Childofgodharrison

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You're quoting the Johanneum comma which did not exist in any Greek manuscripts prior to the 14th century. In other words, it was added in and should not be there.
Qkay Genesis 1:3 says it all.
gen. 1:3, 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. God said (The Father) Let there be light ( The Word) and there was light ( The Holy Spirit)
God is the head, Jesus is the word that he speak, and the Holy Spirit does the work. They are one. John 1:14, And the word was made flesh
 
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St_Worm2

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Hmmmm... Why than, I'm wondering, there is nothing about Trinity in that Statement of Faith?
Hello Nux, first off, I see that you are brand new around here, so WELCOME TO CF :wave:

As for your question about the Nicene Creed, the Creed, just like the Bible, doesn't use the word "Trinity". The "Trinity" is a doctrine that the church created to both circumscribe and safeguard the mystery of the Godhead that is described to us throughout the Bible.

The Nicene Creed describes the Trinity, tells us about the Godhead, and it tells us about the 3 Members of the Godhead individually. It is, in point of fact, all about the Trinity/Trinitarian nature of God and the Deity of Christ.

God bless you!

--David
 
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St_Worm2

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Although I can see how you could use this statement to support trinitarian doctrine, can you also see how this statement does not in itself prove it?
Hello Freedm, the Lord Jesus commanded us to baptize in the name of God, and His ~singular~ "name" (in this case) is, "the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit".

God bless you!

--David
p.s. - I agree that this verse alone does not do an adequate job of fully describing the Godhead to us. Since this is the case, the church formulated the doctrine of the Trinity as a means of doing just that, of summarizing and safeguarding all that the Bible has to say about this particular and all-important "mystery".
 
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Freedm

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Qkay Genesis 1:3 says it all.
gen. 1:3, 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. God said (The Father) Let there be light ( The Word) and there was light ( The Holy Spirit)
God is the head, Jesus is the word that he speak, and the Holy Spirit does the work. They are one. John 1:14, And the word was made flesh
Sure, you could form an entire doctrine around such a verse if you try hard enough, just as you could claim the earth is flat based on Isaiah 40:22 alone, but really you've got supporting evidence at best and what good is that without the solid foundation of proof to sit it on?

The reality is without the Johanneum comma, trinitarian doctrine simply does not exist. Why do you think it's in there?
 
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Freedm

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Hello Freedm, the Lord Jesus commanded us to baptize in the name of God, and His ~singular~ "name" (in this case) is, "the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit".

God bless you!

--David
p.s. - I agree that this verse alone does not do an adequate job of fully describing the Godhead to us. Since this is the case, the church formulated the doctrine of the Trinity as a means of doing that, of summarizing and safeguarding all that the Bible has to say about this particular and all-important "mystery".
Please explain to me how believing in something we can't explain or comprehend could possibly be important. I mean, if we can't understand it, how can it benefit us?
 
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Childofgodharrison

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Sure, you could form an entire doctrine around such a verse if you try hard enough, just as you could claim the earth is flat based on Isaiah 40:22 alone, but really you've got supporting evidence at best and what good is that without the solid foundation of proof to sit it on?

The reality is without the Johanneum comma, trinitarian doctrine simply does not exist. Why do you think it's in there?
It's confirmed all through the time that Jesus was on the earth. John 1-3: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
God is the mind, Jesus is his word or his voice and the Holy Spirit is his hands. He is one God. Just as humans have a mind, they speak with their voice, and do work with their hands. It all work together to make one person. In John 1 God's word was spoken into the womb of virgin Mary and became flesh. That is why he continually said: John 12:49, For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. Because God is the mind, and Jesus is his word.
 
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Athanasius377

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You're quoting the Johanneum comma which did not exist in any Greek manuscripts prior to the 14th century. In other words, it was added in and should not be there.
The reality is without the Johanneum comma, trinitarian doctrine simply does not exist. Why do you think it's in there?

So how did the early church councils of the fourth century codify trinitarian doctrine if this doctrine depends on a text that would not appear for another thousand years?
 
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St_Worm2

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Please explain to me how believing in something we can't explain or comprehend could possibly be important. I mean, if we can't understand it, how can it benefit us?
Hello Freedm, well, let's start here as a for instance.

Genesis 1
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Deuteronomy 6
4 Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!

Isaiah 43
10 “You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
In order that you may know and believe Me
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
And there will be none after Me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD,
And there is no Savior besides Me.


~vs~
Genesis 1
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.


