Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,316
568
56
Mount Morris
✟124,857.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
You have a very serious reading comprehension problem. I never indicated that the rebellion starts before the 1000 years are over. Not even close. So, I have no idea how you got that from what I said.

Also, your claim that the first day of creation was 1000 years in duration is complete nonsense and it's not even worth my time to respond to that any further.
I never said the first day of creation was 1000 years. I said the first Lord's Day was 1000 years. Nothing about the Lord's Day or Day of the Lord amil seem to like. They only bring out the wrath and judgment it takes to rid the earth of sin, in order for God to initiate a proper Lord's Day. They deal with the sin, and then throw God out of the picture as well. They are like Satan and think they have a better way of doing things than how God Himself handles God's creation.


Most Amil complain the whole 1000 years is defunct with sin. I give rebellion in the last 2 years at the most. Why reject the whole 1000 year reign of Christ because a small percentage of humanity rebels after 998 years? I say 3 billion is a small percentage of 30 billion. Think about it. In the last 300 years we have gone from 1 billion to 7 billion. If we had not had any wars, nor plagues, nor famine, nor greedy money lustfull dictators, and only natural deaths at 120 years of age, how "over populated" it would be so people would really "have" something to complain about. That is 300 years. Now times that by 3. 900 years of near perfect birth rate, where no one naturally dies. They have to be put to death. As for accidents. What level of technology are we talking about? Going to Mars?
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,316
568
56
Mount Morris
✟124,857.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
No, there is not. It mentions "the people of the kingdom" and "the people of the evil one". No other group is mentioned. Has someone taught you these things or did you come up with them yourself? You seem to have a lot of private interpretations.
As I replied to Iamlamad. The righteous who shine as the stars. Our spirit is a robe of light. God is light. The full image of God is light. The church in glorified bodies, with our spirit as a robe of light. The robe of white is symbolic for the light of the stars. The light of the stars is symbolic for those in Christ restored to the full image of God.

Does no one understand that the angels were the stars in the level of heaven. God's image were stars on earth. Both were light bearers. The biggest difference was we were the image of God, sons of God. Angels were just created ministers of God's direct will. Angels had no freedom to act on their thoughts. Humans had free will to act out on earth what God does in heaven. Angels had all knowledge, no ability to act. Humans had all the ability to act and learned by doing. Adam's task was to name the animals as Adam saw fit. Learn by doing.
 
Upvote 0

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,972
913
Africa
Visit site
✟183,148.00
Country
South Africa
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It's not clear from what you said in this post, but I believe you do think that some repentant mortals will enter the millennial kingdom, right? If so, then does that not contradict what Paul said here:

1 Cor 15:50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
The imperishable = the new heavens and the new earth after the last enemy - death - has been defeated; after death and hades have delivered up the dead still in them; after the GWT.

If the thousand years has mortals living during that time, it's different to the time we are living in now in the following ways: Satan will be (really, truly) bound and shut in the abyss; the satanic spirit will be causing absolutely no hindrance to the Kingdom of Christ and the spread of the gospel; and those who had died in Christ before the thousand years will have been resurrected, ruling over the nations under Christ, and the second death will have no power over them.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,972
913
Africa
Visit site
✟183,148.00
Country
South Africa
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Did you not know that Revelation 19:15 is directly referencing the prophecy of Psalm 2:9 which means it is the fulfillment of Psalm 2:9? So, Psalm 2:9 gives us more insight into what "ruling" with a rod of iron really means. It means to break or destroy the nations. It goes right along with the rest of Rev 19:15 which speaks of Him smiting the nations and treading the winepress of God's wrath on them.

What sense would it make to speak of smiting the nations and treading the winepress of God's wrath on them and at the same time speak of shepherding them? Does that really make any sense?

Why would He only destroy some of them, but not the rest? What is it about the unbelievers He doesn't take His wrath out on that is different than the unbelievers He does take His wrath out on?
First He defeats the beast, casting it and its false prophet into the lake of fire. Then He shepherds the nations with a rod of iron.

Take a look at the Greek word - it's shepherd. Compare the difference in the Greek between striking the nations and shepherding the nations in Rev 19:15:

KJV
Rev 2:27 And he will rule (Greek ποιμαίνω poimaínō) them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of a potter they will be broken to pieces, even as I received from My Father.

Greek ποιμαίνω poimaínō (as seen in the above verse) G4165, from G4166 to tend as a shepherd of (figuratively, superviser):--feed (cattle), rule.

Same word used in Rev 12:5 for "rule" over the nations.

