Observations About Free-willian Bible Interpretation And Free-willian Writings

Kermos · Oct 11, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
I asked:
"Since you claim "yes", please define and explain the biblical meaning of "election"."

You need to answer questions. That was the discussion.

You ignore answers. The word "election" is a synonym for "choice". The word "elect" is a synonym for "choose".

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

But, your math is quite off. When Jesus spent His last evening and Supper, there were 12 disciples at the beginning, and after Judas left, we all know that 2 more didn't show up. Please read the text more carefully.

Matt 26-
17 On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus and asked, âWhere do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?â
18 He replied, âGo into the city to a certain man and tell him, âThe Teacher says: My appointed time is near. I am going to celebrate the Passover with my disciples at your house.ââ 19 So the disciples did as Jesus had directed them and prepared the Passover. 20 When evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the Twelve.

Just read Matt 26:20.

Read Matt 26:20.

Wrong. No one other than "the twelve" were "specificially identified" at the supper.

And, If for some reason you don't like ex-tax collectors, how about Mark?

Mark 14-
12 On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesusâ disciples asked him, âWhere do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?â
13 So he sent two of his disciples, telling them, âGo into the city, and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him.
14 Say to the owner of the house he enters, âThe Teacher asks: Where is my guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?â
15 He will show you a large room upstairs, furnished and ready. Make preparations for us there.â
16 The disciples left, went into the city and found things just as Jesus had told them. So they prepared the Passover.
17 When evening came, Jesus arrived with the Twelve.

If you don't like those who abandon others, then consider Luke the physician.

Luke 22-
7 Then came the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed.
8 Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, âGo and make preparations for us to eat the Passover.â
9 âWhere do you want us to prepare for it?â they asked.
10 He replied, âAs you enter the city, a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him to the house that he enters,
11 and say to the owner of the house, âThe Teacher asks: Where is the guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?â
12 He will show you a large room upstairs, all furnished. Make preparations there.â
13They left and found things just as Jesus had told them. So they prepared the Passover.
14 When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table.

If these 3 verses don't convince you, how about this:

Matt 10-
These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.

The Bible only identified 12 as apostles before Jesus was resurrected.

Luke 6:13- When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles:

So, there were 12 disciples/apostles at the last supper. And one left, named Judas. So, there were just 11 left.

I rest my case.

Your "case" is mathematically off because you are scripturally in error. None of the scripture you cited states the Apostles were the only disciples. There were more that 12 in the room. There were more disciples in the room than just the disciples called Apostles according to Luke and the Apostle Peter and all the Apostles because no Apostle spoke against Peter's claim of men "who have accompanied" the disciples "all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among" the disciples "beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from" the disciples.

The disciples specifically identified Matthias and Joseph as two men who "accompanied us all the time" - see that it is all the time they were with Jesus as described here:

"'Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias." (Acts 1:21-23)

In the room where the Holy Spirit came upon the disciples at Pentecost occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13) were disciples that recognized Matthias and Joseph as disciples that were with them from the beginning!

That puts Matthias and Joseph In the room described throughout John chapters 13 to 17 occupied by Jesus and His disciples, so after Judas left the room there were at least 13 disciples in the room!

FreeGrace2 · Oct 11, 2020

Kermos said: ↑
"When you wrote "Election is to service, not salvation", I declare that you impose your limits against the Word of God."

My response to your comment:
"Oh, you just sound so authorative. Yet, you have no authority to such silliness. I'm NOT limiting God in any way. Rather, I'm revealing God's Word. In EVERY example, the election is to service.

And, despite your claims to the contrary, you have NOT shown ANY verse that says people are chosen for salvation unconditionally."

Kermos said:
You ignore answers. The word "election" is a synonym for "choice". The word "elect" is a synonym for "choose".

I have to assume you are responding to my post back in June 21. Kinda late to the party.

I pointed out that you have given NO verses that clearly say that salvation is by election.

And yet you claim that I "ignore answers". Are you kidding?? You haven't provided any answers to my questions.

And you don't need to define words. I think everyone knows that elect and choose are synonymous.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16)

How about reading your context FIRST, before embarrassing yourself. Jesus wasn't speaking to all of humanity, but to 11 men. And, what did He choose them for? To spread the gospel to the world. See Matt 28:19,20. The Great Commission was given to the 11 apostles as marching orders to spread the gospel to the world.

How do you explain John 6:70,71 in which Jesus told the 12 disciples that He had chosen them, and then noted that one of them was a devil!

- Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus.

What does this sentence mean?

Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)!

Maybe you missed it, but John 17:20 doesn't occur in the context of John 15.

Your "case" is mathematically off because you are scripturally in error. None of the scripture you cited states the Apostles were the only disciples.

I never said they were. Acts 1:15 indicates that there were approximately 120 disciples when Jesus went to heaven on a cloud. However, the Great Commission was given specifically to the 11, who were also called apostles. Acts 1:2

There were more that 12 in the room.

Prove it.

There were more disciples in the room than just the disciples called Apostles according to Luke and the Apostle Peter and all the Apostles because no Apostle spoke against Peter's claim of men "who have accompanied" the disciples "all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among" the disciples "beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from" the disciples.

Prove it. Use Scripture. In the upper room, there is NO mention of anyone other than the 12.

The disciples specifically identified Matthias and Joseph as two men who "accompanied us all the time"

It would be quite absurd to claim that the verse meant that there were more thant he 12 12 that were with Jesus all the time. Yes, there were more that accompanied Jesus than just the 12, but Scripture is quite clear that a number of times there were JUST the 12 present.

Kermos · Oct 15, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
You need to lighten up some.

No way, not when salvation is at stake!

You also need to learn what sarcasm is for.

Sarcasm does not belong in discussion of salvation.

Ha. In my previous post, I proved that there were ONLY 12 apostles at the last supper.

Your false assertions have been waylayed, please see my previous post.

Of course they do. But the overarching FACT is that in EVERY context, the issue is service, NOT salvation.

The overarching fact is that election is NOT exclusively service because election includes salvation.

Lord Jesus speaks of salvation here since chosen and elected are synonyms:

"For many are called, but few [are] chosen." (Matthew 22:14)

Election can be service.

Election can be salvation.

