God predestinated the elect to be saved. Hence the elect must be the one whom God predestinated. What's the difference comparing this 2 words?
What is the different between predestination and election?
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The strongs words beside elect mean to be chosen.
The strongs word that becomes Predestinated has two root words "determined" and "before"
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Albion
Facilitator
There may be a number of ways in which they two might differ. How about this?
If you accept the concept of predestination as true (which many Christians do not), the Elect have been chosen to receive Faith and be saved, but "predestination," according to some Christians, might also include God predetermining some individuals to be lost.
If you accept the concept of predestination as true (which many Christians do not), the Elect have been chosen to receive Faith and be saved, but "predestination," according to some Christians, might also include God predetermining some individuals to be lost.
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Rachel20
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Is predestination meant to be used positionally in time or location? For example, in Ephesians 1:4 the word "before" is used twice. The first usage suggests we're chosen in time before the creation. But the second usage, if applied the same way, suggests we came before Christ in time!!! On the other hand, if both usages really mean "in front of", then the predestination of v5 would simply mean we become predestined at the moment we're saved.
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. Ephesians 1:4-6
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. Ephesians 1:4-6
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The deception of Calvinism “… Therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life… ” Choose Life, contrary to Calvin’s assertion.
Philosophers have attempted to reconcile casual determinism with “Free Will,” for centuries. But the first major philosopher to argue convincingly for some indeterminism may have been Aristotle in the first century. How in the 16th century, John Calvin determined he had been gifted a new revelation and we are all Zombies programmed, with no ability to chose, nor reject, the call of God in our severely restricted, wretched, puppet lives. I can not answer. Our existence, he surmised, though we, having been made in the image of God, are doomed to remain in a continuous cycle, careening off the walls, within the confines of our windup toy box. Did God who having said, “Whatever they can imagine they will accomplish if allowed to work together,” create us with intelligence, then decide we would never be allowed to make our own decisions without someone or something yanking our chains? NO.
Science does not like random events. It seeks to quantify and understand the order of things. But Calvin was no scientist, religion is metaphysical.
Hawking states, “The classical view, put forward by Laplace, was that the future motion of particles was completely determined, if one knew their positions and speeds at one time. This view had to be modified, when Heisenberg put forward his Uncertainty Principle, which said that one could not know both the position, and the speed, accurately. However, it was still possible to predict one combination of position and speed. But even this limited predictability disappeared, when the effects of black holes were taken into account. The loss of particles and information down black holes meant that the particles that came out were random. One could calculate probabilities, but one could not make any definite predictions. Thus, the future of the universe is not completely determined by the laws of science, and its present state, as Laplace thought. God still has a few tricks up his sleeve.” Hawking
Christ came to earth at the time appointed before the earth was formed. “The lamb that was slain before the foundation of the earth.” And also, 1 Peter, 1:20 “He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.” Christ will return at an appointed time.
Let’s address Romans, 9:11: “… for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calls.” This scripture has not only been taken out of context, it has been twisted to say something which it clearly does not. What is this chapter about? We’ll start at the top. Verse 1. “I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, that I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,” Paul is referring to Israel. Not his spiritual brothers, but rather his genetic tree from which Christ also came. (“My kinsmen according to the flesh.”) verse 4 … who are Israelites; to whom pertains the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Paul lists his affinity for the nation of Israel and his desire that he himself were accursed if it would then allow the Jewish nation to be redeemed. Christ did that. Galatians 3:13 “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree.” No other can accomplish this. Paul is simply stating the depth of his love for his nation as a parent does for a child, or as some will desire for dead or dying loved ones.
Verse 6 “Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Above, again Paul clarifies further of whom he is speaking. Genesis 12:1 Now the Lord said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation… ” Genesis, 18:9 They said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?” And he said, “She is in the tent.” The Lord said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife shall have a son.” Now, Sarah doubted and tried to help God out by offering her maidservant as a surrogate thus two nations sprang from Abraham. One of the promise, and one of the flesh.
Genesis, 21:12 But God said to Abraham, “Be not displeased because of the boy and because of your slave woman. Whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you, for through Isaac shall your offspring be named. And I will make a nation of the son of the slave woman also, because he is your offspring.”
It is very clear to whom Paul referring to in this chapter. The children of promise. Not those who were to be saved. This is why Paul is saddened by the fact that, while offspring which would become the Jewish nation was promised, salvation was not given to all descendants because they did not believe. Hebrews, 3:19. “So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.” Salvation is and always was by faith, by believing in Gods work and grace. Abraham believed and it was credited to him as righteousness. Salvation is individual, not national.
So, who are the chosen in Romans, 9:11? “… for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calls.” Who are the elect referred to here? Those Sarah elected to produce through a surrogate because of doubt? No. In this section of scripture it refers to the natural offspring of Abraham through Isaac. There are other scriptures that use the word elect. So, let’s address exactly what is being said when Christ and others refer to the “elect.”
Elect means Chosen. Matthew, 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.” What is being said when we read the words, elect, chosen? They are the same word. Elect, Chosen = ἐκλεκτός, ἐκλεκτή, ἐκλεκτόν (ἐκλέγω), picked out, chosen. So God calls many. Those who believe and put their faith in Him are picked out, chosen, elected and become the “Bride of Christ.” Who makes it to the wedding feast? How does one prepare? We will not find the “Kingdom of Heaven” in spaceships, nor by way of inter dimensional travels. We can not work our way there by perfect behavior and adherence to a set of rules. It is by faith. By faith in the work of God through the sacrifice of His Son.
