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Sure, they've nipped around the edges for show.... but they have never done ANYTHING to substantively reduce or eliminate legal, on demand abortion in this country, when they ABSOLUTELY could have.

As was posted earlier, this is a cold, hard fact.

In deciding Roe v. Wade in January 1973, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that restrictive state abortion laws were unconstitutional. Roe v Wade establishes the principle that a person, not the government, has the right to choose their own medical care.
 
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pescador

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<snip>

The Catholic Church was highlighted by the media, who hates the Catholic Church and Christianity itself.

Oh NOW I see... the media (plural) hate the Catholic Church and Christianity itself. That is beyond absurd. a) The media encompasses a vast variety of news sources and b) there is ample evidence that most of the media support Christian ideals (which may be very different than Catholic dogma).
 
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Albion

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They Can't.
Republicans REQUIRE abortion to remain legal, for once it is outlawed, they would never win another election.
So now we've moved from a claim that Republicans didn't do something...into a guess about why they didn't do what they actually did do. :rolleyes:
 
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Albion

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The percentage has to do with facts, not emotional accusations.
So, once again, just tell us. How many criminal actions are considered within acceptable limits?

But let me help, according to Dr Philip Jenkins, a professor at Pennsylvania U, not a Catholic who did the studies over the past 25 years; w
Out of the population of priest, 4% have been charged with sexual abuse. Most of those are with homosexual priest with teenage boys or homosexual adults
Is that supposed to be some sort of exoneration?

Most of these molestations occurred some time ago and your source studied the matter over a period of 25 years, you said. The boys who were molested are now adults and some fairly well up in years.

The number of Catholic priests in the USA in 1985 was about 57,000 and had declined to about 50,000 by the mid-1990s. So using that as a rough estimate, your 4% figure of priests who have been formally charged with sexual abuse (apparently not including Bernard Cardinal Law who was promoted to the staff of the Pope in Rome in order to keep him from prosecution in the USA) would be more than 2000. And the dioceses and religious orders which do their own research reported, in 2019, the names of more than 5,100 clergy members they considered credibly accused.

Is that anything to be concerned about?
 
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parousia70

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So, once again, just tell us. How many criminal actions are considered within acceptable limits?
Is that supposed to be some sort of exoneration?

Most of these molestations occurred some time ago and your source studied the matter over a period of 25 years, you said. The boys who were molested are now adults and some fairly well up in years.

The number of Catholic priests in the USA in 1985 was about 57,000 and had declined to about 50,000 by the mid-1990s. So using that as a rough estimate, your 4% figure of priests who have been formally charged with sexual abuse (apparently not including Bernard Cardinal Law who was promoted to the staff of the Pope in Rome in order to keep him from prosecution in the USA) would be more than 2000. And the dioceses and religious orders which do their own research reported, in 2019, the names of more than 5,100 clergy members they considered credibly accused.

Is that anything to be concerned about?

Absolutely concerning.
Buy I can't help but wonder What percentage of Anglican Clergy Sexual Abuse that you consider to be an "acceptable limit"?
Maybe As Long as it's lower than Catholic or Protestant percentages then it's nothing to be concerned about?
Anglican Communion sexual abuse cases - Wikipedia
This article says it 1/10 that of Catholic cases..

Unless you can point me to your previous posts specifically stating that 510 Anglican clergy having sexually abused the innocent, along with subsequent church coverups, is not acceptable to you, then I can only conclude that 510 criminal actions by Anglican Clergy (1/10 of 5100) is apparently the "acceptable Limit" for you, and nothing to be concerned about.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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Oh NOW I see... the media (plural) hate the Catholic Church and Christianity itself. That is beyond absurd. a) The media encompasses a vast variety of news sources and b) there is ample evidence that most of the media support Christian ideals (which may be very different than Catholic dogma).

Right and it's why the MSM misquotes the Pope and the Church all the time ?

Heck, they just misquoted what Pope Francis said about civil unions.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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Albion,

So, once again, just tell us. How many criminal actions are considered within acceptable limits?

None are acceptable, but they do happen. Your loaded question begs whether your open minded or just an anti-Catholic bigot.