Election can be both salvation and service.

Yes, Jesus Christ is the Chosen One to provide salvation. This is a choice for service, not salvation. Or are you going to argue that Jesus was chosen for salvation??

Proving that Jesus was chosen for service to God.

How many verses would you like to read that refer to Jesus as Servant?

It does not change the fact the Jesus, God's Servant, said "For many are called, but few [are] chosen." (Matthew 22:14)

Election can be both salvation and service.

Yes. Thank you.

You narrowly define election by developing a man made doctrine.

How about STAYING in the context of Eph 1? John 6:29 is not being referred to in Eph 1.

And Eph 1:19 DEFINES who the "us" are in v.4. I'm not going to quote either verse. I expect you to do some research.

Scripture needs to be taken with scripture, so there is a relationship between Ephesians 1 and John 6:29.

I am going to tell you that the "us" is Ephesians 1:4 is the Assembly of God. This means that the "us" is chosen unto salvation by God, that is, to be holy and blameless before God. I tell you who the "us" is because it makes a difference in whom you believe, the gospel of Christ (which is what God has me describe) or a false gospel.

Gee. Who knew? By "manifested", it should be rather obvious that the verse shows that salvation was made obvious to everyone. If that isn't an offer, then you just don't understand what an offer even is.

Here's a question for you. If God ONLY chose to save certain people, why would He manifest saving grace to everyone? Calvinism cannot provide any kind of reasonable answer to this question. The ONLY REASONABLE answer is that saving grace has been manifested to everyone because Christ died for everyone, and everyone has the choice of accepting the free grace of eternal life or not.

But I'm sure you'll come up with some kind of non-sensical explanation.

Now, God has had me place the scriptural explanation to you.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 15, 2020

Kermos said:
The overarching fact is that election is NOT exclusively service because election includes salvation.

Then please prove your claim with verses that actually and clearly say so.

Lord Jesus speaks of salvation here since chosen and elected are synonyms:
"For many are called, but few [are] chosen." (Matthew 22:14)

Unfortunately, you are only "seeing" salvation being mentioned, when in fact, Jesus didn't even use the word. And the verse you misrepresented here (Matt 22:14) isn't even about salvation, as you presume. It's about service. And it's in a context about service. Since the improperly dressed man was IN the banquet should convince you that he was saved, otherwise, he wouldn't have been allowed in.

But, being improperly dressed shows that he wasn't following the rules. In Jesus' day, the guests were provided the "wedding clothes" to wear at the banquet. The man at issue didn't follow the rules and wear what was provided.

What's the teaching here? Those believers who don't take advantage of what God provides all believers have not been chosen for service. He was called (invited) to service, but he didn't answer that call.

Election can be service.

All verses that address purpose are to service.

Election can be salvation.

You haven't provided ANY verses that teach that salvation is by election.

Election can be both salvation and service.

Your claim. Not the Bible's claim.

It does not change the fact the Jesus, God's Servant, said "For many are called, but few [are] chosen." (Matthew 22:14)

This verse does not support your conclusion.

Election can be both salvation and service.

Please back up your claim from Scripture.

You narrowly define election by developing a man made doctrine.

No, I have quoted many verses where the obvious goal of election is service. And you have provided NO verses that clearly define election as to salvation.

Scripture needs to be taken with scripture, so there is a relationship between Ephesians 1 and John 6:29.

Then please explain how. I'm not going to take your word for anything. You NEED to use Scripture that plainly says what you claim.

I am going to tell you that the "us" is Ephesians 1:4 is the Assembly of God. This means that the "us" is chosen unto salvation by God, that is, to be holy and blameless before God. I tell you who the "us" is because it makes a difference in whom you believe, the gospel of Christ (which is what God has me describe) or a false gospel.

You are half right. That means you are half WRONG. That's the problem in evangelicalism today. They get parts of Scripture right, but then get a lot WRONG as well.

The reason the "us" in Eph 1:4 is the "Assemby of God" (by that, I assume you mean saved believers) is because Eph 1:19 actually defines who the "us" are, which is: "us who believe".

So, your second sentence is WRONG, because Eph 1:4 says that God chose US, that being saved believers. So the verse CANNOT be saying that God chose anyone for salvation, since by DEFINITION (v.19) the "us" is "us who believe".

If Eph 1:4 said "God chose us to believe", then you'd have a point. But it doesn't say that. In fact, it says very plainly and clearly that "God chose US (saved believers) to be holy and blameless". So the purpose of the election of believers is for service.

Here's a passage that is crystal clear about the purpose of election:

1 Peter 1-
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

The red words speak of God's election very clearly.

The blue words speak of the purpose of election, again very clearly.

Your argument is against Scripture.

Kermos · Oct 17, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
Oh, you just sound so authorative. Yet, you have no authority to such silliness. I'm NOT limiting God in any way. Rather, I'm revealing God's Word. In EVERY example, the election is to service.

And, despite your claims to the contrary, you have NOT shown ANY verse that says people are chosen for salvation unconditionally.

It doesn't matter what you claim. Your views are directly Calvinist.

And I believe these same things. But regarding your view of election, it IT definitely Calvinistic.

Then just prove that in each of the examples I noted, the context shows that election is for salvation. That should be rather easy, if the contexts are about that.

What you fail to understand is that by electing/choosing believers out of the world, they are ALREADY saved. All believers are saved, if you didn't know that.

So, once again, you just proved my view, and refuted your own.

You can keep repeating "which includes salvation" as much as you want. But no amount of repetition makes your claim true. You cannot prove your claim. All you've done is repeat your claim.

I've proven BY EXAMPLES in Scripture, that election is for service.

Jesus doesn't need salvation.
The entire nation of Israel was never saved.
The Bible makes no statements at all about angels needing salvation.
In the NT, it is believers (the "us" of 1:4) that are the one chosen.
Even Paul's famous road to Damascus encounter was FOR SERVICE.

Acts 9-
15 But the Lord said to Ananias, âGo! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.
16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.â

The red words are NOT about salvation, but about service. Specifically, evangelism.

And Paul himself describes the event in his personal testimony as being appointed to service:

Acts 20:24 - However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me - the task of testifying to the gospel of Godâs grace.