Same word used in Rev 19:15, after it's said He will strike the nations with His sword:

Rev 19:15 And out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, so that with it He should strike (Greek πατάσσω patássō) the nations. And He will shepherd ((Greek ποιμαίνω poimaínō)) them with a rod of iron. And He treads the winepress of the wine of the anger and of the wrath of Almighty God.

Greek πατάσσω patássō G3960 probably prolongation from G3817; to knock (gently or with a weapon or fatally):--smite, strike. Compare G5180.

Ps 2:9 You shall break (Hebrew râ‛a‛) them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Hebrew râ‛a‛ H7489
A primitive root; properly to spoil (literally by breaking to pieces); figuratively to make (or be) good for {nothing} that {is} bad ({physically} socially or morally). (associate selves and show self friendly are by mistake for H7462.): - {afflict} associate selves [by mistake for {H7462]} break ({down} in {pieces}) + {displease} ({be} {bring} do) evil ({doer} {entreat} {man}) show self friendly [by mistake for {H7462]} do {harm} (do) {hurt} (behave {self} deal) {ill} X {indeed} do {mischief} {punish} still {vex} (do) wicked ({doer} {-ly}) be ({deal} do) worse.

Notice how Rev 19:15 speaks about Christ striking the nations with His sharp sword, and how He will shepherd them with a rod of iron?

Ps 2:1-9 Why do the nations rage, and the peoples meditate on a vain thing?
The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers plot together, against the LORD and against His anointed, saying,
Let us break their bands in two and cast away their cords from us.
He who sits in the heavens shall laugh; the LORD shall mock at them.
Then He shall speak to them in His anger, and trouble them in His wrath.
Yea, I have set My king on My holy hill, on Zion.


I will declare the decree of the LORD. He has said to Me, You are My Son; today I have begotten You.
Ask of Me, and I shall give the nations for Your inheritance; and the uttermost parts of the earth for Your possession.
You shall break
(Hebrew râ‛a‛) them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

In the Revelation we are told about the beast gathering its armies against the Lamb, and being defeated by Him before being cast into the lake of fire. Psalm 2 closes with,

"And now be wise, O kings; be instructed, O judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and you perish from the way, when His wrath is kindled in but a little time. Blessed are all who put their trust in Him."

So anyway, the Hebrew in Psalm 2 talks about Christ breaking the nations (with a rod of iron), and the Revelation talks about Him shepherding the nations (with a rod of iron) after smiting them with the sword from His mouth.

@BABerean2

KJV

Psalm 2:9
Thou shalt break 07489 them with a rod 07626 of iron 01270; thou shalt dash them in pieces 05310 like a potter’s 03335 vessel 03627.

Rev 2:26-27
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations
And 2532 he shall rule 4165 them 846 with 1722 a rod 4464 of iron 4603; as 5613 the vessels 3588 4632 of a potter 2764 shall they be broken to shivers 4937: even as 5613 I 2504 received 2983 of 3844 my 3450 Father 3588 3962 .

Rev 12:5
And 2532 she brought forth 5088 a man 730 child 5207, who 3739 was to 3195 rule 4165 all 3956 nations 3588 1484 with 1722 a rod 4464 of iron 4603: and 2532 her 846 child 3588 5043 was caught up 726 unto 4314 God 3588 2316, and 2532 to his 846 throne 3588 2362.

Greek ποιμαίνω poimaínō (as seen in the above verses) G4165, from G4166 to tend as a shepherd of (figuratively, superviser):--feed (cattle), rule.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,972
913
Africa
Visit site
✟183,148.00
Country
South Africa
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Revelation 2:27

(ESV) and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father.

(ESV+) and R5he will R6ruleN1 them with a rod of iron, R7as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father.

(Geneva) And he shall rule them with a rodde of yron: and as the vessels of a potter, shall they be broken.

(GW) Those people will rule the nations with iron scepters and shatter them like pottery.

(KJV) And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

(KJV+) AndG2532 he shall ruleG4165 themG846 withG1722 a rodG4464 of iron;G4603 asG5613 theG3588 vesselsG4632 of a potterG2764 shall they be broken to shivers:G4937 even asG5613 IG2504 receivedG2983 ofG3844 myG3450 Father.G3962


G4937
συντρίβω
suntribō
soon-tree'-bo
From G4862 and the base of G5147; to crush completely, that is, to shatter (literally or figuratively): - break (in pieces), broken to shivers (+ -hearted), bruise.
Total KJV occurrences: 8


(NKJV) 'HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON; THEY SHALL BE DASHED TO PIECES LIKE THE POTTER'S VESSELS'—as I also have received from My Father;

(YLT) and he shall rule them with a rod of iron—as the vessels of the potter they shall be broken—as I also have received from my Father;


.
KJV
Psalm 2:9
Thou shalt break 07489 them with a rod 07626 of iron 01270; thou shalt dash them in pieces 05310 like a potter’s 03335 vessel 03627.

