Are you saved because you believe? Or do you believe because you are saved?

Kenny'sID said:

Show me.

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Kenny'sID said:

Did you have something to say? Did you disagree with something i saId? Quouting nothing but scripture means very little without some context for why you are quoting it.

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RickReads said:

No need, he says one sin and you are out of the kingdom on a routine basis. Look it up yourself I`m not in Missouri.

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Minister Monardo said:

I was disagreeing with this statement you made in post 31.
"Would you like me to get into the other term there..."Dead", as in doesn't exist?"
I later noted that you quoted John 5:28 concerning the dead hearing the voice of the
Son and resurrecting to judgment. I said, after this comes the second death.
Maybe I misunderstood the meaning of dead, as in doesn't exist? The dead still exist.

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Jesus is YHWH said:

Ok no problem I will not discuss it with you anymore as there are many other things to discuss. No hard feelings as the free will argument no matter which side of the fence we are on is not salvific since Salvation is of the Lord !

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1an said:

Oh, but freewill is important. We come to Jesus of our own freewill. He offers us salvation, he does not shove it down our throat.

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Jesus is YHWH said:

Lets see what God says not one personal opinion/indoctrination.

Lets just see how God paints the picture of man in his sinful state post fall.

Jeremiah 13:23- Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

above we see man can do nothing to change his condition no more than a man can change the color of his skin or the leopard his spots. The same with sin and scripture makes it clear in numerous places we were dead in our sins when Christ made us alive.

Rom. 3:10-12, "as it is written, ‘There is none righteous, not even one; 11 There is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; 12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless. There is none who does good, there is not even one.’"

Romans 6:16- Do you not know that when you offer yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness?

2 Corinthians 1:9 Indeed, in our hearts we felt the sentence of death. But this happened that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead-

Only God can raise the dead to life, and we were dead in our sins when He made us alive.

John 3:3- No one can see the Kingdom of God unless they are born again.

Only the new birth which comes from God, not ourselves is how we can see His Kingdom.

John 1:13- children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God.

John 5:21- For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.

John 3:27, "John answered and said, 'A man can receive nothing, unless it has been given him from heaven.'"

John 6:44, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:65, "And He was saying, ‘For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.’"

Coming to Christ can only happen when He draws us and enables us to come, its impossible to come by our free will since we are slaves of sin, in bondage to sin, and sin is our master.

hope this helps !!!

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Dave L said:

Part of God's wrath is spiritual blindness. The Pharisees were prime examples. If we cannot grasp this, we are possibly still under his wrath. Saving us from hell and ourselves is included.

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1an said:

Get real man, God did not make us zombies.

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1an said:

Jesus says, he does not shove it down our collective throats.

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nonaeroterraqueous said:

You argue against a position that no one holds. No one, here, claims that God made us zombies.



I had a little trouble finding scripture on that one.

Hezekiah 4:1 "Thus sayeth the Lord, I shall not my salvation down your collective throat shove, nor will I cause thee to be zombies."

Yeah, no one claims that anything is being shoved down anyone's throat. As a Calvinist, I find your arguments hard to take seriously, because you can't effectively tell me why I'm wrong when it's clear you don't even understand what I believe.

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BNR32FAN said:

Blessings to you friend, where do you find this in scripture? I’ve already shown 13 people who repented and believed before receiving the Holy Spirit. Cornelius and the 12 disciples Paul baptized in Ephesus who hadn’t received the Holy Spirit yet. Why do you think Jesus performed miracles when He preached? It was to provide evidence that He was in favor with God to convince people to believe. The people still had to make the choice to believe because not everyone who witnessed the miracles believed. Please keep in mind that once we receive the Holy Spirit we are forever sealed with Him. That’s not to say that we cannot grieve Him thru disobedience or that our salvation remains if we continue in disobedience but He will forever convict us of our sing urging us to repent. The Holy Spirit is like a compass always pointing towards God. He does not steer the boat. If we fall asleep at the wheel we may wake to find ourself way off course or even worse, shipwrecked. Please help me understand where you see in the scriptures that the Holy Spirit makes a person believe.



Where is this in scripture also? Your wording here seems to suggest that your teaching this as doctrine not merely speculation.



The early church taught that Adam & Eve received the knowledge of both good and evil when they ate from the tree of knowledge and afterwards were capable of doing both. Irenaeus wrote...