Acts 22:10 - "'What shall I do, Lord?' I asked. "'Get up,' the Lord said, 'and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.â

Acts 22:14, 15 - 14 âThen he said: âThe God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15 You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard.

Acts 26:16 - âNow get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me.

Acts 27:23 - Last night an angel of the God whose I am and whom I serve stood beside me

Rom 1:9 - God, whom I serve with my whole heart in preaching the gospel of His Son, is my witness how constantly I remember you in my prayers at all times; and I pray that now at last nay Godâs will the way may be opened for me to come to you.

Rom 15:17 - Therefore I glory in Christ Jesus in my service to God.

1 Cor 3:5 - What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believeâas the Lord has assigned to each his task.

1 Cor 4:1 - This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed.

2 Cor 4:5 - For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesusâ sake.

2 Cor 11:8 - I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you.

Gal 1:10 - A I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Gal 1:16 - to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man

Eph 3:7,8,9 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of Godâs grace given me through the working of His power 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lordâs
people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.

Col 1:25 - I have become its (the Church) servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullnessâ direct reference to Acts 9:15

1 Tim 1:12 - I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service.

1 Tim 2:7 - And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostleâI am telling the truth, I am not lyingâand a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.

2 Tim 1:9 - He has saved us and called us to a holy lifeânot because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

2 Tim 1:11 - And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher.

You may stop repeating your mantra. Jesus chose the 11 saved apostles "out of this world". He certainly didn't choose Judas "out of this world". When He said the words of John 15:19, He was speaking to 11 apostles.

Bearing fruit is directly about service to God.

Again, this is merely your opinion. How about addressing EACH of the verses above regarding Paul's encounter with Christ on the road to Damascus and explain where salvation is included in his being a chosen instrument.

The words "chosen instrument" proves that election is for service. Instruments serve the one using the instrument.

And none of this advanced your own opinions. Not even a wee bit.

OK, let's take this parable in its OBVIOUS presentation. The kingdom of heaven would be heaven itself. And both bad and good people were invited to it. iow, the gospel is for everyone, not just the "good", but also the "bad". And one dude actually got in who was improperly dressed. If your interpretation was true, then we have an unbeliever IN heaven itself. This is sheer nonsense.

I conclude you do not understand Oriental and ancient weddings. The groom's father (a king or high ranking person) would provide the wedding clothes to the guests. They were expected to wear them to the wedding. Those who didn't wear them in the parable refer to believers who weren't obedient. Didn't follow the rules.

Now, v.22. Many are called (invited) but few are chosen (selected). This means all believers are invited to serve their Savior, but only a few actually do so.

You may repeat this as many times as you can, but it doesn't change a thing. You have so far provided ZERO verses that make this statement.

Thanks for making my point. God chooses/elects for good works. That is service.

Apparently you don't understand this. In Jesus' day, rabbis didn't choose their students (disciples). People chose to whom they would follow. So what Jesus did was not only highly unusual, but totally opposite of the custom of the day.

So Jn 15:16 is emphasizing that what Jesus did was opposite of the usual custom.

I believe in Christ, and I folow Christ's doctine, and it is Christian's that follow Christ's doctrine.

Election can refer to service. Election can refer to salvation. Election means choice.

When you write "What you fail to understand is that by electing/choosing believers out of the world, they are ALREADY saved" you add to the Word of God (an endeavor with eternal consequences), and here is the explanation! Jesus did not indicate disciples were saved before He chosees people as disciples, in fact, to the contrary of your writing, Lord Jesus says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:16) which means chose for salvation - the world is heading to destruction with all unbelievers - wo when Jesus says "I chose you out of the world" then He means salvation.

In Ephesians 1:4, the "us" refers people chosen by God for salvation.

Ephesians 1:4, with the surrounding passage, is about salvation.

In Ephesians 1:4, the "us" refers to the people chosen from the foundation of the world by God, so this means that while the chosen people are unbelieving the people are chosen; in other words, a chosen person is born unbelieving then at some point God causes the person to believe in the Christ (John 6:29), and the chosen person joins the Assembly of God!

In Ephesians 1:3, the immediately prior verse, "Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ" Paul wrote. Salvation is clearly in view as blessing of God in Christ!!!

In Ephesians 1:5, the very next verse, Paul recorded "He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will" - that is about salvation!

As I pointed out two posts of mine ago, scripture clearly delineates that at least Peter, Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Thomas, Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, Thaddaeus, Simon, Matthias, and Joseph were present at the dinner recorded in John chapters 13 - 17 where Lord Jesus said "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Bearing fruit is the Spirit of God at work in the believer (John 3:21 and John 15:5).

In the parable recorded in Matthew 22:2-14, the person not wearing wedding clothes at the feast represents an unbeliever who had been summoned (called) but not elect (chosen). You claim the person was a believer, but the person could not be a believer because Lord Jesus says "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one" (John 10:27-30).

Further, when Jesus says chosen in "many are called, but few [are] chosen" (Matthew 22:14), there Jesus is referring to salvation!

Regardless of what some rabbis did in Jesus' day, Lord Jesus still chooses His own unto salvation for He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19 which includes salvation) and the Word of God is speaking to all believers in all time, after all, the Apostle John recorded these precious words of the Christ (John 17:20)!

You are very dismissive of the Word of God, and Jesus Christ is the Word of God.

You follow man-made doctrine, that is, your own doctrine.

JESUS IS EMPHASIZING HIS POWER AS GOD WITH THE WORDS "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16!

FreeGrace2 · Oct 17, 2020

Kermos said:
I believe in Christ, and I folow Christ's doctine, and it is Christian's that follow Christ's doctrine.

I will remind you of what I posted:
"Rather, I'm revealing God's Word. In EVERY example, the election is to service.

And, despite your claims to the contrary, you have NOT shown ANY verse that says people are chosen for salvation unconditionally.

It doesn't matter what you claim. Your views are directly Calvinist."

Election can refer to service. Election can refer to salvation. Election means choice.

No, an election is an appointment, not just a "choice". So, the doctrine of election is about an appointment to service.

1 Cor 1:26-27 is a very clear example.

And, where is your example of someone being elected to savlation in Scripture?