Romans, 8:29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. And yet… “Many are called and few are chosen”. Matthew, 22:14 Paul’s statement above is either not true, or someone misinterpreted it. If He justified those individuals He called, how can many be called and few chosen?
Now let’s examine Ephesians chapter 1.
Verse 3 – 5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will… First. He uses the words, us, we, so we know he is speaking of a group. Which group? Clearly to believers about believers. The church at Ephesus. The faithful, believers, the chosen. And, to this group of believers, these faithful, what is the message? Well, that He has blessed us with every spiritual blessing that exists in heaven. “Flesh and blood can not inherit the Kingdom of God.” So, of necessity we receive a new Flesh and bone body. ( Not to make an issue of this because I have not done enough research on this. Was there blood in His body, because it was poured out for sin upon the cross. (Luke 24:39, “Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.” And here, Leviticus 17:11 “For the life of the creature is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls for it is the blood that makes an atonement for the soul.” Leviticus 17:11) 1 Corinthians 15:42. “So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.” Next he states that He/God chose believers as a group before the earth was formed. This also makes sense, since as we saw above, Christ was slain before the foundations of the earth and revealed at the chosen time. He says we are to be made holy and blameless through the sacrifice of Christ for His purpose.
God had a plan. Before Satan tempted Eve and the resulting fall, God foresaw this happening and provided the sacrifice.
Verse 6 – 9. “To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:”
He made us accepted in the beloved/Christ. We are redeemed by by the sacrifice of Christ and are forgiven, for God, is so rich in grace. He has bestowed on us bountiful grace in his wisdom and prudence. He has told us, He has revealed to us what Abraham and old testament believers did not see. The Christ, His new covenant in keeping with His purpose before creation, for His own pleasure. God was not fooled by Satan. Satan was thwarted and defeated by Christs sacrifice before events began to manifest in the physical universe.
Verses 10 – 12. That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his own will: that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. Again, at a preordained time, His plan to gather everything in Christ, both in heaven and on earth, in whom we also, have obtained an eternal inheritance, we according to Gods plan, by His effort to save us is to His praise and glory. The first fruits of mankind that put their faith in Christ.
Verse 13 -14. … In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. After we trust and believe the “Good News,” we are sealed with the promise. What promise? Romans, 8:23 “… And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, to wit, the redemption of our bodies.” The promise of a new eternal, spiritual body when our adoption is finalized. All that is promised to us in heaven. What that consists of,? I don’t know. We are told in, 1 Corinthians, 2:9. Rather, as it is written: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no heart has imagined, what God has prepared for those who love Him.”
Verses 19 – 23 “… and what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: and hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him that fills all in all.
What is the greatness of Gods power? How does it benefit us? He accomplished his plan through Christ. When Adam sinned and death entered it was not the defeat of God, but rather the defeat of mankind in a natural body.it initiated a first step in Gods plan for redemption. It was foreseen and inevitable. Not a problem. God knew and had prepared before it began. Christ would take human form, atone by shedding His blood in sacrifice, thereby defeating death physically in a body such as Adam inhabited. “Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death, He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil.” Hebrews, 2:14 And, Hebrews, 9:16. “For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.” God’s plan, His desire always was to be in a “Love” relationship with His souls. They could not chose Him if they were incapable of experiencing life. We were placed in a body, with a mind, that allowed for true love, not slavish, apish behavior. We are Brothers of the son. “Pointing to His disciples, He said, “Here are My mother and My brothers. For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.” Matthew 12:46. Yes this is true, yet we must remember, we are brothers to the King of Kings.
Philippians, 2:7 – 8. Christ changed bodies from spiritual to earthly when He came to allow for death. He was eternal before that.“…But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.” The elect, the chosen are the church, the Body of Christ as a whole.
Christ is King of Kings, the firstborn from the dead. He is the head. God is in control. Always has been, always will be. The misguided assertion that God is unjust, and man has no free will to respond neither positively nor negatively is not true. It is a deception many have fallen into and it can lead into complacency and sin when one believes they are saved and can never fall.
We are more than cells, more than pre-programmed particles. Calvinists may desire to believe in casual determinism, but we become more than the sum of our chemistry, when God breathes the spirit of life into us. Genesis, 2:7 “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.“ The physical components of our natural containers were complete yet remained uninhabited, unanimated until God imbued life.
We are not a body, it is a vehicle designed to support a spirit. It is a vehicle in which a new soul has experiences to live and choices to make. We are exhorted to exercise control over our body, our nature, our flesh, not to simply respond to, or follow natural impulses, proclivities and stimuli. We do not drift downstream.
Revelations, 3:20 “Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!”
1st Peter, 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy. Again, speaking to and about the Church. That generation of the Church. Remember the elect is the same word as chosen. eklektos is used 23 times. Elect 16 times. Chosen 7 times.