Man has received the knowledge of good and evil. It is good to obey God, and to believe in Him, and to keep His commandment, and this is the life of man; as not to obey God is evil, and this is his death. Since God, therefore, gave [to man] such mental power (magnanimitatem) man knew both the good of obedience and the evil of disobedience, that the eye of the mind, receiving experience of both, may with judgment make choice of the better things; and that he may never become indolent or neglectful of God's command; and learning by experience that it is an evil thing which deprives him of life, that is, disobedience to God, may never attempt it at all, but that, knowing that what preserves his life, namely, obedience to God, is good, he may diligently keep it with all earnestness. Wherefore he has also had a twofold experience, possessing knowledge of both kinds, that with discipline he may make choice of the better things. But how, if he had no knowledge of the contrary, could he have had instruction in that which is good? For there is thus a surer and an undoubted comprehension of matters submitted to us than the mere surmise arising from an opinion regarding them. For just as the tongue receives experience of sweet and bitter by means of tasting, and the eye discriminates between black and white by means of vision, and the ear recognises the distinctions of sounds by hearing; so also does the mind, receiving through the experience of both the knowledgeof what is good, become more tenacious of its preservation, by acting in obedience to God: in the first place, casting away, by means of repentance, disobedience, as being something disagreeable and nauseous; and afterwards coming to understand what it really is, that it is contrary to goodness and sweetness, so that the mind may never even attempt to taste disobedience to God. But if any one do shun the knowledge of both these kinds of things, and the twofold perception of knowledge, he unawares divests himself of the character of a human being.


2. How, then, shall he be a God, who has not as yet been made a man? Or how can he be perfect who was but lately created? How, again, can he be immortal, who in his mortal nature did not obey his Maker? For it must be that you, at the outset, should hold the rank of a man, and then afterwards partake of the glory of God. For you did not make God, but God you. If, then, you are God's workmanship, await the hand of your Maker which creates everything in due time; in due time as far as you are concerned, whose creation is being carried out. Offer to Him your heart in a soft and tractable state, and preserve the form in which the Creator has fashioned you, having moisture in yourself, lest, by becoming hardened, you lose the impressions of His fingers. But by preserving the framework you shall ascend to that which is perfect, for the moist clay which is in you is hidden [there] by the workmanship of God. His hand fashioned your substance; He will cover you over [too] within and without with pure gold and silver, and He will adorn you to such a degree, that even the King Himself shall have pleasure in your beauty. But if you, being obstinately hardened, reject the operation of His skill, and show yourself ungrateful towards Him, because you were created a [mere] man, by becoming thus ungrateful to God, you have at once lost both His workmanship and life. For creation is an attribute of the goodness of God but to be created is that of human nature. If then, you shall deliver up to Him what is yours, that is, faith towards Him and subjection, you shall receive His handiwork, and shall be a perfect work of God.


3. If, however, you will not believe in Him, and will flee from His hands, the cause of imperfection shall be in you who did not obey, but not in Him who called [you]. For He commissioned [messengers] to call people to the marriage, but they who did not obey Him deprived themselves of the royal supper. Matthew 22:3, etc. The skill of God, therefore, is not defective, for He has power of the stones to raise up children to Abraham; Matthew 3:9but the man who does not obtain it is the causeto himself of his own imperfection. Nor, [in like manner], does the light fail because of those who have blinded themselves; but while it remains the same as ever, those who are [thus] blinded are involved in darkness through their own fault. The light does never enslave any one by necessity; nor, again, does God exercise compulsion upon any one unwilling to accept the exercise of His skill. Those persons, therefore, who have apostatized from the light given by the Father, and transgressed the law of liberty, have done so through their own fault, since they have been created free agents, and possessed of power over themselves.


4. But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to personswho oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. For those persons who shun rest shall justly incur punishment, and those who avoid the light shall justly dwell in darkness. For as in the case of this temporal light, those who shun it do deliver themselves over to darkness, so that they do themselves become the cause to themselves that they are destitute of light, and do inhabit darkness; and, as I have already observed, the light is not the cause of such an [unhappy] condition of existence to them; so those who fly from the eternal light of God, which contains in itself all good things, are themselves the cause to themselves of their inhabiting eternal darkness, destitute of all goodthings, having become to themselves the cause of [their consignment to] an abode of that nature.

St Iranaeus 170AD Adversus Haereses Book 4 Chapter 39

It’s interesting how those who prefer the darkness are given exactly that by God in their judgement. Seems fitting doesn’t it?

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Minister Monardo said:

Revelation 14:
6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people—
7 saying with a loud voice, Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.

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eleos1954 said:

It seems you are not following what I am asking about. And am searching scripture in this regard.

We know the biblical teachings ... through His Word He has given great light. So, once again what about people who did not/do not have access to this light.

Now ... salvation is totally through Jesus for all time(s) ... and that is absolutely true.

Let me ask the question differently.

Can a person be saved who never heard the name of Jesus be saved.

So ... this would also include young children .... thousands and thousands since the beginning of time and even so today and onwards.

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1an said:

Rom. 3:10-12, "as it is written, ‘There is none righteous, not even one; 11 There is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; [NO ELECTION THERE] 12 All have turned aside, [BACKSLIDERS] together they have become useless. There is none who does good, there is not even one.’"

Romans 6:16- Do you not know that when you offer [OF OUR OWN FREEWILL] yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness?

Get real man, God did not make us zombies. See my signature for backsliding.
.

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Dave L said:

But the sinner must be saved before he could believe enough to take Christ seriously.

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