When you write "What you fail to understand is that by electing/choosing believers out of the world, they are ALREADY saved" you add to the Word of God (an endeavor with eternal consequences), and here is the explanation!

I'm adding nothing. I am pointing out the truth about election. It is a very misunderstood doctrine, twisted by Calvinists, unfortunately.

Jesus did not indicate disciples were saved before He chosees people as disciples, in fact, to the contrary of your writing, Lord Jesus says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:16) which means chose for salvation - the world is heading to destruction with all unbelievers - wo when Jesus says "I chose you out of the world" then He means salvation.

That would just be your opinion. The 1 disciples were chosen "out of this world" for service to Him, specifically. I've already shown that Judas was specifically chosen to betray Him, per John 6:64, 70,71.

The disciples were also designated apostles.
Luke 6:13 - When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles

As to service, the remaining 11 apostles were chosen to "make disciples and teach them". You know, the Great Commission. It was given specifically to the 11 remaining disciples to evangelize the world. That's service.

In Ephesians 1:4, the "us" refers people chosen by God for salvation.

I already gave you Eph 1:19, the verse that clearly defines who the "us" are. Us who believe, is who.

So, 1:4 CAN'T be about salvation, since the "us" are ALREADY SAVED.

The verse teaches that God chose us believers...to be holy and blameless. Another way to communicate this truth is:
God chose believers for service.

In Ephesians 1:4, the "us" refers to the people chosen from the foundation of the world by God, so this means that while the chosen people are unbelieving the people are chosen; in other words, a chosen person is born unbelieving then at some point God causes the person to believe in the Christ (John 6:29), and the chosen person joins the Assembly of God!

No, Eph 1:19 REFUTES your erroneous definition of "us" in v4.

In Ephesians 1:3, the immediately prior verse, "Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ" Paul wrote. Salvation is clearly in view as blessing of God in Christ!!![/QUOTE]
Again, the "us" here ALSO refers to SAVED PEOPLE.

In Ephesians 1:5, the very next verse, Paul recorded "He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will" - that is about salvation!

Again, the "us" here ALSO refers to saved people. Who will God adopt as sons? Believers.

As I pointed out two posts of mine ago, scripture clearly delineates that at least Peter, Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Thomas, Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, Thaddaeus, Simon, Matthias, and Joseph were present at the dinner recorded in John chapters 13 - 17 where Lord Jesus said "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

There is NOTHING about salvation in John 15:19.

In the parable recorded in Matthew 22:2-14, the person not wearing wedding clothes at the feast represents an unbeliever who had been summoned (called) but not elect (chosen).

Excuse me, but that guy was IN IN IN the banquet hall, likened to the "kingdom of God" in v.2. Are will be NO unbelievers at the wedding banquet of God's Son, the Bridegroom.

You claim the person was a believer, but the person could not be a believer because Lord Jesus says "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one" (John 10:27-30).

Please don't conflate different passages. Stick to ONE passage at a time. John 10 is NOT related to Matt 22 in any way.

All who came to the banquet were invited. They CAME. They believed. That's the analogy. But the wrongly dressed man didn't follow the rules and didn't wear what the king provided, wedding clothes. Being thrown out is analogous to losing eternal reward.

Further, when Jesus says chosen in "many are called, but few [are] chosen" (Matthew 22:14), there Jesus is referring to salvation!

Is your claim here your proof?? lol

Every believer is called (invited) to serve the Lord, but only a few will actually serve Him. That's what 22:14 means.

Regardless of what some rabbis did in Jesus' day, Lord Jesus still chooses His own unto salvation for He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19 which includes salvation) and the Word of God is speaking to all believers in all time, after all, the Apostle John recorded these precious words of the Christ (John 17:20)!

The error that you keep making is to ASSUME that "choose" means "choose for salvation". This paragraph of yours is just full of your assumptions and opinion.

But you have NOT YET provided ANY verse that says that we are saved by election.

You are very dismissive of the Word of God, and Jesus Christ is the Word of God.

Oh, no. I'm very dismissive of your opinions, because you have NO verses that back up your opinions.

You follow man-made doctrine, that is, your own doctrine.

Then prove that by providing even 1 verse that says what you claim. And by that, I mean a verse that ties the word election to salvation.

All you've done is a knee-jerk reaction to the word "elect" or "choose", thinking it MEANS to salvation.

JESUS IS EMPHASIZING HIS POWER AS GOD WITH THE WORDS "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16!

Yeah, I got that. But you don't find anything about the purpose of election being salvation in John 15.

So, what do you find in ch 15? Service. Lots of it.

2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunesso that it will be even more fruitful.
4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

Notice the red words carefully. What does "fruit" refer to? Salvation? No. Service.

Jesus' apostles were chosen for service.

Matt 4:19 - And he said to them, “Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.”

That's service.

The only way you will convince me that election is to salvation is IF IF IF you provide a verse that actually says so.

Kermos · Oct 27, 2020

TibiasDad said:
As I've said before, my comments were only about the link that you posted as evidence, which appears to be where you've cut and pasted many of your remarks in this thread. The endless points and subpoints therein are a series of propositional statements that assume points of reference and evidence not established. In other words they are circular statements that assume the truth that you are seeking to prove to be truth by means of said statements. I have no issue with scripture in any amount, I do have issues with your "many words" without substantiation of their veracity.

As an aside, I searched the One Spirit and One Heart in God - Table of Contents site in an attempt to understand the source of this information and was only able to deduce the it is an Assembly of God site but without any specific person or denominational ownership accredited to it, so the source behind the site is ambiguous, and thus to my mind, not a credible source of information.

John 15 is spoken to the remaining 11 disciples after Judas Iscariot left. And the 12 were often separated from the rest of the followers, and Peter, James and John were often pulled aside from the other nine disciples. So the argument that Mathias and Joseph were always at every event is easily falsified. (Matt 10:1, 11:1,17:2, Luke 9:1, Mk 6:7, 9:2,35)

Doug

The source of the writing at Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor (the link in Post #7 of this thread to which I suspect you keep referring) is based on the Word of God. Logic and linguistics are included in the essay. There is a cumulative effect of the points and subpoints. This proves that there was no free will for Adam nor Eve in the creation account.

The Word of God is credible, and you discount the Word of God in your postings. After all, I repeatedly indicate criticality of the Word of God.