In Christ
Philosophers have attempted to reconcile casual determinism with “Free Will,” for centuries. But the first major philosopher to argue convincingly for some indeterminism may have been Aristotle in the first century. How in the 16th century, John Calvin determined he had been gifted a new revelation and we are all Zombies programmed, with no ability to chose, nor reject, the call of God in our severely restricted, wretched, puppet lives. I can not answer. Our existence, he surmised, though we, having been made in the image of God, are doomed to remain in a continuous cycle, careening off the walls, within the confines of our windup toy box. Did God who having said, “Whatever they can imagine they will accomplish if allowed to work together,” create us with intelligence, then decide we would never be allowed to make our own decisions without someone or something yanking our chains? NO.
Science does not like random events. It seeks to quantify and understand the order of things. But Calvin was no scientist, religion is metaphysical.
Hawking states, “The classical view, put forward by Laplace, was that the future motion of particles was completely determined, if one knew their positions and speeds at one time. This view had to be modified, when Heisenberg put forward his Uncertainty Principle, which said that one could not know both the position, and the speed, accurately. However, it was still possible to predict one combination of position and speed. But even this limited predictability disappeared, when the effects of black holes were taken into account. The loss of particles and information down black holes meant that the particles that came out were random. One could calculate probabilities, but one could not make any definite predictions. Thus, the future of the universe is not completely determined by the laws of science, and its present state, as Laplace thought. God still has a few tricks up his sleeve.” Hawking
Christ came to earth at the time appointed before the earth was formed. “The lamb that was slain before the foundation of the earth.” And also, 1 Peter, 1:20 “He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.” Christ will return at an appointed time.
Let’s address Romans, 9:11: “… for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calls.” This scripture has not only been taken out of context, it has been twisted to say something which it clearly does not. What is this chapter about? We’ll start at the top. Verse 1. “I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, that I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,” Paul is referring to Israel. Not his spiritual brothers, but rather his genetic tree from which Christ also came. (“My kinsmen according to the flesh.”) verse 4 … who are Israelites; to whom pertains the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Paul lists his affinity for the nation of Israel and his desire that he himself were accursed if it would then allow the Jewish nation to be redeemed. Christ did that. Galatians 3:13 “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree.” No other can accomplish this. Paul is simply stating the depth of his love for his nation as a parent does for a child, or as some will desire for dead or dying loved ones.
Verse 6 “Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Above, again Paul clarifies further of whom he is speaking. Genesis 12:1 Now the Lord said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation… ” Genesis, 18:9 They said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?” And he said, “She is in the tent.” The Lord said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife shall have a son.” Now, Sarah doubted and tried to help God out by offering her maidservant as a surrogate thus two nations sprang from Abraham. One of the promise, and one of the flesh.
Genesis, 21:12 But God said to Abraham, “Be not displeased because of the boy and because of your slave woman. Whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you, for through Isaac shall your offspring be named. And I will make a nation of the son of the slave woman also, because he is your offspring.”
It is very clear to whom Paul referring to in this chapter. The children of promise. Not those who were to be saved. This is why Paul is saddened by the fact that, while offspring which would become the Jewish nation was promised, salvation was not given to all descendants because they did not believe. Hebrews, 3:19. “So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.” Salvation is and always was by faith, by believing in Gods work and grace. Abraham believed and it was credited to him as righteousness. Salvation is individual, not national.
So, who are the chosen in Romans, 9:11? “… for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calls.” Who are the elect referred to here? Those Sarah elected to produce through a surrogate because of doubt? No. In this section of scripture it refers to the natural offspring of Abraham through Isaac. There are other scriptures that use the word elect. So, let’s address exactly what is being said when Christ and others refer to the “elect.”
Elect means Chosen. Matthew, 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.” What is being said when we read the words, elect, chosen? They are the same word. Elect, Chosen = ἐκλεκτός, ἐκλεκτή, ἐκλεκτόν (ἐκλέγω), picked out, chosen. So God calls many. Those who believe and put their faith in Him are picked out, chosen, elected and become the “Bride of Christ.” Who makes it to the wedding feast? How does one prepare? We will not find the “Kingdom of Heaven” in spaceships, nor by way of inter dimensional travels. We can not work our way there by perfect behavior and adherence to a set of rules. It is by faith. By faith in the work of God through the sacrifice of His Son.
Romans, 8:29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. And yet… “Many are called and few are chosen”. Matthew, 22:14 Paul’s statement above is either not true, or someone misinterpreted it. If He justified those individuals He called, how can many be called and few chosen?
Now let’s examine Ephesians chapter 1.
Verse 3 – 5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will… First. He uses the words, us, we, so we know he is speaking of a group. Which group? Clearly to believers about believers. The church at Ephesus. The faithful, believers, the chosen. And, to this group of believers, these faithful, what is the message? Well, that He has blessed us with every spiritual blessing that exists in heaven. “Flesh and blood can not inherit the Kingdom of God.” So, of necessity we receive a new Flesh and bone body. ( Not to make an issue of this because I have not done enough research on this. Was there blood in His body, because it was poured out for sin upon the cross. (Luke 24:39, “Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.” And here, Leviticus 17:11 “For the life of the creature is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls for it is the blood that makes an atonement for the soul.” Leviticus 17:11) 1 Corinthians 15:42. “So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.” Next he states that He/God chose believers as a group before the earth was formed. This also makes sense, since as we saw above, Christ was slain before the foundations of the earth and revealed at the chosen time. He says we are to be made holy and blameless through the sacrifice of Christ for His purpose.