Most of these molestations occurred some time ago and your source studied the matter over a period of 25 years, you said. The boys who were molested are now adults and some fairly well up in years.

Dr Jenkins began the study about 25 years ago, but this included those of the past and present.

The number of Catholic priests in the USA in 1985 was about 57,000 and had declined to about 50,000 by the mid-1990s. So using that as a rough estimate, your 4% figure of priests who have been formally charged with sexual abuse (apparently not including Bernard Cardinal Law who was promoted to the staff of the Pope in Rome in order to keep him from prosecution in the USA) would be more than 2000. And the dioceses and religious orders which do their own research reported, in 2019, the names of more than 5,100 clergy members they considered credibly accused.

Credibly accused doesn't mean guilty. There are those where so-called credibly accused but found innocent. Cardinal Bernadine was one. He was accused and it was considered credible. He was found innocent by a court of law.

The point is, the vast majority of priests are good and have not abused anyone. You seem to think the opposite is the norm.

You say Cardinal Law was promoted, which reveals your ignorance about the Catholic Church. When he was put in charge of a shrine in Rome, St Mary Major, and it was a demotion as that job usually goes to a Monsignor not a Cardinal. He was Archbishop of the Boston Archdioceses and now was in charge of a shrine where his boss the Pope could keep an eye on him. It was akin to a manager being demoted to a clerk's job in a corporation and having a desk outside the CEO's office.



 
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WonbyOneanddone

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Tulc, I am kind of torn between wanting abortion to just go away in order for pro-life voters to stop holding every single social justice initiative--almost all of which are very "pro-life"--hostage while they resolutely continue single issue voting for people whose support of "life" only extends to the pre-born.

But as they started experiencing success, drunk with power, they decided to go after birth control, too. It started by their redefining the pill and the IUD as 'abortifacient.' Then they launched all of these lawsuits to destroy the Affordable Care Act. I met one of the plaintiff auditors once, and he spoke, oh so proudly, about how the plaintiff group looked into the background of every district court in the country and picked the one where they had the best chance of winning and found an order of nuns willing to act as lead plaintiffs.

I used to think Roe v. Wade could be overturned, and the pro-lifers would come up to me and say, "Thank God! It bothered my conscience so much to be voting for lawmakers who didn't care about the poor, the immigrants, the disabled, the elderly, and people of color. It bothered me to see how our profligate use of fossil fuels were causing hurricanes and floods and forest fires, even affecting some people we know and love. It bothered me to support a president whose character and integrity was so lacking." I could rest, happy that my fellow Christians were on the same page as me.

But no! It all became about birth control and guns, and in my heart of hearts I began to believe that it was really about undermining women's rights. And I realized, sadly, that overturning Roe wouldn't mean that most of them would start looking around and seeing everything that needed to be done in America that they had deprioritized for so long. I still hope a few might.

Roe v. Wade should defuse the militant pro-lifers. Instead, it will empower them to find new battles on the periphery. Sigh.
So you want abortion to go away only to stop votes from going to the GOP?

What a heart for the unborn you have.

Well guess what, the DNC declared a jihad on pro-life long ago and have sworn a fight to the death ever since.

So be it!
 
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WonbyOneanddone

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There is no doubt that the Court can modify Roe v. Wade significantly. That's more likely than a flat reversal.
Roe vs. Wade was a horrible decision.

Essentially, the argument was based upon a woman's privacy.

They made no effort to evaluate the personhood of the unborn, seemingly not caring one way or the other.
 
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WonbyOneanddone

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You don't know what you're talking about

Pope Pius XII saved 250,000 Jews during WWII, hiding them in the Vatican and elsewhere.

Golda Myer, PM of Israel, thanked Pope Pius XII for his actions and the Israeli Congress made a donation to the Church in thanks for helping Jews during the Holocausts.

You are also using mainstream media for your info on sex abuse by priests, which has been flawed since day one.

Bring your anti-Catholic rhetoric some where's else, This is a Christian forum.
Try reading my posts one more time.

The Catholic church FAILED to publicly chastise and condemn the Nazi regime for the Holocaust. (But they will tell Trump he is going to hell for building a wall)

That is a fact.