Rev 2:26-27
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations
And 2532 he shall rule 4165 them 846 with 1722 a rod 4464 of iron 4603; as 5613 the vessels 3588 4632 of a potter 2764 shall they be broken to shivers 4937: even as 5613 I 2504 received 2983 of 3844 my 3450 Father 3588 3962 .

Rev 12:5
And 2532 she brought forth 5088 a man 730 child 5207, who 3739 was to 3195 rule 4165 all 3956 nations 3588 1484 with 1722 a rod 4464 of iron 4603: and 2532 her 846 child 3588 5043 was caught up 726 unto 4314 God 3588 2316, and 2532 to his 846 throne 3588 2362.

[*StrongsGreek*] 04165 ποιμαίνω POIMAI/NW poimaínō poy-mah'-ee-no
from G4166;
to tend as a shepherd of (figuratively, superviser):--feed (cattle), rule.

The word used in the Greek Apocalypse for "rule" in the sentence "rule with a rod of iron", is translated into English as shepherd.

Hence, it is a fact that the idea being expressed by the Greek New Testament in the Revelation is Christ striking the nations with the sword of His mouth and shepherding them with a rod of iron.

Rev 19:15 And out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, so that with it He should strike (Greek πατάσσω patássō) the nations. And He will shepherd ((Greek 04165 ποιμαίνω poimaínō)) them with a rod of iron. And He treads the winepress of the wine of the anger and of the wrath of Almighty God.

Too bad this fact collides with Amill theology.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Too bad this fact collides with Amill theology.


Revelation 2:27

(ESV) and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father.

(ESV+) and R5he will R6ruleN1 them with a rod of iron, R7as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father.

(Geneva) And he shall rule them with a rodde of yron: and as the vessels of a potter, shall they be broken.

(GW) Those people will rule the nations with iron scepters and shatter them like pottery.

(KJV) And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

(KJV+) AndG2532 he shall ruleG4165 themG846 withG1722 a rodG4464 of iron;G4603 asG5613 theG3588 vesselsG4632 of a potterG2764 shall they be broken to shivers:G4937 even asG5613 IG2504 receivedG2983 ofG3844 myG3450 Father.G3962

(NKJV) 'HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON; THEY SHALL BE DASHED TO PIECES LIKE THE POTTER'S VESSELS'—as I also have received from My Father;

(YLT) and he shall rule them with a rod of iron—as the vessels of the potter they shall be broken—as I also have received from my Father;


To bad for Premill that some of us are able to read the entire verse, including the part about being "broken to shivers".

We do not have to ignore part of the verse to make our man-made doctrine work.

.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Spiritual Jew
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You are thinking with the knowledge of good and evil. If you can remove such knowledge from your mind, you would know what happens in the Millennium.


You are talking about a reversal of the curse, which means there would be no mortals left alive on the planet.

See the words of Jesus in Matthew 25:31-46, and remove the knowledge of mortals left alive on the planet after the Second Coming.


Why would Jesus need to use a rod of Iron like a schoolmaster during your version of the Millennium, if there is no evil during that time?


.
 
Upvote 0

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,972
913
Africa
Visit site
✟183,148.00
Country
South Africa
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Revelation 2:27

(ESV) and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father.

(ESV+) and R5he will R6ruleN1 them with a rod of iron, R7as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father.

(Geneva) And he shall rule them with a rodde of yron: and as the vessels of a potter, shall they be broken.

(GW) Those people will rule the nations with iron scepters and shatter them like pottery.

(KJV) And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

(KJV+) AndG2532 he shall ruleG4165 themG846 withG1722 a rodG4464 of iron;G4603 asG5613 theG3588 vesselsG4632 of a potterG2764 shall they be broken to shivers:G4937 even asG5613 IG2504 receivedG2983 ofG3844 myG3450 Father.G3962

(NKJV) 'HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON; THEY SHALL BE DASHED TO PIECES LIKE THE POTTER'S VESSELS'—as I also have received from My Father;

(YLT) and he shall rule them with a rod of iron—as the vessels of the potter they shall be broken—as I also have received from my Father;


To bad for Premill that some of us are able to read the entire verse, including the part about being "broken to shivers".

We do not have to ignore part of the verse to make our man-made doctrine work.

.
It's you who's ignoring the first part of the verse - the word shepherd. He will dash the nations who seek to rebel, and He will shepherd those who are obedient:

Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken (G4917 συνθλάω synthláō): but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind (G3039 λικμάω likmós) him to powder.