None of the citations you provide indicate that the 12 apostles are the only disciples prior to Jesus' crucifixion.

Now, here are a couple of passages that indicate there were more that 12 disciples prior to Jesus' crucifixion:

"And when day came, He called His disciples to Him and chose twelve of them, whom He also named as apostles" (Luke 6:13)

So, out of the population of Jesus' disciples, Jesus chose twelve disciples who He named as apostles (but the apostles were still part of the population of Jesus' disciples).

"Now after this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them in pairs" (Luke 10:1 as the prelude to Luke 10:1-24)

70 is quite a number that Jesus appointed!

When Jesus transfigured in front of Peter, James and John (Matthew 17:1) - there were still 9 other apostles someplace AND there is every scriptural reason for children of God to believe that Matthias and Joseph were with the other 9 apostles since Peter, after Jesus' ascension, said "it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us ? one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection" (Acts 1:21-22).

You attempt to illegitimately limit the audience for the words of the Lord as recorded by John the Apostle in chapter 15.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

Kermos · Oct 28, 2020

bling said:
I never said: âScripture says: âman has free willââ You point out âGod has a willâ, but scripture also talks about manâs will and manâs desires which are not Godâs will and desires.

You quote: ââ¦those also who believe in Me through their wordâ gives all the indications of it being manâs choice.

I ask you again: âWhat scripture do you use to proof God has free will?â

When Jesus says "those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20), the word "choice" is absent - there is no concept of "choice" by man represented therein.

The Lord says that man believing in Jesus whom the Father has sent is the work of God - righteous belief is the work of God (John 6:29). To quote the Word of God "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

So, the "believe" in John 17:20 is the work of God - not man - the work of God as recorded in John 6:29.

Your question seems diversionary and unprompted, so I am not interested in dealing with it - at least at this time. I'm sticking with whether man has a "free will" or a "bond will".

Can man choose God? The answer is No.

Choice is a work. Man is not saved by works - and that includes man choosing.

Man-made doctrine of free-will leads to people denying God - God's exclusive domain in man's salvation. Free-willians claim to do that which God says mankind cannot do.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

bling · Oct 28, 2020

Kermos said:
When Jesus says "those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20), the word "choice" is absent - there is no concept of "choice" by man represented therein.

Does everyone in the audience of these teachers of the word, “believe”? Some people are blamed for not believing, so could they believe?

Kermos said:
The Lord says that man believing in Jesus whom the Father has sent is the work of God - righteous belief is the work of God (John 6:29). To quote the Word of God "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Jesus told the audience that asked: John 6: 28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires? And Jesus answered this group: “to believe in the one he has sent”, yet many walked away, at this time, finding Jesus’ teaching hard, but could they have believed? If they could not believe then Jesus’ answer should have been: “You can do nothing”.

Kermos said:
So, the "believe" in John 17:20 is the work of God - not man - the work of God as recorded in John 6:29.

That is not in the context of, John 6:28-29 is not saying that at all, since in the context the people are asking about the work they need to do, which is a fair question and Jesus answered them. You would have Jesus not answering the crowd and going off on some philosophically statement saying what God does?

Kermos said:
Can man choose God? The answer is No.

Do the elect ever choose God?

Kermos said:
Choice is a work. Man is not saved by works - and that includes man choosing.

Do you consider worship to be work?
How would free-will lead to people denying God, if they did not have free-will to do so?

Free-will allows humans to obtain and grow Godly type Love and thus become like God Himself in that they have Godly type Love.

Kermos said:
There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

Jesus chose the 12.

There is no glory, no righteousness, no holiness, no honor, and no worthiness in a human for selfish reasons wimping out, giving up and surrendering when he comes to his senses and turning to the father which is at his elbow. The sinner at that point is still hating God, but is just willing to accept undeserved charity from his enemy.

Kermos · Oct 31, 2020

5thKingdom said:
-----------

In John 6 Jesus teaches that NO MAN can come to Him
unless the Father first "draws" them. And ALL MEN the
Father draws "shall come" to Him... and He will lose NONE
of "His Sheep")

When the disciples realized that Jesus was teaching
salvation by "election" many of them abandoned Him
[John 6:65-66]

Now WHY in the world would anyone abandon the Son of God?
The answer is obvious (like most men today) they did not WANT
a Sovereign God. They wanted a salvation program where MAN
is Sovereign (not God). They wanted a plan where MAN could
choose when/where/how they are saved.

Joh 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me
draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;
and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Joh 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me,
that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing,
but should raise it up again at the last day.

Generally speaking there are TWO GOSPELS in the church.

(1) The Gospel that says God is Sovereign and "elects"
who He chooses. And Jesus PAID for all the sins of
"His Sheep". So their debt is PAID and there is no
condemnation for "His Sheep".

(2) The gospel that says Jesus PAID for the sins of everyone
ever born (even those who never hear the Gospel) and MEN
in the Lake of Fire are there because (a) they must PAY for
the same sins that Jesus paid - making the Atonement of
no effect or (b) they are paying for the SINGLE SIN of not
"accepting" Jesus.

But the Bible is clear that men must pay for their own sins
(every idle word) and even their sinful thoughts. So option
(b) is not even a possibility. Therefore, the Atonement was
not effective (or at least conditional on MAN'S "work")
of "accepting" or "rejecting" Christ.

BTW... the mental process of "accepting" or "rejecting"
is definitely a "work". It's not a work like digging ditches
but it's a mental work - and many people make a living by
"working" making decisions.

/

Very well composed, 5thKingdom!!! I thank the Lord for your post!!! Your post is very pleasant to read.

The claimed "choice" toward Jesus is most definitely a "work" - neurons fired - and that is "work".

The Apostle Paul wrote "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Every time a self-willed person (2 Peter 2:9-10) proclaims their own work of a "choice" toward Jesus, such a person boasts; moreover, such a person claims ownership over belief in Jesus which Jesus reserves unto God, so a burglary in progress occurs yet the burglar, the criminal, the "such a person" can only fail to destruction apart from God's grace.

More about belief, since you quote John chapter 6, I'd like to add when Jesus said "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Belief in Jesus whom the Father has sent is the work of God.

