The Rapture theory is true?

Timtofly said:

You have no Scriptural proof. You realize you are just speculating, no?

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It is not speculating; a resurrection body is FOREVER. Paul called it immortality and incorruption.

If you can find any scripture anywhere showing someone resurrected into a resurrection body the second time, I want to see it.

Timtofly said:

Adam died spiritually. His spirit, the God image part was taking away and is with God. In Christ we are given the Holy Spirit as a replacement. That is the spiritual part of Adam's punishment.

The other part was Adam died physically and lost his incorruptible body, and was given a corruptible body.

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Did Adam's body drop dead the moment he bit of the forbidden fruit?

You know he didn't. He lived over 900 years.

What you are missing: if Adam's spirit left his body, his body would DROP DEAD, for the human spirit is the LIFE in that body.

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Another translation

CJB
Crying out with a loud voice, Yeshua said, “Father! Into your hands I commit my spirit.” With these words he gave up his spirit.

When someone DIES their spirit leaves the body.

Most of the Christian world believes that because of Adam's sin, all people are conceived and birthed with their spirit SEPARATED or DISCONNECTED from God. God call this being spiritually dead. This does not mean dead as in ceasing to exist or dead as in horizontal and no moving. The only meaning of spiritual death is being separated from God.

Since Adam was in that state - separated from God - when children were born, they were all born in the same STATE of spiritual death. As Paul said, through one man's sin, death (both spiritual and physical) came upon the human race.

Now, with all that in mind, are babies born dead physically? (If they had no spirit, they would be still born.)

Gen. 25:8
AMPC
Then Abraham’s spirit was released, and he died at a good (ample, full) old age, an old man, satisfied and satiated, and was gathered to his people.

GNV
Then Abraham yielded the spirit, and died in a good age, an old man, and of great years, and was gathered to his people.

Gen. 25:17
AMPC
And Ishmael lived 137 years; then his spirit left him, and he died and was gathered to his kindred.

GNV
(And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, an hundred thirty and seven years, and he yielded up the spirit, and died, and was gathered unto his people.)

Genesis 35:29
AMPC And Isaac’s spirit departed; he died and was gathered to his people, being an old man, satisfied and satiated with days; his sons Esau and Jacob buried him.

WEB Isaac gave up the spirit and died, and was gathered to his people, old and full of days. Esau and Jacob, his sons, buried him.

Job 3:11 JUB Why did I not die from the womb? Why did I not give up the spirit when I came out of the belly?

Lam. 1:19 WEB “I called for my lovers, but they deceived me. My priests and my elders gave up the spirit in the city, while they sought food for themselves to refresh their souls. (Other translations say they died or expired.)

Mark 15:39 CJB When the Roman officer who stood facing him saw the way he gave up his spirit, he said, “This man really was a son of God!” [7 other English translations have "spirit." Some have "ghost."]

Acts 5:5 JUB Then Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and gave up the spirit; and great fear came on all those that heard these things.

Acts 12:23 NMB And immediately the angel of the Lord struck him down, because he did not give God the honour. And he was eaten by worms and gave up the spirit.

Some people are so set in what they believe, they can stare at a verse, read the verse, and keep right on believing opposite of what the verse says.

Example: one gentleman said "ONLY GOD can do miracles." Someone showed him the verse where Jesus said that we, the church, would do greater miracles than he did, because He was going back to the Father. He read the verse, then said again: "ONLY GOD can do miracles."

I have shown you verse after verse after verse that states plainly what when someone dies, they yield up their spirit or ghost. Their spirit leaves their body. Will you believe it now, or will you have to wait until you arrive in heaven to know the truth? Our human spirit is what God BREATHED into Adam.

That spirit did not leave Adam when he sinned, else he would have fallen dead. What happened was, ADam's spirit was instantly separated from God.

Have you ever owned a car with a V8 engine? Did you know they can run on only 4 cylinders? I just saw a video of a ford flat head V8 running with one head removed where we could see the pistons moving up and down. It was running on 4 cylinders. We could liken the human spirit without God as running like a V8 with only 4 cylinders firing: it runs, but NO POWER. God designed our human spirit to be connected to HIM. The human spirit can certainly exist and function to give life to bodies being separated from God, but they won't work well: they become a sin generator: as some say, the fallen human "nature."

Adam died physically and lost his incorruptible body, and was given a corruptible body. The truth is, Adam BEGAN to die physically the moment he sinned, but God's creation of the human body was so perfect, Adam lived over 900 years before His body wore out. He was not created with a resurrection body what Jesus has, a flesh and BONE body with no blood. He was created with a flesh and blood body, but since death had not entered, he could have lived forever eating from the tree of life.