G4917
συνθλάω SUNQLA/W synthláō soon-thlah'-o
from G4862 and thlao (to crush); to dash together, i.e. shatter:--break.

G3039
λικμάω LIKMA/W likmáō lik-mah'-o
from λικμός LIKMO/S likmós, the equivalent of λίκνον LI/KNON líknon (a winnowing fan or basket); to winnow, i.e. (by analogy), to triturate:--grind to powder.

Mat 2:27 And he will rule (ποιμαίνω poimaínō shepherd) them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of a potter they will be broken (συντρίβω syntríbō crushed) to pieces, even as I received from My Father.

Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken (G4917 συνθλάω synthláō): but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind (G3039 λικμάω likmós) him to powder.

You're just dancing around with the meaning of the word ποιμαίνω poimaínō shepherd in the verses in order to fit them in with a symbolic thousand years.
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,316
568
56
Mount Morris
✟124,857.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Many premils believe that based on their understanding of Isaiah 65:17-25. They see that passage as referring to the millennial time period and they see a reference in that passage to people dying during that time.
Death is still considered a curse. Death is the last enemy to be defeated. Amil have to prove there is no death, because they place these verses into the next reality. We just do not have enough information either way.
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,316
568
56
Mount Morris
✟124,857.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Why would people who follow Christ not be considered Christians who are in the church? That is ludicrous.

When did Paul ever indicate that the following would not be true at some point in the future?

Galatians 3:26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

It should be obvious that this is a description of those who are part of the church. So, show me a scripture which indicates that this verse won't be true anymore at some point in the future.
Revelation 10:5-7

5 Then the angel I saw standing on the sea and on the land lifted his right hand toward heaven
6 and swore by the One who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it: “There will be no more delay;
7 on the contrary, in the days of the sound from the seventh angel when he sounds his shofar, the hidden plan of God will be brought to completion, the Good News as he proclaimed it to his servants the prophets.”

The hidden plan of God will be brought to completion. After the 7th Trumpet it is over. Now you jam everything into that one Trumpet, and AVOID the 7 seals, 6 Trumpets, and 7 Thunders "like the plague". You reject the Lord's Day. To Amil that 7th Trumpet is all or nothing.

The church was completed in the 5th and 6th seal. Revelation 7 declares the church finished and with God in His Temple. Paradise is God’s temple prepared for Adam and his descendants. Abel used the alter that God set up.

The 6 Trumpets sounding is God dealing with the Nation of Israel and the separation of the sheep from the goats. The Thunders are the harvest of the wheat out of the Nations of the earth.

To rightly divide Revelation, one has to separate the chapters and let each set of Judgments speak for themselves.

Satan is left with the "empty" harvest field. God allows Satan several things in Revelation 13. 42 months being one of those things.

15 It (Satan) was allowed to put breath into the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast could even speak; and it (Satan) was allowed to cause anyone who would not worship the image of the beast to be put to death.

This is God allowing Satan to perform something unnatural. In the book of Job, we see Satan was not allowed to kill Job. The connotations that death is allowed, points to something more than humans just killing other humans. That already happens because of our sin nature and the knowledge of good and evil. No one needs to be allowed to kill other humans, we do that already.

The 7 vials are only poured out on Satan and those with the mark. Otherwise all other humanity is dead or beheaded. The battle of Armageddon is the final end to Adam's sinful offspring born in the image of Adam. I am not talking about dead people here. I am talking about the end of all the living breathing humanity. When the battle is finished in one hour, the 7th Trumpet stops sounding. Revelation 10:5-7 is completed.

Why does the 7th Trumpet last for 8 days and 42 months? It was only to last for 8 days. Remember that strong covenant Messiah made with the "leaders" for one week in Daniel? It had something to do with Satan getting 42 months, which divided a single 8 day week up twice. The first 8 day week was Palm Sunday to Resurrection Sunday. Jesus was crucified in the middle of that week. His tomb was sealed from Wed. To early Sunday morning (3 am?) The first watch after midnight. 3 whole days. 3 whole nights (evenings). Thursday, Friday, Saturday. 6 pm to 6pm each day. The Tomb was still sealed from 6pm to at least 3am. Another 6 to 9 hours.

So Jesus was "cut off" at 3.5 years. The rest of the 3.5 years would be the Seals, Trumpets, and Thunders. The 7th Trumpet is the last 8 day week of Celebration. The end of the hidden plan, the Good News found in all the OT prophecies. That covenant with Satan allowed for one more split in a week. The 8 day week of the 7th Trumpet. Now Satan gets 42 months, that divide that week into two parts. An angel who can only do God’s will continues to blow the Trumpet even during Satan's 42 months.

