Universalists: How do you explain the "problem passages"?

Justified_By_Christ_Alone · Oct 31, 2020

I am open about universalism, I just don't know how you guys get past some verses. If you have an explanation for them I will hear you out. For example, all of the verses that say the wicked will perish, everlasting destruction, the second death, etc.? How do you explain those verses about perishing and the wicked getting destroyed?

Albion · Oct 31, 2020

Justified_By_Christ_Alone said:
I am open about universalism, I just don't know how you guys get past some some verses. If you have an explanation for them I will hear you out. For example, all of the verses that say the wicked will perish, everlasting destruction, the second death, etc.? How do you explain those verses about perishing and the wicked getting destroyed?

I don't think we can.

There are a handful of verses that might be interpreted as supporting Universalism--a handful--but they are far outnumbered by the Bible verses that are quite emphatic in saying the opposite (as you observed yourself).

Justified_By_Christ_Alone · Oct 31, 2020

Albion said:
I don't think we can.

There are a handful of verses that might be interpreted as supporting Universalism--a handful--but they are far outnumbered by the Bible verses that are quite emphatic in saying the opposite (as you observed yourself).

Yes but I want to hear universalists explain them.

Basil the Great · Oct 31, 2020

Nicene Christian Universalists have a real problem explaining them. However, Unitarian Universalists have no problem in the sense that they do not view Jesus as God and hence his verses that describe eternal punishment for many do not have to be accepted as infallible truth for them.

Justified_By_Christ_Alone · Oct 31, 2020

Basil the Great said:
Nicene Christian Universalists have a real problem explaining them. However, Unitarian Universalists have no problem in the sense that they do not view Jesus as God and hence his verses that describe eternal punishment for many do not have to be accepted as infallible truth for them.

I would like to hear the true bible-believing Christians try to explain them and why they believe the way they do. I like hearing other perspectives and interpretations.

ChristServant · Oct 31, 2020

Justified_By_Christ_Alone said:
I am open about universalism, I just don't know how you guys get past some some verses. If you have an explanation for them I will hear you out. For example, all of the verses that say the wicked will perish, everlasting destruction, the second death, etc.? How do you explain those verses about perishing and the wicked getting destroyed?

I find your post really interesting and honest but and here's the big but, do you want to follow GOD as he intends for you to follow HIM or with how you intend, want to follow HIM. This is something seen throughout Christendom at the present time, people making GOD in their image and how they wish HIM to be. This could be called Idolatry and with justification in my opinion. Making a god to suit one's self.

I hope you seek GOD and let yourself be lead by the Holy Spirit into all truth.

Peace be with you

Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him

We no longer look to be served. We look to serve and give our lives for others. No longer fight for privilege, influence and status. We esteem others better than ourselves and put their interests above our own.

Justified_By_Christ_Alone · Oct 31, 2020

ChristServant said:
I find your post really interesting and honest but and here's the big but, do you want to follow GOD as he intends for you to follow HIM or with how you intend, want to follow HIM. This is something seen throughout Christendom at the present time, people making GOD in their image and how they wish HIM to be. This could be called Idolatry and with justification in my opinion. Making a GOD to suit ones self.

I hope you seek GOD and let yourself be lead by the Holy Spirit into all truth.

Peace be with you

Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him

We no longer look to be served. We look to serve and give our lives for others. No longer fight for privilege, influence and status. We esteem others better than ourselves and put their interests above our own.

Uh what? What does this have to do with the post on universalism? I am asking universalists for their perspectives on these verses in the bible in the controversial section. You are posting something that is not relevant to the thread so PM me instead of putting irrelevant comments on a thread like this.

Do you follow him? Do you believe in the true gospel and believe what he says? That the work of Jesus Christ is sufficient to give you eternal life? Eternal security? If not then this conversation is over because I cannot fellowship with you as the bible clearly says not to fellowship with those in darkness (those who believe in a false gospel). Don't even bother PMing me if you reject the gospel and are simply religious. God Bless.

Gifts From Above · Oct 31, 2020

Justified_By_Christ_Alone said:
I would like to hear the true bible-believing Christians try to explain them and why they believe the way they do. I like hearing other perspectives and interpretations.