God had a plan. Before Satan tempted Eve and the resulting fall, God foresaw this happening and provided the sacrifice.
Verse 6 – 9. “To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:”
He made us accepted in the beloved/Christ. We are redeemed by by the sacrifice of Christ and are forgiven, for God, is so rich in grace. He has bestowed on us bountiful grace in his wisdom and prudence. He has told us, He has revealed to us what Abraham and old testament believers did not see. The Christ, His new covenant in keeping with His purpose before creation, for His own pleasure. God was not fooled by Satan. Satan was thwarted and defeated by Christs sacrifice before events began to manifest in the physical universe.
Verses 10 – 12. That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his own will: that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. Again, at a preordained time, His plan to gather everything in Christ, both in heaven and on earth, in whom we also, have obtained an eternal inheritance, we according to Gods plan, by His effort to save us is to His praise and glory. The first fruits of mankind that put their faith in Christ.
Verse 13 -14. … In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. After we trust and believe the “Good News,” we are sealed with the promise. What promise? Romans, 8:23 “… And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, to wit, the redemption of our bodies.” The promise of a new eternal, spiritual body when our adoption is finalized. All that is promised to us in heaven. What that consists of,? I don’t know. We are told in, 1 Corinthians, 2:9. Rather, as it is written: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no heart has imagined, what God has prepared for those who love Him.”
Verses 19 – 23 “… and what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: and hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him that fills all in all.
What is the greatness of Gods power? How does it benefit us? He accomplished his plan through Christ. When Adam sinned and death entered it was not the defeat of God, but rather the defeat of mankind in a natural body.it initiated a first step in Gods plan for redemption. It was foreseen and inevitable. Not a problem. God knew and had prepared before it began. Christ would take human form, atone by shedding His blood in sacrifice, thereby defeating death physically in a body such as Adam inhabited. “Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death, He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil.” Hebrews, 2:14 And, Hebrews, 9:16. “For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.” God’s plan, His desire always was to be in a “Love” relationship with His souls. They could not chose Him if they were incapable of experiencing life. We were placed in a body, with a mind, that allowed for true love, not slavish, apish behavior. We are Brothers of the son. “Pointing to His disciples, He said, “Here are My mother and My brothers. For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.” Matthew 12:46. Yes this is true, yet we must remember, we are brothers to the King of Kings.
Philippians, 2:7 – 8. Christ changed bodies from spiritual to earthly when He came to allow for death. He was eternal before that.“…But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.” The elect, the chosen are the church, the Body of Christ as a whole.
Christ is King of Kings, the firstborn from the dead. He is the head. God is in control. Always has been, always will be. The misguided assertion that God is unjust, and man has no free will to respond neither positively nor negatively is not true. It is a deception many have fallen into and it can lead into complacency and sin when one believes they are saved and can never fall.
We are more than cells, more than pre-programmed particles. Calvinists may desire to believe in casual determinism, but we become more than the sum of our chemistry, when God breathes the spirit of life into us. Genesis, 2:7 “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.“ The physical components of our natural containers were complete yet remained uninhabited, unanimated until God imbued life.
We are not a body, it is a vehicle designed to support a spirit. It is a vehicle in which a new soul has experiences to live and choices to make. We are exhorted to exercise control over our body, our nature, our flesh, not to simply respond to, or follow natural impulses, proclivities and stimuli. We do not drift downstream.
Revelations, 3:20 “Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!”
1st Peter, 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy. Again, speaking to and about the Church. That generation of the Church. Remember the elect is the same word as chosen. eklektos is used 23 times. Elect 16 times. Chosen 7 times.
In Christ
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Rachel20
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If it's logical to say the church is elect in the New Testament, and election means "predestined" in time before the foundation of the world, then it follows the church is also elect in the Old Testament. But in the Old, only Israel is his elect:
For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. Isaiah 45:4
Calvinists read Ephesians 1:4 as saying we (the church), were chosen before the foundation of the world. But what it actually says is we were chosen in him before the foundation of the world. And when do you get in him? When you were dead in your trespasses and walked according to the prince of the power of the air? (Ephesians 2:1-2) No! You're placed in him the moment you're saved.
Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. (Ephesians 2:11-13)
(Note if you were predestined in time to be saved, it can't be said you were ever without hope. But that's what it says. So you only came to have hope the moment in time you were saved in him)
For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. Isaiah 45:4
Calvinists read Ephesians 1:4 as saying we (the church), were chosen before the foundation of the world. But what it actually says is we were chosen in him before the foundation of the world. And when do you get in him? When you were dead in your trespasses and walked according to the prince of the power of the air? (Ephesians 2:1-2) No! You're placed in him the moment you're saved.
Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. (Ephesians 2:11-13)
(Note if you were predestined in time to be saved, it can't be said you were ever without hope. But that's what it says. So you only came to have hope the moment in time you were saved in him)
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GOD'S PREDESTINATION IS BASED ON HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE OF HUMAN CHOICE
He has foreknowledge of who will be saved and who will not. He doesn't make the choices for people but knows what all the choices will be. Those who choose Him (of only He truly knows) are His elect and He knows who they are from beginning to end.