Now what happens the last 3.5 days leading up to the Sunday of the battle of Armageddon? It is now the end of Satan's 42 months. Revelation 11:7-12

7 When they finish their witnessing, the beast coming up out of the Abyss will fight against them, overcome them and kill them;
8 and their dead bodies will lie in the main street of the great city whose name, to reflect its spiritual condition, is “S’dom” and “Egypt” — the city where their Lord was executed on a stake.
9 Some from the nations, tribes, languages and peoples see their bodies for three-and-a-half days and do not permit the corpses to be placed in a tomb.
10 The people living in the Land rejoice over them, they celebrate and send each other gifts, because these two prophets tormented them so.
11 But after the three-and-a-half days a breath of life from God entered them, they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.
12 Then the two heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up into heaven in a cloud, while their enemies watched them.

While they lay dead for 3.5 days is when the 7 vials are poured out. The 7th being the earthquake mentioned in Revelation 11:13. Then on Sunday, the battle of Armageddon. That is it. Adam and the punishment is over and completed. No more sin. No more knowledge of good and evil. No more need for Salvation. The plan set up by God is complete. What happens in Revelation 20 is a brand new ball game and plan. That is why the prophets in the OT who see past the 7th Trumpet do not see clearly. They see Messiah and the 7 years, and judgment, but cannot explain the situation after all is completed. Do they actually see animals and long life? Do they see no more war and suffering? Yes, but they are not given the explicit details. Not even John in Revelation 20 gives us a living description to tie into the OT visions. He does not see a vision. He sees the beginning of the 1000 years and the end of the 1000 years. He is not shown one detail of the 1000 years. Amil claim they know more about it than John did.

John does give some detail of the next created reality. The one that we instantly go into, or it is created around us. It will not take 6 days like this created reality. This created reality that took 6 days which God planned, to represent the 6000 years, humans would suffer Adam's disobedience. Remember the Lord's Day to keep it holy. Separated unto God, without sin and the knowledge of good and evil. Peter says do not be ignorant of what a day is: With the Lord. Not "to" the Lord, but with the Lord.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,316
568
56
Mount Morris
✟124,857.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Incorruptible but not immortal? And you're accusing someone else of false teaching? Okay.

You are talking about how it will be in the age to come. Maybe you've never seen this passage:

Luke 20:34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

Which scripture is it that you think supports your private interpretations? Does it bother you at all that you hold to views that no one else has? Does God teach you things that He doesn't teach anyone else?
Immortal is the glorified complete image of God. Only those in Christ, the church are glorified. They can no longer biological reproduce. All the church can do is wait until the New Jerusalem brings them back in the NHNE.

Yes it bothers me when humans follow the teaching of an apostate church from the 3rd and 4th century.

The Gospels were Jesus teaching the Jews of His day prior to the Cross. I think that humans have conflated this teaching and applied it too much to the church.

It has nothing to do with covenants, any more than Jesus dealing with humanity directly. The church is not the kingdom, never was, never would be. The church is the Garden of Eden, Paradise, the temple of God.

The kingdom is earthly for those who will have incorruptible bodies. Paul gave us two aspects of the restoration of fallen human nature. Incorruption and immortality for two explicit reasons. The soul cannot die. The soul dies bodily and spiritually. That is why they are referenced as souls. Souls is the "who we are". We are not a body, nor a spiritual covering. We are a soul. There is no third death of the soul. The first death is the body. The second death is the spirit.

Jesus says that which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is Spirit. Adam's incorruptible flesh died when he ate. He was given a corruptible body. His spirit was taken from Him and placed in God's presence, that was spiritual death. The soul died, lost both the body and the Spirit of God.

At conception, a human from Adam biologically has to be birthed. Born of flesh. The soul starts with a corruptible body. It has to be born next of the Spirit. We are given the seal of the Holy Spirit because we cannot control or do any thing with our own spirit. When you realize your spirit is in God's presence, you can realize that a soul that sins, has a spirit that can no long stand to be in God's presence. The point of God knowing our spirit takes on greater importance. A demon is no longer known by God in the same sense as a healthy spirit. Demons do know God and fear God. But they are lost for eternity. The GWT is the reunion of the demon and then the second death is realized by both the soul and spirit, dead to God.

No I did not come up with this idea. It is not a private interpretation like recap theory of Revelations. Knowledge about demons has been around since Noah, if not before. Reincarnation is a convoluted teaching originating from demonology. That a soul or spirit has to keep attempting to "get it right" over and over again in a physical body is the heretical version of what spirits are. Demons are in you. Your spirit wraps around you like John pointed out, a robe of white. The breath in you is air, not some spirit device, but one's lungs.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,316
568
56
Mount Morris
✟124,857.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
You are talking about a reversal of the curse, which means there would be no mortals left alive on the planet.

