Are you saved because you believe? Or do you believe because you are saved?

Dave L

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Faith in Christ is not the law. Please address the points I made specifically and show how what I said is wrong instead of making general statements like this. Back up your opinions with scripture.
If you must choose. You reject grace and turn it into law.
 
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eleos1954

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That does not say that faith is a gift. It says that salvation, which is by God's grace through our faith, is the gift of God.

The fact that salvation is offered to all people is made abundantly clear in scripture.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

1 Timothy 2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

1 John 2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Revelation 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.


The reason that some don't accept the gift is not because God hasn't given them the gift of faith, but rather is because they willingly choose not to accept it.

Matthew 22:1 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

Matthew 23:37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.

Hebrews 12:2

Berean Study Bible
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Romans 12:3
For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.
 
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Kenny'sID

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You had asked this ....



The law of sin ... is when one thinks by keeping the law by their own accord ... then the law is sinful .... without Him we can not keep it.

The same law is NOT sinful when we walk by the Spirit and His Spirit helps us to keep the law and overcome our sin. This is the Spirit of the law. HIS work in us.

Philippians 1:6

New Living Translation
And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.

Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.

Romans 7:6
But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

Are you saying we should not consciously keep the law, and just follow the spirit?

If so, I find doing both works best for me. He put the law in our hearts, but if there is ever any confusion, im glad it's in writing as well.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Philippians 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Acts 13:48
Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
I believe you are misinterpreting those verses.

Philippians 1:29 is talking about being given the opportunity to believe in him and suffer for His sake. If you think that this verse is talking about faith being given to someone then you'd also have to believe that their suffering is being given to them as well. Is that what you believe? God makes us suffer on behalf of Christ rather than us doing so willingly? If that's what you think, then show me another verses that says our suffering is a gift of God and that He makes us suffer.

As for Acts 13:48, we have to keep in mind that eternal life is appointed for all who believe. It is the eternal life that was previously appointed, not their faith. Eternal life is appointed for whosoever believes in Christ (John 3:16). They were appointed to eternal life because that is what is appointed to those who believe. You read the verse as if it says "As many as had been appointed to faith then believed and received eternal life".

Think about it. Why would Paul have said this and then turn right around and say that faith is appointed to people rather than being a willful choice:

Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.

In your view, it's impossible for people to consider themselves unworthy of eternal life. It's all up to God to decide that. But Paul indicated that the Jews he was speaking to willfully rejected his preaching rather than it being appointed to them to not believe it.

Which goes along with what these passages say:

Matthew 22:1 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

If being saved didn't have anything to do with making a choice to believe or not then this passage would make no sense. At the end of the parable of which I quoted the first few verses above, Jesus said "Many are called, but few are chosen". How would it make sense to invite people to salvation who have no ability to accept it? It would make no sense whatsoever.

Matthew 23:37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.

This is another passage that teaches something different than how you understand Acts 13:48. In your view it's not possible for Jesus to want people to be saved who end up not being saved. But, this indicates that Jesus wanted the Jews He was talking to to be saved but they "were not willing". This shows He gave them the choice but they willfully chose to reject it. If they were not capable of accepting it, then it makes no sense for Jesus to have been angry at them.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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We can't do anything without Him. Nothing!

John 15
5I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing.

Hebrews 12:2
Berean Study Bible
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Psalm 25:9
He leads the humble in what is right, and teaches the humble his way.

We need to humble ourselves before Him and we begin new life in Him .... learning His ways ... He changes our thinking over the course of our earthly lives. If we remain humble He provides all our spiritual needs.
Those are talking about good works. It's true that we can't produce fruit (good works) without Him. None of these say that we can't choose to humble ourselves before Him. Notice what Psalm 25:9 says. He leads the humble and teaches them. It does not say He makes them humble. That's why scripture teaches that we must humble ourselves before Him in order to be forgiven and accepted by Him.

2 Chronicles 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

Isaiah 66:1 Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? 2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. 3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. 4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

Luke 18:9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ 13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ 14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

James 4:10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.

1 Peter 5:5
Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. 6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
 
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eleos1954

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Are you saying we should not consciously keep the law, and just follow the spirit?

If so, I find doing both works best for me. He put the law in our hearts, but if there is ever any confusion, im glad it's in writing as well.

He works in the heart ... and the heart connects to the mind. When He works in us through His Spirit He changes our mind (thinking) ... we are consciously aware He is changing our thinking and praise Him for doing that!

Yes ... through His word He speaks to us and is the main way He changes our heart and mind.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

What I am saying .... without Him we can not DO anything. Unless He works in us we are totally incapable.

It is about giving Him all the glory ...

1 Peter 4:11
Whoever speaks, as one who speaks oracles of God; whoever serves, as one who serves by the strength that God supplies—in order that in everything God may be glorified through Jesus Christ. To him belong glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

If so, I find doing both works best for me.

Are you able to DO anything without Him? Are you able to consciously change your thinking without Him?
 
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eleos1954

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Those are talking about good works. It's true that we can't produce fruit (good works) without Him. None of these say that we can't choose to humble ourselves before Him. Notice what Psalm 25:9 says. He leads the humble and teaches them. It does not say He makes them humble. That's why scripture teaches that we must humble ourselves before Him in order to be forgiven and accepted by Him.