Difficult for our human minds to fully comprehend because we can not see the future like God does ... nor know peoples hearts.
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Is our life dictated solely by extrinsic motivation? The argument whether or not biological, physiological and religious constraints dictate our actions has been kicked back and forth on the metaphysical field between supporters and detractors for centuries with cheerleaders leaping up and down on both sidelines. What the unbelieving heart professes is of no consequence to me with the exception of when Christians attempt to inject it into scripture. This relates therefore to the ability of individuals to choose Gods grace, or reject Him.
Did Adam have the ability to choose? Did Adam have the capacity and information necessary to make an informed choice on obeying God’s command, “Do not eat”… Capacity, perhaps. Information, no. Prior to consumption of the fruit from the tree of knowledge, there was no knowledge of good and evil. What Adam and Eve had was an edict, a command with no explanation other than “you will die,” a concept he had no reference for. The fact is he was not then struck down, that did not occur until the age of 930.
Free will, Free agency. Does the free agent exercise free will? Does the agent have a specific faculty of will? Does causal determinism strictly exclude free will, or does it allow for partial free will?
This is relative as it pertains to, “how one is saved?” The freedom to choose to act or not is not determined by the ability nor the casual inability to act. The will is fulfilled by the determination to act. We are addressing the will, not the action. The inability to walk does not negate the determination to do so. We are discussing a relationship with God, not the decision to walk the dog or not, regardless of being incapacitated physically or prevented by external factors inhibiting physical action. We do not “wrestle against flesh and blood”. We are discussing FAITH. ‘If a man looks upon a woman with lust, he has committed adultery in his heart’.
Free agents have the faculties of intellect and will. The intellect/rational faculty cognates, as a result the intellect presents various options to the will as to a course of action. If Adam had the capacity to choose adherence to Gods edict, he certainly had the option to choose disobedience. Some may argue from a position that free will and free agency are separate and independent states, they are nondetachable. The agent responds and makes a decision based on the best information available, that decision within itself is an act of will. Some may assert a completely neutral heart as a prerequisite for making any decision of will. If indifference, lack of preference or bias are required attributes for the exercise of free will, human nature is replete with them.
God and Adam spent time walking in the garden. After an indeterminate amount of time as Adam had the task of giving names to all the animals, God must have noticed in Adam a pensive demeanor and recognized the loneliness for ones kind. “It is not good for man to be alone”. Adam must have in his heart and mind, in his bones, so to speak, felt something missing. These internal reflections even without the benefit of any definitive concept of what a woman, a helper, a human friend would be like, were affecting his happiness even in the presence of the Almighty.
It is interesting to note here that God, for His own good pleasure, desired the companionship of man. Apparently man exhibited an innate predisposition for human companionship also. We see that inherent in the nature of man, despite the walks in a perfect garden and his personal relationship with God, Adam had the desire for fellowship with his “kind”.
The command was given to Adam not to eat from the tree. The serpent targeted Eve. Was Adams choice to disobey God, an act of free will, or was it imprinted in his genome? Is God simply a puppet master? Of course not. Was the cause of his disobedience an overwhelming desire to please this magnificently enthralling creature an unavoidable response? (This was Eve, personally created by the Lord God, not some toad spewing primordial muck through pursed toad lips, wearily dragging herself out of ancient slime, envisioning a future in which she would evolve into a beautiful princess worthy of such a man.) Or, was he simply interested in the fruit itself? Was it doubt, as to whether any harsh or lasting consequences would be forthcoming? Did he choose lovely Eve and some forbidden fruit in the perfect garden setting, or did he have no choice at all? No autonomy.
Those who assert the principal of causal determinism, or Calvinism have no option but to proclaim his innocence for he was simply a small twig caught in the cascading currents of time. If so, why judge him harshly, or at all. Adam could have done no differently. He was predestined to fail. Not so. He was built with the ability to choose, and the Maker knew only one person would ever live a faultless life. If he was indeed innocent, why was he punished? Perhaps it really just a setup? A setup essential for the perfecting of the saints. The Lamb being slain before the foundations of the earth. Was it an essential process for the sanctification of the saints? Given that, “He (Christ) was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.” 1 Peter, 1:20 And, “The lamb was slain before the foundations of the earth.” God foresaw the plot of Satan and made provision for it. The only other option is to believe that Satan outfoxed God. Didn’t happen.
Abraham was the father of a nation and many of his progeny are/were lost. Adam is the father of humankind. Is he culpable, responsible for the fallen condition of all men? Scripture says he is, yet I contend he was simply the man on the spot, and any man would have transgressed on some issue. Failed to dot an i. If before eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he was held accountable for breaking a law, was this action the resulting banishment, cursed earth, pain in childbirth a precursor to the Law? Prior to the law there was no breaking of the law, yet men were judged and destroyed. What it gets down to is this, Do we have a choice?
We find that in the centuries prior to the law some men pleased God. They had the desire to know, believe and serve God without the need for written rules. We find that in Romans some still may. They have a law within themselves. Romans, 2:14
The idea that free agency and free will, provide within themselves adequate separation of purpose to constitute different entities is an exercise in a futile and never ending debate in semantics. Free will does not exist without the agent, and the agent, made in the image of God, cannot exist without free will. He is reduced to life as a zombie android. A cheap, plastic wind up toy, bouncing off the interior walls of a puppet masters cardboard box as the wagon rattles along.