Had they done so, it would have created a PR headache for the Third Reich. They fell short of the mark as they are doing with abortion, or are you happy with the way in which they are silent about abortions as well?

As for the sex abuse scandals, I don't see how anyone in their right mind can not see the inability and/or unwillingness over the years to purge sex abuse scandals from the church they way they ought to have been.

Such factual and truthful critiques are not hate speech.

Let me guess, you will vote Biden and don't really care much about the abortion issue like Catholic Joe and Pelosi.
 
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WonbyOneanddone

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I don't think so. Without abortion, how the Republicans attract anyone other than the 1%? What are the advantages? Trump is trying to destroy Social Security by eliminating the payroll tax. The government is suing to end the Affordable Care Act. Trump has said that Americans get paid too much. I guess that's why he hires so many foreigners on temporary visas to work in his hotels. What planet does he live on? Poisoning the air and water is not a winning issue.
So what is their campaign strategy? We want to make your life harder, and when your unborn children are born we will make their lives harder too? No thanks
Take a look at the 1%. Look at the blue states, look at the red states.

The blue states are rich states, and the red states are poor states.

Look at the wealth in this country who are for Biden. Bezos, Buffett, Gates, Soros, and pretty much everyone in Hollywood and sports etc.

Look at how tech corporations like Facebook and Twitter, and YouTube are censoring conservative speech.

Look at how Biden has more than twice the revenue to fund his campaign than Trump, just like Hillary.

Anyone can do this, just drive through any rich part of town, don't care where you are really, and see all the Biden signs. Then go out into the country where average folk live and see all the Trump signs.

Try again.

The democrat party has come to represent the extreme rich and the extreme poor who may have a few more crumbs to eat from under the table.

They have become a party of extremists as they wish to add states to the union and rewire the Constitution and laws governing how many justices sit on the court, etc.

They wish to not just win an election, but silence and destroy any political opposition in the foreseeable future.
 
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jgarden

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The rules of this site allow for a YouTube video. Here is the rule: Youtube videos, blogs, and offsite materials written by members may be posted to further conversation and provide relevant topics.

This is not my video, and so I am not just driving traffic to something of mine. Here is a video of a brave Catholic Priest talking about the topic. He says it better than I ever could. If you are Protestant, it is different from what you may be used to and you can skip the 1st part of you must. But hang in there and listen. It is worth it. He talks about mixing politics and religion. He talks about not siding with those that have Godless and sinful policies. The part about the 60 million babies at the gate of heaven... wow. How do Christians justify siding with those that tolerate or support abortion? I don't understand!.

Having watched Europe literally tear itself apart for centuries by endless religious wars, America's Founding Fathers were adamant that the new nation that they envisioned would allow religious freedom and not repeat the same mistake by adopting an official state religion!

Catholics holding high office in America have been viewed with suspicion based on the possibility of divided loyalties - prior to 1940 the total number of RC justices appointed to the Supreme Court could be counted on one hand!

Is it just coincidence that one of the three branches of the federal government is mow dominated by a conservatives majority from just one religious group - 6 of the 9 justices currently on the Supreme Court are RC and the 7th was raised in a Catholic household"

International studies have demonstrated repeatedly that wealthy, elderly males attempting to impose their own moral code, whether it be from state capitals or the Vatican, know little or nothing about the personal circumstances of those millions of young women subject to their decisions!

How ironic that in 2020, Senate Republicans chose not to abide by their own rules of conduct that were established in 2016 - ignoring Obama's chosen candidate Merrick Garland based on the premise that no Supreme Court Justice should be appointed during a Presidential Election year!

Now Senate Republicans are expecting, with a straight face, that Americans will abide by those decisions made by the conservative religious majority in Supreme Court, while conveniently ignoring the fact that at least half the nation has concluded that this majority was obtained by illegitimate means!
 
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JimR-OCDS

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Try reading my posts one more time.

The Catholic church FAILED to publicly chastise and condemn the Nazi regime for the Holocaust. (But they will tell Trump he is going to hell for building a wall)

That is a fact.