Freedm said:

Why don't you tell me, other than the words of Revelation 20, what do you consider the strongest evidence that the righteous are physically resurrected a thousand years prior to the wicked. The reason I say other than the words of Revelation 20, is because clearly there are two very different ways to understand that passage and we've established that, so I want to hear what else you've got.

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Are you saying that Rev. 20 is not the inspired word of God? I doubt it.

I have some questions:
Do you deny the river of life, since it is only found in Revelation?
Do you deny the city foursquare, since it is found only in Revelation?
Do you deny the streets made of gold because they are found only in Revelation?
Do you deny the Great, White Throne judgment, because it is found only in Revelation?
Do you deny the judgment of the nations as told by Jesus, because it is found only in Matthew?
Do you deny that Jesus wept because it is found only in one place?

What I am really asking is simple: why deny Rev. 20 if you are not going to deny all these other things? Why not just believe Rev. 20 the same way you believe the rest of scripture?

Let me guess at your answer: you find other scriptures that seem to contradict Rev. 20 when taken as literal. Am I right?

keras said:

Wow! Now if only you could figure what it is the Lord will use to fulfil all the graphic prophesies about His terrible Day of fiery wrath, real understanding would dawn for you.
Isaiah 30:26a tells us; the sun will suddenly flash seven times brighter than normal. This can only be explained by a Coronal Mass Ejection, something that is known to happen at times. Look at the spaceweather.com site

A big CME will do all that is prophesied for that one literal day.
Before it strikes the earth; the moon will reflect this flash, by shining as bright as the sun. [must be on or near; the new moon phase]
In eight minutes, the entire spectrum of light to microwaves will affect all that half of the earth facing the sun. Which will be centered on the Middle East, as Zephaniah 2:4 informs us.
The Electro-Magnetic waves will disable all communications, vehicles, etc and will cause armed nuke missiles to explode on the launch pad. Psalms 7:12-16
Microwaves will cause tectonic plate shift. Deuteronomy 32:22

The Sixth Seal will be the event that will set the scene for a One World Govt and will allow all of the holy Land to be resettled by the faithful people of God. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35, Romans 9:24-26

I pray that you and all who have believed false theories, will stand firm in your faith thru this ordeal and be proven faithful to receive the great Promises of God to His people. 1 Peter 4:12, 1 Corinthians 3:13-15

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26 Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the Lord bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.

How do you know this will be only a "flash?" Did you not read?

Rev. 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.

I don't see this as a flash. I see it as lasting some amount of time. As for a Coronal Mass Ejection, I think you are guessing. I am guessing when I think the sun appearing as black is a total eclipse. It COULD be, but God could do it another way. I am guessing when I think the blood moon will be a total eclipse of the moon. But God can certainly do it another way. However, I think my guess has just as much merit as yours.

will allow all of the holy Land to be resettled by the faithful people of God. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35, Romans 9:24-26

Eze. 34:
2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel,...

11 For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.
12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.
13 And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.

Did you not read?

Eze. 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

Eze. 39:
25 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

28 Then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

I have never believed your theory. But feel free: if YOU wish to move to Israel, be our guest! They will probably let you in.

iamlamad said:

I have never believed your theory. But feel free: if YOU wish to move to Israel, be our guest! They will probably let you in.

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And I totally reject your 'rapture' theory.
I know that I will go to live in the holy land. By then, all that area will be quite different to what it is now.
I do worry about the many Christians, like you; that I know, who are fixated on being raptured outta here before anything nasty happens.

I know I can't change your mind, but I can say; Please stand firm in your trust in the Lord, because He won't take you away, but He will protect you thru it all. 1 Corinthians 10:14, Isaiah 43:2, +

iamlamad said:

It is not speculating; a resurrection body is FOREVER. Paul called it immortality and incorruption.

If you can find any scripture anywhere showing someone resurrected into a resurrection body the second time, I want to see it.

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There is not a second time, that is what I keep saying. The first and only time was in Christ in 30AD. The incorruptible body is forever. The immortality is the robe of white, glorification. Do you not see the difference between being mortal and being immortal? To the Greeks mortals were men, immortals were gods. Immortal does not mean eternal, it means we are actually God. God is eternal. Greek gods were eternal, no? Not because of their body, it is just an aspect of being a god.

iamlamad said:

Did Adam's body drop dead the moment he bit of the forbidden fruit?

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Now who is quoting Satan? Yes it was changed the moment Adam ate. That was the consequence of disobedience, not the benefit of eating the fruit. Adam physically died. He went from an incorruptible body to a corruptible body. His corruptible body did last for another 800+ years. That is why God shortened the corruptible body to only last 120 years. Later God shortened it to 70 years.

keras said:

And I totally reject your 'rapture' theory.
I know that I will go to live in the holy land. By then, all that area will be quite different to what it is now.
I do worry about the many Christians, like you; that I know, who are fixated on being raptured outta here before anything nasty happens.