God cannot lie, His record states He chose to create in His image, man with free agency. The directive, “Do not eat this fruit” presupposes Adam has the option of eating it. Gods will is evidenced in His decision to create man despite the foreknowledge that Adam would fail. Adam made a choice. Our God is the driving constant in the lives of His children, yet who among us has not made poor choices?
The call has gone out. Attendance is free. Many have heard the call. The acceptable response is to accept. I believe we have a choice, to embrace grace. To allow the Spirit of God to graft us onto the root, the foundation of our faith that we may produce His fruit. “That He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.” Romans 9:23
If God is not willing that any should perish, then apparently He is not exerting His will over his creation.
He is compelling.
He is assisting.
He is calling.
He is loving, supporting.
He has offered Himself as a bridge, giving His Son.
But, He is not forcing.
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
He owns the destination. He determined the course. Paved the way, has first aid stations everywhere you would possibly need one. He paid the entry fee. Will carry you when you fall, Shield you from attack and open escape route, encourage, support, comfort,, defend love and never leave you. There are some who rightfully argue, “God knew/knows a mans/Adams existence prior to his life and death.” True, yet the ability to choose Him, is an integral aspect of Adams perfection. God had a plan of redemption before creation. This fact is evidence of His love for His creation. And, His desire for reason and communion with mankind. He desired true love, not slavish, sycophantic behavior, enough to make the ultimate sacrifice while mankind yet remained a concept.
You must believe and have faith to recognize Him. Trust, repent, turn from self control and hand over the reins. True love requires the choice, the desire to know, to commune and walk as brothers of the Son, with our Maker.
Casual determinism is a philosophy the worlds scholars have kicked back and forth for centuries and with advances in science it will gain in popularity. “It’s not my fault, It’s just the way I’m wired.” Scripture tells us there will be no excuse. “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse. Romans, 1:20
We can kick predestination around till Christ returns and those who believe we have no free will and chose God will enter right along with those who choose to love serve and thank Christ for His overwhelming support and work in our hearts will be there right alongside them,. Because we all make that choice every day by the grace of God.
In Christ
Did Adam have the ability to choose? Did Adam have the capacity and information necessary to make an informed choice on obeying God’s command, “Do not eat”… Capacity, perhaps. Information, no. Prior to consumption of the fruit from the tree of knowledge, there was no knowledge of good and evil. What Adam and Eve had was an edict, a command with no explanation other than “you will die,” a concept he had no reference for. The fact is he was not then struck down, that did not occur until the age of 930.
Free will, Free agency. Does the free agent exercise free will? Does the agent have a specific faculty of will? Does causal determinism strictly exclude free will, or does it allow for partial free will?
This is relative as it pertains to, “how one is saved?” The freedom to choose to act or not is not determined by the ability nor the casual inability to act. The will is fulfilled by the determination to act. We are addressing the will, not the action. The inability to walk does not negate the determination to do so. We are discussing a relationship with God, not the decision to walk the dog or not, regardless of being incapacitated physically or prevented by external factors inhibiting physical action. We do not “wrestle against flesh and blood”. We are discussing FAITH. ‘If a man looks upon a woman with lust, he has committed adultery in his heart’.
Free agents have the faculties of intellect and will. The intellect/rational faculty cognates, as a result the intellect presents various options to the will as to a course of action. If Adam had the capacity to choose adherence to Gods edict, he certainly had the option to choose disobedience. Some may argue from a position that free will and free agency are separate and independent states, they are nondetachable. The agent responds and makes a decision based on the best information available, that decision within itself is an act of will. Some may assert a completely neutral heart as a prerequisite for making any decision of will. If indifference, lack of preference or bias are required attributes for the exercise of free will, human nature is replete with them.
God and Adam spent time walking in the garden. After an indeterminate amount of time as Adam had the task of giving names to all the animals, God must have noticed in Adam a pensive demeanor and recognized the loneliness for ones kind. “It is not good for man to be alone”. Adam must have in his heart and mind, in his bones, so to speak, felt something missing. These internal reflections even without the benefit of any definitive concept of what a woman, a helper, a human friend would be like, were affecting his happiness even in the presence of the Almighty.
It is interesting to note here that God, for His own good pleasure, desired the companionship of man. Apparently man exhibited an innate predisposition for human companionship also. We see that inherent in the nature of man, despite the walks in a perfect garden and his personal relationship with God, Adam had the desire for fellowship with his “kind”.
The command was given to Adam not to eat from the tree. The serpent targeted Eve. Was Adams choice to disobey God, an act of free will, or was it imprinted in his genome? Is God simply a puppet master? Of course not. Was the cause of his disobedience an overwhelming desire to please this magnificently enthralling creature an unavoidable response? (This was Eve, personally created by the Lord God, not some toad spewing primordial muck through pursed toad lips, wearily dragging herself out of ancient slime, envisioning a future in which she would evolve into a beautiful princess worthy of such a man.) Or, was he simply interested in the fruit itself? Was it doubt, as to whether any harsh or lasting consequences would be forthcoming? Did he choose lovely Eve and some forbidden fruit in the perfect garden setting, or did he have no choice at all? No autonomy.
