sinning.

You show me one baby that is born a sinner instead of being beautiful and wonderfully made, like psalm 139 teaches. You give the devil far too much power he can only steal what is not rightfully his and destroy and pollute God's offspring turning them in children of satan instead.

All Glory To God · Nov 1, 2020

Jeshu said:
What a complete nonsense, the bible doesn't lie.

I agree the Bible does not lie,you just added to the book of acts that ''all creation'' are children of God. That is not what the scripture says.

It says clearly in God's word that we are God's offspring. We became children of wrath when we sinned not before that.

The saved are children of God,by nature humans are children of wrath Ephesians 2:3

It is written in Ezekiel 18 that only those who sin shall die for their sin.

Civil law,not salvation.

A baby hasn't sinned and is therefore not a a child of wrath but becomes one growing up sinning.

But an unborn person has not accepted Christ as their saviour,that is sin. Another layer to that is an unborn person has not actually done any good,any holiness any righteousness the unborn person has done no positive either.

You show me one baby that is born a sinner instead of being beautiful and wonderfully made, like psalm 139 teaches.

Ephesians 2:3 Gen 8:21 Job 14:4

You give the devil far too much power he can only steal what is not rightfully his and destroy and pollute God's offspring turning them in children of satan instead.

With these beliefs,denying any type of inherited sin I think you are way outside orthodox Christianity in the realm of the cults.

Jeshu · Nov 1, 2020

All Glory To God said:
I agree the Bible does not lie,you just added to the book of acts that ''all creation'' are children of God. That is not what the scripture says.

What does it say? It says that children are His offspring.
Acts 17:28 " ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’"

How you twist God's word to mean different than it says? For where in God's word does it say that babies are born sinful and that God does not knit every human being together in the mother's womb?

For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place,
when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all the days ordained for me were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

All Glory To God said:
Civil law,not salvation.

Nonsense Ezekiel 18 is going up against the Jewish teaching at the time that the children were born sinful because there parents had been sinful but God puts everyone straight including you when He says;

Ezekiel 18:1-3
"The word of the Lord came to me: “What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel:

“‘The parents eat sour grapes,
and the children’s teeth are set on edge’?

“As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child—both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die.

Neither Ephesians 2:3 nor Job 14:4 are talking about babies but grown up sinful people.

You are the one who is in error teaching that babies come from the devil and not from God. You have to take words out of the Scripture and add words to it to make your arguments stick. From the very beginning God made people good and the devil turned them into sinner and made them children of wrath.

Calvinist limited love for mankind

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