The finished work at the cross is proclaimed by the children of God, Lord Jesus Christ's sheep!

"In all your ways acknowledge the Lord, And He will make your paths straight" (Proverbs 3:6).

And this acknowledging the Lord along with ways/paths matches up beautifully with

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me" (John 14:6)

FreeGrace2 · Oct 31, 2020

Kermos said:
Every time a self-willed person (2 Peter 2:9-10) proclaims their own work of a "choice" toward Jesus, such a person boasts

I challenge you to prove your claim here. How is a decision or choice any kind of "work"? Especially in the biblical sense. Thanks.

moreover, such a person claims ownership over belief in Jesus which Jesus reserves unto God, so a burglary in progress occurs yet the burglar, the criminal, the "such a person" can only fail to destruction apart from God's grace.

This seems about as confused as what 5th kingdom posts.

More about belief, since you quote John chapter 6, I'd like to add when Jesus said "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

If you would consider the context, the crowd asked Jesus what work was required to earn eternal life (v.27). Jesus used their own word in a "tongue-in-cheek" response by saying, "the work God requires is to believe in His Son".

Both Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9 clearly reject that faith or believing is a work.

Belief in Jesus whom the Father has sent is the work of God.

Please read Rom 10:10. "Man believes from the hearrt". It doesn't say "man believes when God causes him to believe from the heart".

5thKingdom · Nov 1, 2020

Kermos said:
The overarching fact is that election is NOT exclusively service because election includes salvation. It does not change the fact the Jesus, God's Servant, said "For many are called, but few [are] chosen." (Matthew 22:14) Election can be both salvation and service.

Of course "choosing" or "electing" CERTAIN people to be part
of "His Sheep" based only on God's Good Pleasure PROVES
those people were predestined for salvation AND service.

This fact is made crystal clear in MANY different Scriptures...
besides the CONTEXT of the Gospel of the Bible that salvation
of the "elect" from EVERY Saint in the Pre-Flood Kingdom and
EVERY "elect" in the Jewish Kingdom and EVERY "elect" in the Christian Kingdom and EVERY one of the "wise virgins" of the
Great Tribulation Kingdom.... was the purpose of the Atonement.

Jesus came to save "His People" from their sins...
and that included EACH of "His Sheep", EACH of the "elect"
throughout the history of man. Not a single "elect" is lost.

... it should be rather obvious that the verse shows that salvation was made obvious to everyone. If that isn't an offer, then you just don't understand what an offer even is.

When Jesus clearly explains that some men were NEVER MEANT
to be saved... you can not describe that as a "free offer" to every
man ever born. At least you cannot HONESTLY say that.

First Jesus explained that SOME MEN were NEVER MEANT to
"perceive" or "understand" LEST AT ANY TIME they could
"be converted" and their "sins forgiven". If Jesus was NOT
lying... every man who was NEVER MEANT to "be converted"
or have their "sins forgiven"... did not have this "free offer"
that so many insist on teaching.

Obviously, when SOME MEN were NEVER MEANT to be converted
or have their sins forgiven... it is ridiculous to pretend the Gospel
is a "free offer" to all men. But few can accept this reality because
it immediately DESTROYS their "gospel"... and they cannot submit
to what the Bible says.

But this, besides being the Gospel of the Bible, is also confirmed
as HISTORICAL FACT. There were probably a MILLION people in
the Pre-Flood Kingdom who were NEVER MEANT to be saved, at
the end of that Kingdom only eight (8) souls were meant to be
saved. In the Jewish Kingdom MANY Jews were NEVER MEANT
to be saved.... and almost 100% of Gentiles were NEVER MEANT
to be saved.... during the Christian Kingdom MOST of the church
consisted of unsaved "tares" sown by Satan and, as the "children
of Satan" they were destined to the same Fire prepared for Satan.
It is nothing less than FOOLISHNESS to pretend they were MEANT
to be saved... moreover, there were BILLIONS of people OUTSIDE
the church, clearly all of them were NEVER MEANT to be saved.
(Assuming you believe Jesus was NOT LYING when He promised
that, of ALL MEN the Father gives Him, He will lose NONE of them)

The Gospel of the Bible clearly teaches that (1) God "elects"
who He will saved and (2) ALL MEN "elected" shall be saved,
Christ will lose NONE of them and (3) some men... in fact, the
vast majority of mankind was NEVER MEANT to be saved since
they were NOT "elected" and NOT able to be "converted" or to
have their "sins forgiven"

For someone to preach the Gospel is a "free offer" to all men
KNOWING that Jesus PROMISED some men were NEVER MEANT
to be converted or have their sins forgiven... is willful contradiction
of the Words of Christ (and denial of actual the historical reality).

The TRUE GOSPEL of the Bible (the narrow way to eternal life)
is the monergistic gospel that God "chose" or "elected" EVERY
person MEANT TO BE SAVED from Adam to the last "wise virgin"
and ALL OF THEM would be saved, since Jesus will lose NONE
of those the Father gave them.

The ONLY way someone can preach the Gospel is a "free offer"
to all men is to say Jesus was LYING when HE PROMISED that
some men were NEVER MEANT to "be converted" or to have
their "sins forgiven". Yet that is the (false) gospel preached
by 98% of the churches today... which it why it is clearly the
BROAD WAY that leads Christians into destruction by teaching
a synergistic gospel where God is NOT SOVEREIGN and man
gets to decide who is "His Sheep"... by doing some good "work".
(yes, making a DECISION to "believe" is a mental WORK...
many men earn a living "working" by only making decisions)

Bottom Line:
You cannot take someone seriously when they teach the Gospel
is a "free offer" when (a) God alone "chose" or "elected" all those
who would be "His Sheep" and (b) Christ PROMISED some men
were NEVER MEANT to "be converted" or have their "sins forgiven". And (c) almost 100% of the Gentiles OUTSIDE of the
Jewish Kingdom were NEVER MEANT to be saved and all those
OUTSIDE the Christian church were NEVER MEANT to be saved.

To preach a "gospel" about a "free offer" KNOWING THESE FACTS
is to be intentionally dishonest and/or to willfully contradict the
(true) Gospel of the Bible.