See the words of Jesus in Matthew 25:31-46, and remove the knowledge of mortals left alive on the planet after the Second Coming.

Why would Jesus need to use a rod of Iron like a schoolmaster during your version of the Millennium, if there is no evil during that time?
Read Revelation 20:4, and see they are resurrected from death.

You get to the point where all mortals die, even the sheep and the wheat. Then it is full stop to you Amils. God still has a plan, and you totally reject God's plan leaning on your own limited understanding. There is a coming Lord's Day and neither Amil nor Satan can do anything about it to change God's plan. It is written clearly in Revelation 20. Your private interpretation of recap has blinded your eyes to the plan of God.

God's plan is to remove the curse, you are correct. God kills all mortals, you are correct. That is all God does, you are no longer correct, but moved into your own private interpretation.
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Read Revelation 20:4, and see they are resurrected from death.

You get to the point where all mortals die, even the sheep and the wheat. Then it is full stop to you Amils. God still has a plan, and you totally reject God's plan leaning on your own limited understanding. There is a coming Lord's Day and neither Amil nor Satan can do anything about it to change God's plan. It is written clearly in Revelation 20. Your private interpretation of recap has blinded your eyes to the plan of God.

God's plan is to remove the curse, you are correct. God kills all mortals, you are correct. That is all God does, you are no longer correct, but moved into your own private interpretation.



How much scripture has to be ignored to make your statements above work?


.
 
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
7,394
2,496
MI
✟308,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The imperishable = the new heavens and the new earth after the last enemy - death - has been defeated; after death and hades have delivered up the dead still in them; after the GWT.

If the thousand years has mortals living during that time, it's different to the time we are living in now in the following ways: Satan will be (really, truly) bound and shut in the abyss; the satanic spirit will be causing absolutely no hindrance to the Kingdom of Christ and the spread of the gospel; and those who had died in Christ before the thousand years will have been resurrected, ruling over the nations under Christ, and the second death will have no power over them.
I don't mean any offense by this, but you are sometimes hard to follow. If there are mortal believers in the millennial kingdom (do you believe that will be the case or not?) then wouldn't that contradict 1 Corinthians 15:50? Yes or no, please.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: BABerean2
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
7,394
2,496
MI
✟308,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It's you who's ignoring the first part of the verse - the word shepherd. He will dash the nations who seek to rebel, and He will shepherd those who are obedient:

Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken (G4917 συνθλάω synthláō): but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind (G3039 λικμάω likmós) him to powder.

G4917
συνθλάω SUNQLA/W synthláō soon-thlah'-o
from G4862 and thlao (to crush); to dash together, i.e. shatter:--break.

G3039
λικμάω LIKMA/W likmáō lik-mah'-o
from λικμός LIKMO/S likmós, the equivalent of λίκνον LI/KNON líknon (a winnowing fan or basket); to winnow, i.e. (by analogy), to triturate:--grind to powder.

Mat 2:27 And he will rule (ποιμαίνω poimaínō shepherd) them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of a potter they will be broken (συντρίβω syntríbō crushed) to pieces, even as I received from My Father.

Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken (G4917 συνθλάω synthláō): but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind (G3039 λικμάω likmós) him to powder.

You're just dancing around with the meaning of the word ποιμαίνω poimaínō shepherd in the verses in order to fit them in with a symbolic thousand years.
You are somehow missing (dancing around the fact?) that Psalm 2:9 is a prophecy and Revelation 19:15 is the fulfillment of it. Psalm 2:9 says He would break (destroy) them with a rod of iron, so that is how we should understand what "ruling" with a rod of iron means.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
78
Home in Tulsa
✟101,763.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Read Revelation 20:4, and see they are resurrected from death.

You get to the point where all mortals die, even the sheep and the wheat. Then it is full stop to you Amils. God still has a plan, and you totally reject God's plan leaning on your own limited understanding. There is a coming Lord's Day and neither Amil nor Satan can do anything about it to change God's plan. It is written clearly in Revelation 20. Your private interpretation of recap has blinded your eyes to the plan of God.

God's plan is to remove the curse, you are correct. God kills all mortals, you are correct. That is all God does, you are no longer correct, but moved into your own private interpretation.
Except there is only ONE USE of "the Lord's day" in the bible and it is NOT in Rev. 20. Are you calling the "Day of the Lord" by an unscriptural name?
 