I know I can't change your mind, but I can say; Please stand firm in your trust in the Lord, because He won't take you away, but He will protect you thru it all. 1 Corinthians 10:14, Isaiah 43:2, +

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This is a typical response: raptured outta here before anything nasty happens." The truth is, the church will be raptured out just before God's wrath comes with the Day of His wrath. People are dying for their testimony of Jesus. In Portland, just wearing a hat "patriot prayer" got someone shot in the back. It remains to be seen how back things will get in the USA before the rapture. What the church will miss will be the 70th week of Daniel: that is for HIS people, not the Gentile church of today.

How do you get around the two verses that tell us those who are left behind and turn to God will be "overcome?" Somehow, in my mind, "overcome" does not parallel "protect you thru it all." Sure, during the church age, we have been given power over demonic forces. But during the last 42 months, God will give Satan and the Beast authority. That is why the saints will be overcome.

Timtofly said:

Now who is quoting Satan? Yes it was changed the moment Adam ate. That was the consequence of disobedience, not the benefit of eating the fruit. Adam physically died. He went from an incorruptible body to a corruptible body. His corruptible body did last for another 800+ years. That is why God shortened the corruptible body to only last 120 years. Later God shortened it to 70 years.

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You are simply mistaken. What changed was His relationship with God. Before, He was clothed with God's glory, but the glory left. It is not specifically written, but I suspect he was filled with the Holy Spirit, or "anointed" with the Holy Spirit - but the Holy Spirit left with the glory. AS the bible teaches us, he DIED (was separated from God) spiritually. Then, BECAUSE he died spiritual, physical death became a reality.

Since you think he was "immortal", show us a verse. If I see it I will believe it. Did you not understand that the way he could have lived forever was the tree of life he was no longer allowed to eat from? I am guessing you imagine he had a body like Jesus' resurrection body: flesh and bone vs. flesh and blood. No, if that is what you think, it is myth. He had a flesh and blood body and his blood kept him alive.

Timtofly said:

There is not a second time, that is what I keep saying. The first and only time was in Christ in 30AD. The incorruptible body is forever. The immortality is the robe of white, glorification. Do you not see the difference between being mortal and being immortal? To the Greeks mortals were men, immortals were gods. Immortal does not mean eternal, it means we are actually God. God is eternal. Greek gods were eternal, no? Not because of their body, it is just an aspect of being a god.

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And that is where you are mistaken, because you don't understand the difference between the spiritual realm and the physical realm. When God blew the Human spirit into Adam, that spirit was forever. Then when ever conception takes place and a human spirit is formed, that spirit is forever. Our human spirits are created by God to live FOREVER. When our body dies, (both the righteous and unrighteous) the human spirit with the soul slips out of the dead body and keeps right on living, and thinking.

But the moment the spirit leaves the body, GOD takes over. If that person was born again and that spirit was created by God rather than an old Adam spirit from parents - then Angels will escort that spirit to heaven. They don't get a resurrection body then. That is why Paul wrote that those in heaven will come with Jesus to get their new body; all their time in heaven has been in spirit form. They get their new body on resurrection day: God will put the dust together and reform their old body, then CHANGE it to a resurrection body. You should pay attention to Mary and Martha: they knew Lazarus would rise on resurrection day.

You have been told this by nearly everyone on this thread, yet you hold tightly to false theories. This scripture it seems was written just for you:

1 Cor. 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? [Paul is talking about human bodies in this passage.]

36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: [Humans die but God has a plan to quicken that dead human body.]

37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: [The dead body is sown or put in the ground. It was corrupt and will turn to dust, given time. But on resurrection day it will turn to incurruption.]

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: [Paul is talking about resurrection day: our new bodies will be clothed in glory as Adam was.]

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. [Notice that the new resurrection body is not physical any longer, but has been changed to a spiritual body: as Jesus said, flesh and bone, not flesh and blood.]

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [All the righteous will be changed - from natural to spiritual - from corruption to incorruption - from mortal to immortal. This is all, those who have died and those who will remain alive at His 2nd coming.]

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[WHEN? In the future at the sound of a trumpet. NOT when Jesus rose.]

Timtofly said:

So Paul's 1 epistle of Corinthians is Scripture, but 2 Corinthians is not Scripture?

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Please be more specific if you're seeing a definition for either soul or death in 2 Corinthians, and then we can discuss.

Timtofly said:

Because Jesus Christ was bodily raised from the dead. Is it hard to understand that Jesus' resurrection was a physical body?

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What makes you think I don't understand Jesus' resurrection was physical? Did I say that anywhere?