I take Christ at his word. When he states that punishment is eternal I believe him.

Matthew 25:46

Justified_By_Christ_Alone · Oct 31, 2020

Gifts From Above said:
I take Christ at his word. When he states that punishment is eternal I believe him.

Matthew 25:46

Thank you, but I am asking universalists specifically to defend their position with the bible and why they believe the way they do. I am not asking for eternal torment people, or annihilationists, to defend their position, that is not the purpose for this thread. The purpose for this thread is for universalists to answer me on why they believe the way they do and how they get around certain verses, but thank you anyways.

Gifts From Above · Oct 31, 2020

Justified_By_Christ_Alone said:
Thank you, but I am asking universalists specifically to defend their position with the bible and why they believe the way they do. I am not asking for eternal punishment people to defend their position, that is not the purpose for this thread. The purpose for this thread is for universalists to answer me on why they believe the way they do and how they get around certain verses, not you, but thank you anyways.

You stated that you wanted to hear from “true Bible believing Christians” that is why I responded.

Justified_By_Christ_Alone · Oct 31, 2020

Gifts From Above said:
You stated that you wanted to hear from “true Bible believing Christians” that is why I responded.

Read it again...

"I would like to hear the true bible-believing Christians try to explain them and why they believe the way they do. I like hearing other perspectives and interpretations"

The "they" in the post, is referring to universalists. Because I was replying to the quote (the other guy who posted) that was in regards to two types of universalists, the bible-rejecting ones and the bible-believing ones (and supposedly the bible-believing ones have no answer, but I am giving them a chance in this thread to defend their position with scripture and explain those verses that seem to reject their beliefs).

I am looking for true bible-believing Christians who are universalists to try to defend their position in why they believe the way they do, my post is pretty clear when you read it plainly in what I am requesting.

hedrick · Oct 31, 2020

I’m still not sure I’m prepared to commit to universalism. I think there may be a few people who simply can’t be reconciled to God.

But the problem passages you refer to mostly go away when you realize the OT background, and how 1st Cent Jews used words. There are things said to be eternal in the OT that don’t exist any longer.

Jesus talked about judgement, but the punishment he talked about doesn’t necessarily have to last forever.

Indeed without 1 Cor 15, I’d say the strongest case is for annihilation. The language used in the NT for judgement is mostly taken from OT passages about death of God’s enemies.

Gifts From Above · Oct 31, 2020

Justified_By_Christ_Alone said:
Read it again...

"I would like to hear the true bible-believing Christians try to explain them and why they believe the way they do. I like hearing other perspectives and interpretations"

The "they" in the post, is referring to universalists. Because I was replying to the quote (the other guy who posted) that was in regards to two types of universalists, the bible-rejecting ones and the bible-believing ones (and supposedly the bible-believing ones have no answer, but I am giving them a chance in this thread to defend their position with scripture and explain those verses that seem to reject their beliefs).

I am looking for true bible-believing Christians who are universalists to try to defend their position in why they believe the way they do, my post is pretty clear when you read it plainly in what I am requesting.

There is no such thing as a Bible believing universalist.

Justified_By_Christ_Alone · Oct 31, 2020

hedrick said:
I’m still not sure I’m prepared to commit to universalism. I think there may be a few people who simply can’t be reconciled to God.

But the problem passages you refer to mostly go away when you realize the OT background, and how 1st Cent Jews used words. There are things said to be eternal in the OT that don’t exist any longer.

Jesus talked about judgement, but the punishment he talked about doesn’t necessarily have to last forever.

Indeed without 1 Cor 15, I’d say the strongest case is for annihilation. The language used in the NT for judgement is mostly taken from OT passages about death of God’s enemies.

I've heard some universalists say that the "eternal contempt" they will face is being banished from the kingdom and not having a glorified body (but still living on New Earth eternally). That does make sense, but then there is an issue with the passages where it says the wicked will perish and everlasting destruction. Maybe that's just for a few people? Anyways, it would be nice to hear their perspective on it.

Justified_By_Christ_Alone · Oct 31, 2020

Gifts From Above said:
There is no such thing as a Bible believing universalist.