Upvote 0

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,972
913
Africa
Visit site
✟183,148.00
Country
South Africa
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I don't mean any offense by this, but you are sometimes hard to follow. If there are mortal believers in the millennial kingdom (do you believe that will be the case or not?) then wouldn't that contradict 1 Corinthians 15:50? Yes or no, please.
My answer follows the reason for the answer (which I hope you will read because some Amills here just don't read answers to their questions, and then ask the same questions again, later - so I hope you are not one of them)

It's because your theology causes you to see things differently that you find me difficult to follow.

1. The Kingdom of Christ began immediately after Christ rose from the dead. Why are you looking for a future Kingdom of Christ when it's already here?

2. Paul is still talking about the resurrection of the body in 1 Corinthians 15:50, after having just said that the body is sown in corruption and raised in glory, sown a natural body and raised a spiritual body.

3. The Kingdom is already your inheritance, because you are in Christ, who is the first-fruits of the resurrection - yet you are still flesh and blood (for now).

4. The New Heavens and the New Earth only comes after the thousand years (whether or not you believe the thousand years is literal or symbolic).

5. The fullness of the Kingdom of Christ/Kingdom of God will only come after the millennium (whether or not you believe the millennium is literal). So the Kingdom of God draws near in "time" and there are stages of the coming of the Kingdom of God/Christ.

I'm basing the next two points on the word IF:

6. If the thousand years is literal, it's as much the Kingdom of Christ as it has been since He rose from the dead - but it's as little the new heavens and new earth, as it is now.

However, there are major differences - Satan is (truly, actually) totally incapacitated and the satanic spirit bound. The first resurrection (Greek: synegeiro - with Christ's resurrection) has taken place at Christ's perousia, and the second death has no power over those who are resurrected at Christ's paurousia. The resurrection of the rest of the dead takes place at the close of the millennium when death and hades deliver up all the souls still in them for the GWT.

7. IF Revelation 20's thousand years is literal, then the next stage of the coming of the Kingdom of Christ in "time" is the stage mentioned in Revelation 20.

The fact remains, Paul was talking about the resurrection of the body when he said flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Christ - this is why the next stage in your redemption is the resurrection of your body.

So NO, it does not contradict Paul in 1 Cor 15:50
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: iamlamad
Upvote 0

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,972
913
Africa
Visit site
✟183,148.00
Country
South Africa
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You are somehow missing (dancing around the fact?) that Psalm 2:9 is a prophecy and Revelation 19:15 is the fulfillment of it. Psalm 2:9 says He would break (destroy) them with a rod of iron, so that is how we should understand what "ruling" with a rod of iron means.
Now is the judgment of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself. John 12:31-32

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who wants to argue with the New Testament's authors' choice of words, can go argue with the people who first penned the Greek New Testament if they don't like the choice of words - but don't tell me what the Bible "should" say. The Revelation speaks of Christ shepherding the nations with a rod of iron, and no matter how much anyone argues against the choice of Greek words which the authors used, no one can change its meaning.

Personally, I don't see how Christ will rule/shepherd all nations with a rod of iron before He has shattered the rebellion of the nations with a rod of iron - and Psalm 2 is a prophecy about Christ shattering the rebellion of the nations with a rod of iron.

Paul says that Christ will put an end to all rule, authority and power at the time of the end, and hand the Kingdom back to God the Father - so no ruling with a rod of iron after that.

Nevertheless, it's up to the individual to decide whether or not Christ has already shattered, and whether or not He already rules or shepherds all nations with a rod of iron.

Again, I never chose to use the Greek word in the Revelation which translates into English as shepherd, so I find it annoying that someone will expect me to join with him in an argument about what Greek word "should be" used in the Revelation, or any part of the N.T.

In any case, I don't have the same issue you seem to have with the choice of the word shepherd in the Revelation's statements regarding Christ shepherding the nations with a rod of iron.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
78
Home in Tulsa
✟101,763.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
You are talking about a reversal of the curse, which means there would be no mortals left alive on the planet.

See the words of Jesus in Matthew 25:31-46, and remove the knowledge of mortals left alive on the planet after the Second Coming.

Why would Jesus need to use a rod of Iron like a schoolmaster during your version of the Millennium, if there is no evil during that time?
.
Why would a reversal or removal of the curse mean "no mortals?" Can you find that in scripture?

Your scripture in Matthew does not say no mortals, or even hint of it.

Who ever said there would be "no evil?" There will be natural people with spirits separated from God, but RULED by God. That explains why, when Satan is loosed again, after being bound for a thousand years, that he convinces many to rebel.
You have strange ideas.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

claninja

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2017
5,647
2,189
indiana
✟298,336.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
cleardot.gif

Even though what you say is true in your post, based on the scriptures you give, in my mind, and to my way of thinking, it does not prove Amil -

I would agree that it does not prove the traditional Amil position.