2 Chronicles 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

Isaiah 66:1 Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? 2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. 3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. 4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

Luke 18:9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ 13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ 14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

James 4:10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.

1 Peter 5:5
Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. 6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:

What is it that causes one to be humble?
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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What is it that causes one to be humble?
recognizing who they really are in the presence of a Holy God. Like Isaiah we cry out I'm a man of unclean lips and I repent in sackcloth and ashes. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. A healthy dose of Gods Holiness is the cure for pride.

Isaiah 6:5
“Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty.”
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Hebrews 12:2

Berean Study Bible
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Romans 12:3
For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.
Is this how you debate? You don't bother taking the time to explain how the passages that I showed support your view? Can you please do so? This is not a game of scripture tag. This is not a war of one set of scripture passages versus another set of scripture passages.

Please respond to what I said in my post instead of just responding with different verses than what I showed. That gives the impression that you have no explanation for the passages I showed and you selectively accept some verses as you understand them while ignoring the rest without bothering to reconcile all of them together so that none contradict each other.

As for Hebrews 12:2, that is not speaking of individual faith, it is speaking of the Christian faith in general. The Greek word translated as "author" there can also mean "Captain" or "Leader". What that verse is saying is that Jesus is the Captain/Leader/Ultimate Authority of the Christian faith.

As for Romans 12:3, that verse has nothing to do with faith in Christ being given to someone who does not yet already believe. Context is very important and Calvinists miss the context of scripture repeatedly.

Let's look at the verse in more depth and in context rather than drawing conclusions from it in isolation.

Romans 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you. 4 For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5 so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith; 7 if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; 8 if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead, do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully.

Notice here that the context of what Paul was talking about was spiritual gifts given to people who already believe rather than one's initial faith in Christ that results in their salvation. If Paul was speaking here about faith in Christ being given to people then why would he say to people who have the gift of prophesying to do so "in accordance with "your faith"? Isn't it God's faith if He's the one who gives people faith in Christ? Why wouldn't it say "in accordance with the faith you were given" instead if it's not speaking of their own faith that they chose to put in Christ?

God gives each person who has put their faith in Christ different spiritual gifts as He sees fit. This passage has nothing whatsoever to do with God giving faith in Christ to people who don't already believe. The measure of faith relates to God giving all believers gifts of the Holy Spirit in varying measure to His people.
 
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eleos1954

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recognizing who they really are in the presence of a Holy God. Like Isaiah we cry out I'm a man of unclean lips and I repent in sackcloth and ashes. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. A healthy dose of Gods Holiness is the cure for pride.

Isaiah 6:5
“Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty.”

What is Gods holiness?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Jesus said; “Those who believe in the Son have eternal life, but those who do not obey the Son will never have life. God’s anger stays on them.” John 3:36 (NCV)

Eternal life is without beginning or end, just as God is eternal. This would mean whom he regenerates with his Spirit was saved eternally in God's mind and plan.

“And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?” John 11:26 (KJV 1900)

So is believing in Christ God's fruit of salvation that tells you he saved you? Or is it a law you must obey in the flesh to earn salvation?

Then John 3:16 should be written whosever has eternal life will believe.

Earn salvation yeah I like that exaggeration. Was Jesus telling His 11 faithful apostles to earn salvation in John 15 when He told them to abide in Him and bear fruit? How does someone fail to abide in Christ? How is that even possible according to your theology? Or better yet how would it be possible for His 11 faithful apostles to fail to abide in Him resulting in being cast away to wither and cast in the fire to be burned?
 
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BNR32FAN

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If you must choose. You reject grace and turn it into law.

Did Jezebel have a choice in Revelation 2:20-21?


“But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:20-21‬ ‭NASB

Why did Jesus give her time to repent or expect her to repent in the first place?
 
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Kenny'sID

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So anyone can keep the law .... with or without Christ?

They had better keep at least the murder part, or else.

The things that are not illegal, sure. Are you saying, for instance, anyone, without Christ, can't refrain from adultry?
 
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Soyeong

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It works like this. A cat does what cats do by nature. A born again Christian does what born again Christians do by nature. It's their nature to believe, hate sin, and love holiness. It is hypocrisy to act like a Christian and pretend to do these things thinking it will save you.
So then you disagree with Titus 2:11-14?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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If faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, how can it not be a gift?
“And the believers from among the circumcised [the Jews] who came with Peter were surprised and amazed, because the free gift of the Holy Spirit had been bestowed and poured out largely even on the Gentiles.” Acts 10:45 (AMP)
For one thing, it's faithfulness or loyalty that is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, not faith in Christ. Like the gifts of the Spirit, the fruit of the Spirit are manifested in a believer after putting one's faith in Christ and receiving the Spirit. You have the order wrong. We don't receive the Holy Spirit before having faith, we have faith before receiving the Holy Spirit.

The following passage shows this:

Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
 
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Spiritual Jew

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If you must choose. You reject grace and turn it into law.
Where does scripture teach this? All you do is throw opinions out there without showing the scripture that you think supports your view. Do you think your arguments are convincing when you just share your opinion without any supporting scripture? Not at all.
 
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