LOL what a cop out. Someone doesn't agree with you on YOUR perspective on scripture and YOUR beliefs and that makes them not a bible believer? Even if they agree with the foundation of Jesus being God and the foundational truths? Please get off this thread if you can't be respectful. I do not agree with universalism, too many verses contradicting it and perhaps I am not understanding them correctly myself. But I am willing to hear fellow believers out on their perspectives. Everyone has that right. But you label them as lost and non-bible believers and heretics because you disagree with them on it? You are actually WORSE than universalists in making a statement like that. That's exactly how religious cults start, and the general popular "orthodox" Christianity is a religious cult because of people like you who don't give them a chance to defend their position WITH SCRIPTURE please get off this thread you are not being respectful.

hedrick · Oct 31, 2020

Justified_By_Christ_Alone said:
I've heard some universalists say that the "eternal contempt" they will face is being banished from the kingdom and not having a glorified body (but still living on New Earth eternally). That does make sense, but then there is an issue with the passages where it says the wicked will perish and everlasting destruction. Maybe that's just for a few people? Anyways, it would be nice to hear their perspective on it.

It's really hard to know how literally to take these passages. The standard example of a rejected group is Sodom and Gomorrah. "As when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighbors, says the LORD, so no one shall live there, nor shall anyone settle in her." (Jer 50:40) Yet Ezek 16:53 says "I will restore their fortunes, the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and the fortunes of Samaria and her daughters, and I will restore your own fortunes along with theirs,"

hedrick · Oct 31, 2020

The problem with this topic is that we have to take something non-literally. It's a matter of judgement what. In 1 Cor 15:22 ff Paul says that just as all died in Adam all will be made alive. The comparison makes it clear that he means everyone, not just all nations. The passage ends with all being united with Christ and through him, God. There are, of course, standard way of dismissing the obvious reading. But I'd rather dismiss the literal reading of passages that use language that we know from the OT was often not used literally.

Gifts From Above · Oct 31, 2020

Justified_By_Christ_Alone said:
LOL what a cop out. Someone doesn't agree with you on YOUR perspective on scripture and YOUR beliefs and that makes them not a bible believer? Even if they agree with the foundation of Jesus being God and the foundational truths? Please get off this thread if you can't be respectful. I do not agree with universalism, too many verses contradicting it and perhaps I am not understanding them correctly myself. But I am willing to hear fellow believers out on their perspectives. Everyone has that right. But you label them as lost and non-bible believers and heretics because you disagree with them on it? You are actually WORSE than universalists in making a statement like that. That's exactly how religious cults start, and the general popular "orthodox" Christianity is a religious cult because of people like you who don't give them a chance to defend their position WITH SCRIPTURE please get off this thread you are not being respectful.

I view belief in eternal punishment as a general tenant of the orthodox faith so you are correct when you say that I view universalists as heretics.

Justified_By_Christ_Alone · Oct 31, 2020

Gifts From Above said:
I view belief in eternal punishment as a general tenant of the orthodox faith so you are correct when you say that I view universalists as heretics.

Ok, but who asked?

Anyone who doesn't agree with your view isn't a heretic or isn't a bible believer... Unless it goes against the foundation on WHO CHRIST IS. You are just angry there are people who disagree with you and disagree with what you consider orthodox. Doesn't mean they don't deserve to be heard and they don't deserve to post their perspective. That's what religious cultism is. Again, I asked for bible-believing universalists to defend their position. Not for people to be disrespectful on the controversial section and rail the thread.

Again, no one asked you...

Gifts From Above · Oct 31, 2020

hedrick said:
The problem with this topic is that we have to take something non-literally. It's a matter of judgement what. In 1 Cor 15:22 ff Paul says that just as all died in Adam all will be made alive. The comparison makes it clear that he means everyone, not just all nations. The passage ends with all being united with Christ and through him, God. There are, of course, standard way of dismissing the obvious reading. But I'd rather dismiss the literal reading of passages that use language that we know from the OT was often not used literally.

All will be made alive but some will arise to the resurrection of condemnation.

John 5:28-29

Universalists: How do you explain the "problem passages"?

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