Although, to be clear, I don't hold to the traditional Amil position, that the 1,000 years is symbolic is the time between the 1st and 2nd advent.

and the reasons why I say this remain the reasons I gave in my OP in this thread: I do not believe Satan has been bound or "bound in a manner" or "restricted" in the way Amils believe he is (any more than he always was restricted by God between the time of the fall of Adam and the time of Christ).

1.) I definitely believe Satan was bound at Christ's 1st advent, otherwise, Jesus would not have been casting out demons.

Matthew 12:22-29 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and steal his possessions, unless he first binds the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.

2.) Jesus destroyed the works of the devil at his 1st advent. I relate this to the binding

Hebrews 2:14-15 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery

1 John 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil

3.) Through Christ, the righteous standards of God are met in us. I relate this to the binding.

Romans 8:3-4 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin.c He thus condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

4) And because of Christ's death, resurrection, and ascension to the Father, Satan, the accuser, was cast out. I relate this to the binding.

John 12:31-32 Now judgment is upon this world; now the prince of this world will be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself.” He said this to indicate the kind of death He was going to die.


5.) Therefore, Satan can no longer accuse us because the righteous requirements of God are now met in us through Christ. I relate this to the binding.

Romans 8:33-34 Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is there to condemn us? For Christ Jesus, who died, and more than that was raised to life, is at the right hand of God—and He is interceding for us.

Revelation 12:10 For the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down—he who accuses them day and night before our God. They have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony. And they did not love their lives so as to shy away from death.

HOWEVER, the NT is also clear that after being cast out at Christ's ascension, Satan was prowling, persecuting, deceiving, and hindering the Church through his servants.

John 14:30 I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming, and he has no claim on Me

Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience.

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

1 thessalonians 2:16-18 by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved—so as always to fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them at last!
But since we were torn away from you, brothers, for a short time, in person not in heart, we endeavored the more eagerly and with great desire to see you face to face, because we wanted to come to you—I, Paul, again and again—but Satan hindered us.

Revelation 2:13 “‘I know where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. Yet you hold fast my name, and you did not deny my faith even in the days of Antipas my faithful witness, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.

1 John 2:18-19 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us

1 peter 5:8 Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour



Neither do I believe that the Greek word χιλιάς chiliás leaves any room for a symbolic interpretation of the thousand years.

I believe the 1,000 years was used in the parable, given to John in Revelation 20, to represent the fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant, for it was 1,000 years between the time of David, the type/shadow, and Christ, the anti type/reality. According to Peter, it is through the Resurrection that that God fulfilled the promise to David that his descendant would sit on the Throne.

Acts 2:30-31 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that He would place one of his descendants on his throne. Foreseeing this, David spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that He was not abandoned to Hades, nor did His body see decay.

IMHO, the millennium is not a time span between 2 points, but parabolically points to the fulfillment of Davidic Covenant through Christ's ministry, death, FIRST resurrection, ascension, and casting out/binding of satan. Those that partake in this FIRST resurrection, overcome the accuser and the world, are no longer hurt by the 2nd death, and are a kingdom of priests to God. This is found fulfilled in the gospel and epistolic narrative for those who are in Christ. Therefore, I interpret this parable in revelation through the lens of the Gospels and Epistles, and not the other way around.

It is when 1,000 years are fulfilled that satan is released to deceive the nations.


Revelation 20:7 When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison

According to the Gospel and Epistolic narrative, it is at the fulfillment of Christ's death, resurrection, and ascension that Satan is cast out to persecute, prowl, deceive, and hinder the Church, whose hope was that satan was to be soon crushed under their feet.


John 12:31-32 Now judgment is upon this world; now the prince of this world will be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself.” He said this to indicate the kind of death He was going to die.

John 14:30 I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming, and he has no claim on Me

Romans 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.


Neither do I see any reason whatsoever, when reading the text in the Revelation, to believe that Revelation 20 does not follow chronologically in time after Revelation 19:11-21.

In post 983, you stated the 2nd death only takes place after satan's destruction :

"Take note that the second death only takes place after the destruction of Satan in the lake of fire"

Revelation is a symbolic book and it tells us that the lake of fire IS the 2nd death.


Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Therefore, if Revelation 20 Chronologically comes after Revelation 19:11-21, then the 2nd death does not only occur at the after the destruction of Satan, as you stated, but also occurs prior to the destruction of satan, at the destruction of the beast and false prophet.

However, Amils typically agree with your statement in post 983, and view the destruction of the beast and false prophet in revelation 19 as parallel to that of the satan in revelation 20
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.