Those who assert the principal of causal determinism, or Calvinism have no option but to proclaim his innocence for he was simply a small twig caught in the cascading currents of time. If so, why judge him harshly, or at all. Adam could have done no differently. He was predestined to fail. Not so. He was built with the ability to choose, and the Maker knew only one person would ever live a faultless life. If he was indeed innocent, why was he punished? Perhaps it really just a setup? A setup essential for the perfecting of the saints. The Lamb being slain before the foundations of the earth. Was it an essential process for the sanctification of the saints? Given that, “He (Christ) was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.” 1 Peter, 1:20 And, “The lamb was slain before the foundations of the earth.” God foresaw the plot of Satan and made provision for it. The only other option is to believe that Satan outfoxed God. Didn’t happen.
Abraham was the father of a nation and many of his progeny are/were lost. Adam is the father of humankind. Is he culpable, responsible for the fallen condition of all men? Scripture says he is, yet I contend he was simply the man on the spot, and any man would have transgressed on some issue. Failed to dot an i. If before eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he was held accountable for breaking a law, was this action the resulting banishment, cursed earth, pain in childbirth a precursor to the Law? Prior to the law there was no breaking of the law, yet men were judged and destroyed. What it gets down to is this, Do we have a choice?
We find that in the centuries prior to the law some men pleased God. They had the desire to know, believe and serve God without the need for written rules. We find that in Romans some still may. They have a law within themselves. Romans, 2:14
The idea that free agency and free will, provide within themselves adequate separation of purpose to constitute different entities is an exercise in a futile and never ending debate in semantics. Free will does not exist without the agent, and the agent, made in the image of God, cannot exist without free will. He is reduced to life as a zombie android. A cheap, plastic wind up toy, bouncing off the interior walls of a puppet masters cardboard box as the wagon rattles along.
God cannot lie, His record states He chose to create in His image, man with free agency. The directive, “Do not eat this fruit” presupposes Adam has the option of eating it. Gods will is evidenced in His decision to create man despite the foreknowledge that Adam would fail. Adam made a choice. Our God is the driving constant in the lives of His children, yet who among us has not made poor choices?
The call has gone out. Attendance is free. Many have heard the call. The acceptable response is to accept. I believe we have a choice, to embrace grace. To allow the Spirit of God to graft us onto the root, the foundation of our faith that we may produce His fruit. “That He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.” Romans 9:23
If God is not willing that any should perish, then apparently He is not exerting His will over his creation.
He is compelling.
He is assisting.
He is calling.
He is loving, supporting.
He has offered Himself as a bridge, giving His Son.
But, He is not forcing.
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
He owns the destination. He determined the course. Paved the way, has first aid stations everywhere you would possibly need one. He paid the entry fee. Will carry you when you fall, Shield you from attack and open escape route, encourage, support, comfort,, defend love and never leave you. There are some who rightfully argue, “God knew/knows a mans/Adams existence prior to his life and death.” True, yet the ability to choose Him, is an integral aspect of Adams perfection. God had a plan of redemption before creation. This fact is evidence of His love for His creation. And, His desire for reason and communion with mankind. He desired true love, not slavish, sycophantic behavior, enough to make the ultimate sacrifice while mankind yet remained a concept.
You must believe and have faith to recognize Him. Trust, repent, turn from self control and hand over the reins. True love requires the choice, the desire to know, to commune and walk as brothers of the Son, with our Maker.
Casual determinism is a philosophy the worlds scholars have kicked back and forth for centuries and with advances in science it will gain in popularity. “It’s not my fault, It’s just the way I’m wired.” Scripture tells us there will be no excuse. “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse. Romans, 1:20
We can kick predestination around till Christ returns and those who believe we have no free will and chose God will enter right along with those who choose to love serve and thank Christ for His overwhelming support and work in our hearts will be there right alongside them,. Because we all make that choice every day by the grace of God.
In Christ
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Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
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God foreordained a Church, a body of believers. The individuals are the ones who are invited and show up for the wedding feast. Mat, 22:2 The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. … Many are called, but few are chosen.
2nd Peter, 1:11. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. We must believe and respond. Belief alone is not enough. “You believe that there is one God; you do well: the devils also believe, and tremble.” James 2:19
2nd Peter, 1:11. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. We must believe and respond. Belief alone is not enough. “You believe that there is one God; you do well: the devils also believe, and tremble.” James 2:19
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I have enjoyed reading your posts, but do not agree with all you have said.
Let’s begin with Adam and Eve:
Adam is described as being made, “Very Good”, which in God’s eyes I would think to be as “Good” as a human could be made, but that does not mean a clone of Christ since Christ is not a made being, so what important thing is Adam lacking?
We do not know how intelligent Adam was, but we do know he was programmed (raised) to adulthood by the greatest parent a person could have (God Himself). God would have programmed into Adam definitions for words, so when God said “die”, Adam would have known what it meant like Adam knew the meaning to all other words.
If Adam is lacking something then I have an excuse for not wanting “him” as my representative and/or feel I could have done better.
What Adam lacks which he really needed and could not provide by God, to him and thus the reason all humans spend time on earth.