Had they done so, it would have created a PR headache for the Third Reich. They fell short of the mark as they are doing with abortion, or are you happy with the way in which they are silent about abortions as well?

As for the sex abuse scandals, I don't see how anyone in their right mind can not see the inability and/or unwillingness over the years to purge sex abuse scandals from the church they way they ought to have been.

Such factual and truthful critiques are not hate speech.

The Church did chastise the Nazi's and Pope Pius XII was assistant to Pope Pius XI who wrote the letter condemning the Nazi's. Pope Pius XI himself publicly condemned the treatment of the Jews, but as I said, the Bishops of Holland told him to be quiet, for they were running an underground hiding route to get Jews out of Europe.

Again, read "The Myth of Hitler's Pope."

Let me guess, you will vote Biden and don't really care much about the abortion issue like Catholic Joe and Pelosi.

Well you guessed wrong and I've already voted, but you've already made up your mind about me anyway, so no sense trying to present myself other than what you think.
 
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Albion

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How ironic that in 2020, Senate Republicans chose not to abide by their own rules of conduct that were established in 2016 - ignoring Obama's chosen candidate Merrick Garland based on the premise that no Supreme Court Justice should be appointed during a Presidential Election year!
That wasn't the issue; and it would be wonderful if the people who side with you would, someday, realize--or admit, if that's the problem--that the two situations were NOT the same.

Therefore, the comparison is only good for talking to other people who already are fervently opposed to anything that President Trump and is Congressional allies might do.

Now Senate Republicans are expecting, with a straight face, that Americans will abide by those decisions made by the conservative religious majority in Supreme Court....
That's probably correct. The Republicans in Congress do favor adherence to the Constitution, which is what was done in the case of the process followed for filling the recent Supreme Court vacancy.
 
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tulc

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That wasn't the issue; and it would be wonderful if the people who side with you would, someday, realize--or admit, if that's the problem--that the two situations were NOT the same.

Therefore, the comparison is only good for talking to other people who already are fervently opposed to anything that President Trump and is Congressional allies might do. (snip)
Of course they weren't the same: the person in the white House had an "R" after his name, anyone would know that makes all the difference in the world!
tulc(knows for Republicans in Congress nothing else matters)
 
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The verbal gymnastics, doublespeak, and skewed priority alignments used by the more liberal-minded church goers to get around a failure to vote for life is rather strange to me. They convince themselves and each other but none else, sometimes with lies even. When your words match those of worldly news anchors and celebrities, it is time for pause and reflection to say the least. They fail to see that they side with the party of kill, steal, and destroy because they are spiritually intoxicated from too much drinking from the poisoned wells of our corrupt news media, free-speech censoring social media, broken education system, and Hollywood.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/10znROjcruHbHDok43-CJYbiEW34UVEWn/view?usp=sharing
 
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tulc

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The verbal gymnastics, doublespeak, and skewed priority alignments used by the more liberal-minded church goers to get around a failure to vote for life is rather strange to me. They convince themselves and each other but none else, sometimes with lies even. When your words match those of worldly news anchors and celebrities, it is time for pause and reflection to say the least. They fail to see that they side with the party of kill, steal, and destroy because they are spiritually intoxicated from too much drinking from the poisoned wells of our corrupt news media, free-speech censoring social media, broken education system, and Hollywood. (snip)
Wow...we sound like terrible people. Or we could just be people who see things differently than you?
tulc(suspects that's more likely) :wave:
 
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tulc

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Terrible people - overstatement.
hmmmm...this part of your post:
They fail to see that they side with the party of kill, steal, and destroy because they are spiritually intoxicated from too much drinking from the poisoned wells of our corrupt news media, free-speech censoring social media, broken education system, and Hollywood (emph. added)
would seem to be saying we're pretty awful, so not an overstatement
while this part
People who see things differently - understatement.
that part actually seems pretty accurate. :wave:
tulc(just thought that should be pointed out)
 
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My best childhood friend is an alcoholic. His drink of choice is vodka. He could not put it down. It ruined his marriage, his family, his job, his health. He is not a terrible person... that would be an overstatement. I love him.
 
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