John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.

14 And the Word became flesh, and welt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

1 Timothy 1
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Savior, and of Christ Jesus, who is our hope,
2 To Timothy, my true child in the faith: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Titus 1
4 To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

Revelation 22
12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
13 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”
17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.

The Lord tells us all that we need to know to find Him, to know Him, to love, honor, glorify, believe & obey Him .. Deuteronomy 29:29. Certain information is simply beyond us, like the Biblical mystery of the Godhead, for instance, but we hold it to be true because the Bible tells us that it is. In this case, God told us what we are capable of comprehending about His nature, and as you can see from the examples above, it's a very good thing that He did, yes :oldthumbsup:

There is much more, of course, but I'll stop here for now.

God bless you!

--David
 
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Childofgodharrison

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Hello Freedm, well, let's start here as a for instance.

Genesis 1
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Deuteronomy 6
4 Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!

Isaiah 43
10 “You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
In order that you may know and believe Me
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
And there will be none after Me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD,
And there is no Savior besides Me.


~vs~
Genesis 1
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.


John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.

14 And the Word became flesh, and welt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

1 Timothy 1
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Savior, and of Christ Jesus, who is our hope,
2 To Timothy, my true child in the faith: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Titus 1
4 To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

Revelation 22
12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
13 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”
17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.

The Lord tells us all that we need to know to find Him, to know Him, to love, honor, glorify, believe & obey Him .. Deuteronomy 29:29. Certain information is simply beyond us, like the Biblical mystery of the Godhead, for instance, but we hold it to be true because the Bible tells us that it is. In this case, God told us what we are capable of comprehending about His nature, and as you can see from the examples above, it's a very good thing that He did, yes :oldthumbsup:

There is much more, of course, but I'll stop here for now.

God bless you!

--David
The short answer is: We are in his image. He gave us a human spirit to communicate with him. He gave us a mind, just as with him(God is the mind), Then he gave us a voice to speak, as with him ( he has a voice to speak, his word which is Jesus) Then he gave us hands to do the work, as with him (his holy spirit does the work, which are his hands)
 
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Freedm

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The Lord tells us all that we need to know to find Him, to know Him, to love, honor, glorify, believe & obey Him .. Deuteronomy 29:29. Certain information is simply beyond us, like the Biblical mystery of the Godhead, for instance, but we hold it to be true because the Bible tells us that it is. In this case, God told us what we are capable of comprehending about His nature, and as you can see from the examples above, it's a very good thing that He did, yes :oldthumbsup:

To say God wants us to know him, but also that the "mystery of the Godhead" is beyond our understanding, is literally a contradiction, so I don't buy that.

I agree that God wants us to know him, and I believe that we can understand him and his relationship to Jesus.
 
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Freedm

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So how did the early church councils of the fourth century codify trinitarian doctrine if this doctrine depends on a text that would not appear for another thousand years?
Please don't ask me to go back in time and confirm the thought processes of those who lived in those days. I can't do that, but I can confirm that reputable sources tell us the Johanneum comma did not exist in any Greek manuscripts until the 14th century.

My guess is, it was added in to satisfy a dogma that had been circulating for quite some time, which makes it no more reliable than you or I writing our own translation of the Bible today and adding in a little titbit here and there that we believe to be true.
 
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Athanasius377

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Please don't ask me to go back in time and confirm the thought processes of those who lived in those days. I can't do that, but I can confirm that reputable sources tell us the Johanneum comma did not exist in any Greek manuscripts until the 14th century.

My guess is, it was added in to satisfy a dogma that had been circulating for quite some time, which makes it no more reliable than you or I writing our own translation of the Bible today and adding in a little titbit here and there that we believe to be true.
I agree the comma Johanneum was a later addition. If it wasn’t a later addition one would expect it to utilized in the writings of the ECF and the early councils. The comma is a later addition in margin of a late manuscript. No reputable scholar I know argues otherwise. But that’s not my problem with your posts. Rather it’s the assertion that the doctrine of the Trinity depends solely on the comma Johanneum. Clearly that is not true. Because the Church was Trinitarian long before the appearance of the comma and afterwards of its acknowledgment of its clear addition.
 