Jesus Christ was raised physically, through which we were raised spiritually.

[EDIT]

iamlamad said:

Are you saying that Rev. 20 is not the inspired word of God? I doubt it.

I have some questions:
Do you deny the river of life, since it is only found in Revelation?
Do you deny the city foursquare, since it is found only in Revelation?
Do you deny the streets made of gold because they are found only in Revelation?
Do you deny the Great, White Throne judgment, because it is found only in Revelation?
Do you deny the judgment of the nations as told by Jesus, because it is found only in Matthew?
Do you deny that Jesus wept because it is found only in one place?

What I am really asking is simple: why deny Rev. 20 if you are not going to deny all these other things? Why not just believe Rev. 20 the same way you believe the rest of scripture?

Let me guess at your answer: you find other scriptures that seem to contradict Rev. 20 when taken as literal. Am I right?

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What makes you think I deny anything in Revelation 20?

iamlamad said:

The truth is, the church will be raptured out just before God's wrath comes with the Day of His wrath

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But that is not what the Bible says.
We are told to endure until the end; Matthew 24:13, Revelation 14:12

iamlamad said:

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[WHEN? In the future at the sound of a trumpet. NOT when Jesus rose.]

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At the last Trumpet blast, made to call all the dead to Judgment, as described in Revelation 20:11-15
There will be many still alive at the end of the Millennium, those born during and maybe those martyrs brought back to life; Revelation 20:4

But to think 1 Cor 15:50-56 happens before then, is serious error.

iamlamad said:

You are simply mistaken. What changed was His relationship with God. Before, He was clothed with God's glory, but the glory left. It is not specifically written, but I suspect he was filled with the Holy Spirit, or "anointed" with the Holy Spirit - but the Holy Spirit left with the glory. AS the bible teaches us, he DIED (was separated from God) spiritually. Then, BECAUSE he died spiritual, physical death became a reality.

Since you think he was "immortal", show us a verse. If I see it I will believe it. Did you not understand that the way he could have lived forever was the tree of life he was no longer allowed to eat from? I am guessing you imagine he had a body like Jesus' resurrection body: flesh and bone vs. flesh and blood. No, if that is what you think, it is myth. He had a flesh and blood body and his blood kept him alive.

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Adam did not have a normal body, unless you think God taking Eve out of Adam's body is normal, or just symbolic and not literal? Adam was created to resemble God in all 3 aspects, not borrow God to be a complete being. Adam did not have an incorruptible, mortal, nor immortal body. Adam was the image of God. He definitely did not have a corruptible body that needed anything, and was capable of sin. That then died when the Holy Spirit left him.

iamlamad said:

[Notice that the new resurrection body is not physical any longer, but has been changed to a spiritual body: as Jesus said, flesh and bone, not flesh and blood.]

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It is a body. It is better than your current body. The change already happened for those who have gone, raised in Christ, before us. The dead have raised first. If you are adamant that there is nothing physical about Paradise, but it is just a ghost of the Garden of Eden, that is your choice. It is still physical and created as physical as all of creation. This earth was as much spiritual as heaven was, until Adam disobeyed God, and God removed the spiritual aspect of creation from the earth. It is hidden behind a veil of blindness to those born of Adam.

Freedm said:

Please be more specific if you're seeing a definition for either soul or death in 2 Corinthians, and then we can discuss.

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The whole 5th chapter is a good start.

Freedm said:

What makes you think I don't understand Jesus' resurrection was physical? Did I say that anywhere?

Jesus Christ was raised physically, through which we were raised spiritually.

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And your body that is claimed "spiritual" is permanent and way better than you present body. It is the only incorruptible body you will get. The change was the second you left this body for the body in Paradise. 2 Corinthians 5.

Timtofly said:

The whole 5th chapter is a good start.

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That chapter defines neither soul nor death, and since you can't produce any source for the definitions you espouse, let me tell you where I get my definitions from.

SOUL

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

A "soul" is literally a living creature. Even the birds of the air and the worms in the dirt are souls. Any creature that has the breath of life. Without the breath of life we're just a lifeless body, made from dust, but with the breath of life we are a living soul.

Nowhere does scripture tell us that a soul is a conscious spiritual entity that lives inside our body. Only Hollywood tells us that.

DEATH

Job 14:10-12
But man dies and is laid away; indeed he breathes his last and where is he? As water disappears from the sea, and a river becomes parched and dries up, so man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor be roused from their sleep

You're right that death is like sleep, but unlike you, Job tells us that a dead man continues to sleep "till the heavens are no more". We don't get our spiritual bodies until the resurrection on the last day. The fantasy of going straight to heaven (or paradise) upon death, is just that, a fantasy.