Jim

5thKingdom · Nov 1, 2020

Kermos said:
Every time a self-willed person (2 Peter 2:9-10) proclaims their own work of a "choice" toward Jesus, such a person boasts; moreover, such a person claims ownership over belief in Jesus which Jesus reserves unto God, so a burglary in progress occurs yet the burglar, the criminal, the "such a person" can only fail to destruction apart from God's grace.

More about belief, since you quote John chapter 6, I'd like to add when Jesus said "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

There is no doubt that John 6:29 defines the decision to "believe"
as a WORK. The ONLY question is (a) is it the "work" of God or
(b) is it the "work" of man.

Jim

5thKingdom · Nov 1, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
Please read Rom 10:10. "Man believes from the hearrt". It doesn't say "man believes when God causes him to believe from the heart".

Eze_36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Tell me... WHICH HEART believes?
(1) the heart of stone of spiritually DEAD people in Satan's Kingdom
(2) the heart of flesh God gives upon regeneration

Yes... the Bible DOES actually say "man believes" AFTER
God takes away is naturally DEAD heart and gives him
a NEW heart.

This is Christian Theology 101...
why is it "news" to you?

Jim

FreeGrace2 · Nov 1, 2020

5thKingdom said:
There is no doubt that John 6:29 defines the decision to "believe"
as a WORK. The ONLY question is (a) is it the "work" of God or
(b) is it the "work" of man.

Jim

There is no doubt that Jesus' answer was "tongue-in-cheek", given that the works oriented Jews thought there was work they had to do to enter heaven.

A bit of sarcasm. What Jesus was saying was that God requires people to believe in His Son in order to go to heaven.

Both Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9 completely destroy the nonsense that believing is a work.

Grace (believing) and works are antithetical.

Rom 11:6 - And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Eph 2:8 says we are saved by GRACE. Rom 11:6 says salvation cannot be based on works.

Any questions?

FreeGrace2 · Nov 1, 2020

I said:
"Please read Rom 10:10. "Man believes from the hearrt". It doesn't say "man believes when God causes him to believe from the heart".

5thKingdom said:
Eze_36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Right. When an unbeliever believes in his heart, THEN God gives him a new heart. It's called regeneration.

Tell me... WHICH HEART believes?

Man's unregenerated heart.

(1) the heart of stone of spiritually DEAD people in Satan's Kingdom
(2) the heart of flesh God gives upon regeneration

None of your overly dramatic wordings makes a bit of difference. The Bible is clear.

Eph 2:5 - made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

The blue words define the red words. The red words refer to regeneration. The blue words speak of salvation.

In this verse, regeneration and salvation are equated. iow, they go together. You cannot have one without the other.

There is no such thing as being regenerated as an unbeliever. Or being a believer without being regenerated.

Eph 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

The red words prove that faith precedes salvation. You can't be saved THROUGH faith unless there IS faith.

So, from v.5 we understand that both salvation AND regeneration are THROUGH faith.

Yes... the Bible DOES actually say "man believes" AFTER
God takes away is naturally DEAD heart and gives him
a NEW heart.

Where in the Bible? You've been pretty short on evidence for all your notions.

Eze 36:26 doesn't say what you claim.

This is Christian Theology 101...
why is it "news" to you?

I've just shown you what Biblcal theology 101 SAYS. Why don't you believe it?

You have no excuse for your unbiblical ideas. You've been shown over and over.

Kermos · Nov 22, 2020

The election/choice of God includes salvation for so says Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28) which the Mighty Word of God states absolutely "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), and the His Apostle John recorded "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20), and what's recorded in John 15:16-19 is "through their word" - that is the Apostle John's word recording the Word of God.

Your words, FreeGrace2, clearly reject the Word of God recorded in John 15:16-19 about election/choice.

Your imposition upon the Word of God in limiting the audience for Jesus' words during the supper to only the 11 Apostles is false, as proven in the first paragraph of this post as well as the fact that Luke recorded that the Apostle Peter states that Matthias and Joseph were with the Apostles "all the time" from Jesus' baptism to His asension (Acts 1:15-24).

Acts 1:2 does not state that the 11 were the only disciples to whom Jesus had given orders, for it is written that "Now after this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them in pairs ahead of Him to every city and place where He Himself was going to come. And He was saying to them, 'The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest. Go; behold, I send you out as lambs in the midst of wolves" (Luke 10:1-3).

That states "seventy others" that Jesus sent out.

It was after that that Lord Jesus gave the blessed command "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." (Matthew 28:18-20) to all believers.

Now, FreeGrace2, it appears that you disclaim the Word of God that you called the "Great Commision" for all believers!

Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus when He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

Jesus spent the evening of that supper recorded in John chapters 13 to 17 discussing and teaching and proclaiming with the disciples, so the evening is a cohesive context that includes all believers in all time.

FreeGrace2 said:
Kermos said: â
"When you wrote "Election is to service, not salvation", I declare that you impose your limits against the Word of God."

My response to your comment:
"Oh, you just sound so authorative. Yet, you have no authority to such silliness. I'm NOT limiting God in any way. Rather, I'm revealing God's Word. In EVERY example, the election is to service.

And, despite your claims to the contrary, you have NOT shown ANY verse that says people are chosen for salvation unconditionally."

I have to assume you are responding to my post back in June 21. Kinda late to the party.

I pointed out that you have given NO verses that clearly say that salvation is by election.

And yet you claim that I "ignore answers". Are you kidding?? You haven't provided any answers to my questions.

And you don't need to define words. I think everyone knows that elect and choose are synonymous.

How about reading your context FIRST, before embarrassing yourself. Jesus wasn't speaking to all of humanity, but to 11 men. And, what did He choose them for? To spread the gospel to the world. See Matt 28:19,20. The Great Commission was given to the 11 apostles as marching orders to spread the gospel to the world.

How do you explain John 6:70,71 in which Jesus told the 12 disciples that He had chosen them, and then noted that one of them was a devil!

What does this sentence mean?

Maybe you missed it, but John 17:20 doesn't occur in the context of John 15.

I never said they were. Acts 1:15 indicates that there were approximately 120 disciples when Jesus went to heaven on a cloud. However, the Great Commission was given specifically to the 11, who were also called apostles. Acts 1:2

Prove it.

Prove it. Use Scripture. In the upper room, there is NO mention of anyone other than the 12.