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Freedm

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I agree the comma Johanneum was a later addition. If it wasn’t a later addition one would expect it to utilized in the writings of the ECF and the early councils. The comma is a later addition in margin of a late manuscript. No reputable scholar I know argues otherwise. But that’s not my problem with your posts. Rather it’s the assertion that the doctrine of the Trinity depends solely on the comma Johanneum. Clearly that is not true. Because the Church was Trinitarian long before the appearance of the comma and afterwards of its acknowledgment of its clear addition.
Without the comma, the doctrine is nebulous and difficult to convey. It really serves to unify the various understandings of the relationship between God the father and Jesus the son (assuming the reader equates "the word" with "the son"). This is why I believe it's dangerous. It essentially shuts the door to other potential explanations for the rest of scripture.

Certainly the same doctrine can be extracted from the scriptures regardless, again assuming that "the word" refers to Jesus Christ the man, but other slight variations can as well, as long as the comma is excluded.
 
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creslaw

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I am somewhat amused by attempts by laypeople to explain the Trinity to me - they either lean towards the analogy of one man who is a father, a son & a husband (which is modalism) or lean towards the analogy of one family comprising father, mother & son (polytheism) ... both of which are heresies in the eyes of the mainstream churches.
 
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Nux

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Yes. It is not something mentioned in scripture but the Trinity is a solution to a scriptural paradox that comes from 1) passages that say "God is One" according to a number of scriptures starting with the Pentateuch, but 2) God in the NT is referred to numerous times as the "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" (3 persons).

I actually consider the Trinity to be a "harmonization of scripture" which is where you reconcile to or more different passages that seem to be in conflict, so all of them can be true at the same time. And the process of "harmonization of scripture" itself goes back to the time of the Old Testament, to the time of the days of King Josiah actually.

But there are a lot of people, most of the current christians actually, who pray to that "concept" or "harmonization" (or however else do you prefer to call it). It seems like idolatry to pray to the product of human's mind and not to Jahweh or Jesus, isn't it?
 
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Nux

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Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19
So where is Trinity here? I can clearly see three: Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, everything above this is just a matter of interpretation, isn't it? And so is everytime when teaching is not based on the word of God. Please, read the gospel of John carefully and you'll see that there is no one except Father, Son and the Holy Spirit there.
 
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Nux

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It is one proposed solution, but despite it's wide adoption, it's not the only solution.
There is no "paradox" actually. There is Jahweh the father - the only true God, Jesus his son who is like God by his nature and the third - the Holy Spirit. Truth expressed by Jesus in gospel is clear and simple but only few accept it.
 
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Nux

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You're quoting the Johanneum comma which did not exist in any Greek manuscripts prior to the 14th century. In other words, it was added in and should not be there.
There is another passage from John's writings which in my opinion says the same: John 10:30 "I and the father are one". Both John 10:30 and 1 John 5:7-8 use the same Greek word for 'one', this can be checked at esv.org. But it's obvious that the context of John 10:30 is Jesus' words of his and his father's unity of purpose not that of persons. So Johanneum comma whether it is the truth words of John or was added later profits nothing to the Trinity doctrine. Truth stays the same: that doctrine isn't based nor on OT nor on Jesus' teaching and is no more than just widely spread misconception.
 
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coffee4u

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There is no "paradox" actually. There is Jahweh the father - the only true God, Jesus his son who is like God by his nature and the third - the Holy Spirit. Truth expressed by Jesus in gospel is clear and simple but only few accept it.

Jesus not 'like God' he is God.
John 10:30

30 I and My Father are one.”

Philippians 2:5-6
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,

Colossians 2:9-10
9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;

John 10:33
33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Holy Spirit is also God

Acts 5:3-5
3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

2 Corinthians 3:17-18

17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as a]">[a]by the Spirit of the Lord.

Yet God is one.
Isaiah 44:6


6 “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Jesus not 'like God' he is God.

Yes because that would be Arianism or Monarchanianism/Sabellianism both of which got their own problems...


and by the way belief in the Trinity is on the terms of service somewhere on the board for you detractors... (later/edit) actually just found it.


Religious Beliefs

Christian Faith:

The first group is for Christian faith groups that accept the Nicene Creed as defined in CF's Statement of Faith.

Other Religions & Faiths:
This second group is for members who are followers of a non-Christian religion or faith. If your faith group is not listed, please open a support ticket to request the addition of your faith group to the list.

Distinction between Christianity and Other Religions & Faiths:
Faith groups that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation whereby He, as God, took on human flesh (relinquishing none of His Godhood, Incarnated as fully man in one person), are considered non-Christians at CF. Faith groups that do not believe in the deity of Christ, nor in the triune nature of God, may not post in Christian Only forums.


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