It was not the lack of knowledge of Good and Evil Adam lacked, because at the time he and Eve did not need that knowledge, they did have the knowledge of right and wrong, just as it is wrong to play near a cliff, since you might fall over and die, but it is not evil to play by a cliff.
I am thus thankful to Adam and Eve for the time they spent in the Garden showing them and all of us: “Why the Garden is a lousy (impossible) place for humans to fulfill their earthly objective”.
Free will cannot be scientifically proven and might be totally outside the natural world, thus a very special gift of very limited Godly provided autonomous free will power given humans.
Mature adult humans make lots of insignificant choices that would not need to be free will choice, but there is one huge choice they need free will to make and it is not a noble, righteous, worthy, honorable or glorious choice but one made with sinful selfishness (thus not righteous).
Adults reach “come to their senses” points in their lives at least for a while, in which they can continue pursuing the perceived pleasures of sin, spiraling down into the pigsty or wimp out, give up and surrender to their enemy. There are reasons to stay the course, be macho, pay the piper and take the punishment you fully deserve and not wimp out. The mature adult choses to surrender to his/her hated enemy while their enemy is still being hated in just hopes of having some kind of underserved livable life. The choice to give up and just be willing to accept from your hated enemy pure undeserved charity, allows God to shower the person with unbelievable wonderful gifts. God is not going to try to force His Love on the sinner, since that would be like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun.
Something for you to think about.
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A lot depends on the teacher/parent raising the child to adulthood how intimate the “knowledge” can be. In this case God is the teacher.
Yes, sin is inevitable for all mature adults, but is it not also necessary to complete the objective?
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If Christ needed to die for our mistakes, and He did, the sacrifice in essence needed to be executed in the natural world at the proper time. He came when that time was ripe, (Full) though scripture tells us that the lamb was slain before the foundations of the earth.
In Christ
In Christ
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This gets into the huge topic of atonement, which would derail this thread.
The fact Christ was slain before the foundation of the earth, tell me God is not limited to human time and is outside of human time, but also living inside of man’s time all at the “same” time.
Science has tried to disprove the relativity of time for the last 100 years, but all experiment have supported the idea. So how relative would time be for God?
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Of course God is apart, before and after natural time. Natural time is a construct of creation. There is no time in eternity. God is eternal, therefore no beginning and no end. Time is simply a method by which we measure events. our bodies and everything in nature has a beginning and end, a life span, stars etc.. Eventually even this natural universe.
There will be a Spiritual home where spirits will reside for eternally though they have had a beginning in this natural world.
Elect is chosen. I believe I addressed that some posts ago. I don't know that God lives inside time as we see or experience it. It exists because of Him and is held together by Him. There are very few individuals in scripture that God pre-purposed such as Pharaoh. The Church, the bride of Christ as a body was determined to be built. Individuals chose to accept the grace of God or reject.
In Christ
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Good Day, Jesusthekingofking
The 2 words defined that will help you to understand their correct usage and grammar in the context which they appear.
Predestined
Thayer Definition:
1) to predetermine, decide beforehand
2) in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
3) to foreordain, appoint beforehand
Part of Speech: verb
Elect
Thayer Definition:
1) picked out, chosen
1a) chosen by God
1a1) to obtain salvation through Christ
1a1a) Christians are called “chosen or elect” of God
1a2) the Messiah in called “elect”, as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
1a3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians
Part of Speech: adjective
Chosen
Thayer Definition:
1) to pick out, choose, to pick or choose out for one’s self
1a) choosing one out of many, i.e. Jesus choosing his disciples
1b) choosing one for an office
1c) of God choosing whom he judged fit to receive his favours and separated from the rest of mankind to be peculiarly his own and to be attended continually by his gracious oversight
1c1) i.e. the Israelites
1d) of God the Father choosing Christians, as those whom he set apart from the irreligious multitude as dear unto himself, and whom he has rendered, through faith in Christ, citizens in the Messianic kingdom: (Jas_2:5) so that the ground of the choice lies in Christ and his merits only
Part of Speech: verb
In Him,
Bill
The 2 words defined that will help you to understand their correct usage and grammar in the context which they appear.
Predestined
Thayer Definition:
1) to predetermine, decide beforehand
2) in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
3) to foreordain, appoint beforehand
Part of Speech: verb
Elect
Thayer Definition:
1) picked out, chosen
1a) chosen by God
1a1) to obtain salvation through Christ
1a1a) Christians are called “chosen or elect” of God
1a2) the Messiah in called “elect”, as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
1a3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians
Part of Speech: adjective
Chosen
Thayer Definition:
1) to pick out, choose, to pick or choose out for one’s self
1a) choosing one out of many, i.e. Jesus choosing his disciples
1b) choosing one for an office
1c) of God choosing whom he judged fit to receive his favours and separated from the rest of mankind to be peculiarly his own and to be attended continually by his gracious oversight
1c1) i.e. the Israelites
1d) of God the Father choosing Christians, as those whom he set apart from the irreligious multitude as dear unto himself, and whom he has rendered, through faith in Christ, citizens in the Messianic kingdom: (Jas_2:5) so that the ground of the choice lies in Christ and his merits only
Part of Speech: verb
In Him,
Bill
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