It would be quite absurd to claim that the verse meant that there were more thant he 12 12 that were with Jesus all the time. Yes, there were more that accompanied Jesus than just the 12, but Scripture is quite clear that a number of times there were JUST the 12 present.

The Word of God is clear, but you reject.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

FreeGrace2 · Nov 22, 2020

Kermos said:
The election/choice of God includes salvation for so says Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28) which the Mighty Word of God states absolutely "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), and the His Apostle John recorded "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20), and what's recorded in John 15:16-19 is "through their word" - that is the Apostle John's word recording the Word of God.

None of these verses say that election/choice is for salvation. That is merely an assumption or presumption. Jesus also told Judas that He had chosen him in John 6:70,71, and Judas never believed.

Your words, FreeGrace2, clearly reject the Word of God recorded in John 15:16-19 about election/choice.

Rather, you have terribly misunderstood the Word of God.

Election is FOR service, not salvation. I can prove it from the Bible. Here are all the examples of those who are identified as being elected:

Examples of Election

1. Election of Christ: Isa 42:1 "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations.

Matt 12:18 "Behold, My Servant whom I have chosen; My Beloved in whom My soul is well-pleased; I will put My Spirit upon Him, And He shall proclaim justice to the Gentiles.

Luke 9:35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!"

Luke 23:35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, "He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One.

1 Peter 2:6 For this is contained in Scripture: "Behold I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone, And he who believes in Him shall not be disappointed."

2. Election of Israel: Amos 3:2 "You only have I chosen among all the families of the earth; Therefore, I will punish you for all your iniquities."

Deut 7:6 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

3. Election of Angels: 1 Tim 5:21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.

4. Election of the Church or body of Christ: Eph 1:4a just as He chose us (believers) in Him…

5. Other elections:

Paul: Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;

Apostles: John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask of the Father in My name, He may give to you.

Now, your challenge is to prove that Jesus Christ was chosen or elected for salvation, that the entire nation of Israel was chosen for salvation, and that angels were chosen for salvation.

As to NT believers, Eph 1:4 says nothing about salvation, but rather the purpose of election is "that you should be holy and blameless". This is about service, not salvation. In fact, the "us" in v.4 is clearly defined in v.19, "us who believe".

So, Eph 1:4 is about believers having been chosen/elected for service.

Your imposition upon the Word of God in limiting the audience for Jesus' words during the supper to only the 11 Apostles is false, as proven in the first paragraph of this post as well as the fact that Luke recorded that the Apostle Peter states that Matthias and Joseph were with the Apostles "all the time" from Jesus' baptism to His asension (Acts 1:15-24).

There is nothing in your opening paragraph that proves your thesis. My examples prove that your view is unbiblical.

Acts 1:2 does not state that the 11 were the only disciples to whom Jesus had given orders, for it is written that "Now after this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them in pairs ahead of Him to every city and place where He Himself was going to come. And He was saying to them, 'The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest. Go; behold, I send you out as lambs in the midst of wolves" (Luke 10:1-3).

Well, you seem to know how to CONFLATE verses, for sure.

Here's the evidence that you are unaware of:
Matt 28-
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go.
17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Acts 1-
1 In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach
2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen.

v.15 tells us that the entire group of believers was about 120 when Jesus ascended to heaven. And He didn't address any of them. Just 11 men.

Jesus chose apostles. That does NOT include the "70".

That states "seventy others" that Jesus sent out.

Prove that they were with Jesus when He gave the 11 apostles the Great Commission, and the 70 were apostleized.

Now, FreeGrace2, it appears that you disclaim the Word of God that you called the "Great Commision" for all believers!

I just proved it. There is NO mention of the GC in the NT. If you think there is, then provide your evidence.

Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus when He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

Yet, you don't understand what election is FOR.

Jesus spent the evening of that supper recorded in John chapters 13 to 17 discussing and teaching and proclaiming with the disciples, so the evening is a cohesive context that includes all believers in all time.

Nope. Jesus was preparing His apostles to "make disciples" and then to "teach them all I have commanded you".

Jesus was preparing His apostles for evangelizing the known world.

The Word of God is clear, but you reject.

True, and false.

The Word of God is clear, indeed. What I reject isn't the Word of God, but your ideas.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

Just go through the examples of election above and tell me that Jesus Christ was chosen for salvation, that the entire nation of Israel was chosen for salvation, and that angels were chosen for salvation.

btw, the Bible says NOTHING about angels being saved at all. There is no evidence at all about angels even being offered salvation.

But if you have some evidence, please provide.

Kermos · Nov 22, 2020

This post stands with my prior post.

FreeGrace2 said:
snip... In EVERY example, the election is to service ...snip

The Word of God says "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16), but you attempt to alter the words to "you did not choose service for Me" or some such. Jesus used no qualifier. Jesus provided no exemption. Lord Jesus say "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16), and in the same passage He says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) thus incorporating salvation as exclusively God's choice.

Free-willians make the criminal jump to "I can choose Jesus", but such a free-willian claim rejects the Word of God saying "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16).

Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), says Who He is. Free-willians claim that Jesus is less than Jesus says He is in their self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) claim to the non-existant work of man, specifically their claim of choosing King Jesus, His Majesty.

snip... I have to assume you are responding to my post back in June 21. Kinda late to the party ...snip

The Truth (John 14:6) is not bound by time!

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

FreeGrace2 · Nov 22, 2020

Kermos said:
The Word of God says "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16), but you attempt to alter the words to "you did not choose service for Me" or some such.

Get real. Of course no human being chooses God for service. But God does choose humans for service.

Why don't you address the examples I've given that PROVE that election is to service.

In EVERY case or example, the choosing was for service. In NONE of the examples was the choosing for salvation.

And you have not provided ANY verses that say clearly that anyone was chosen for salvation. In ALL the verses you have quoted, nothing is said about the purpose for the election.

You are just PRESUMING that the purpose is for salvation. You have no evidence at all.

Jesus used no qualifier. Jesus provided no exemption. Lord Jesus say "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16), and in the same passage He says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) thus incorporating salvation as exclusively God's choice.

Just presumption. Pure and simple.

Observations About Free-willian Bible Interpretation And Free-willian Writings

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