Revelation cannot be a future-timeline because the world keeps ending in it!

BABerean2 said:

Since the beginning of Revelation 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, you are off by at least 1,900 years.


I do not deny it, or ignore it, because it did happen long ago.


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I'm sorry your timing is off, but there is still a very short time left for you to correct that.

Douggg said:

You wrote.... "We saw Revelation 12:1-2 fulfilled back in 2017."

What is your basis for thinking that ?

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Because the Revelation 12:1 sign was literally above us in the heavens on 9/23/17. That's my basis for thinking it. It was literally right above me.

eclipsenow said:

Nice try - that's Mary giving birth to Jesus.
That's the gospel events of 2000 years ago!

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That sign isn't Mary. She gives birth to a child who rules the nations with a rod of iron, which is not Jesus, but Jesus and His Church. Collectively one body caught up into heaven as one. Revelation 12 is the soon rapture.

But you're right - we're 2000 years closer. But whether it's another 2 seconds, 2 thousand years, or 2 million - we just don't know. (As a Theistic Evolutionist I think God took 13 billion years to get us to where we are today - who knows how long he'll grow his kingdom here?)

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This explains why you don't know what's going on. If you don't believe the beginning of the book, how can you possibly believe the end.

Meh.

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I'm sorry you are 'meh' at the thought of prophecy being fulfilled right out in the open before your eyes, but beautiful art usually doesn't inspire the blind.

We'll see. Got a timetable for any of this?
I'd like to check back in and see how you're dealing with it and whether you're still a Christian after these predictions fail to transpire.

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My faith relies on the finished work of Christ alone. It is not the least bit fickle.

SeventyOne said:

Because the Revelation 12:1 sign was literally above us in the heavens on 9/23/17. That's my basis for thinking it. It was literally right above me.

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There is no "sign" being given in Revelation 12:1.

1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Seventy post: 75461854 said:

That sign isn't Mary. She gives birth to a child who rules the nations with a rod of iron, which is not Jesus, but Jesus and His Church. Collectively one body caught up into heaven as one. Revelation 12 is the soon rapture.




This explains why you don't know what's going on. If you don't believe the beginning of the book, how can you possibly believe the end.




I'm sorry you are 'meh' at the thought of prophecy being fulfilled right out in the open before your eyes, but beautiful art usually doesn't inspire the blind.




My faith relies on the finished work of Christ alone. It is not the least bit fickle.

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Meditate on Psalm 2, the child who rules the world with an Iron Rod is Jesus

SeventyOne said:

I'm sorry your timing is off, but there is still a very short time left for you to correct that.

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Do you think Satan and the wicked angels were cast out of heaven during 2017?

Do you think the "man-child" was born during 2017?


Great Errors in Dispensational Eschatology: Pastor John Otis




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eclipsenow said:

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The look on the face of the first Amiller when he realized the Greek word χίλιοι chílioi denotes one thousand and a one-thousand year period, and when he discovered all the warnings regarding Satan and his activities in the world given by Jesus and His apostles; and when he noticed the fact that in Revelation 12 we are told that the devil has been cast out of heaven, has come down to the earth and the sea "having great wrath, knowing that he has but a little time." (Revelation 12:12); and when he noticed the fact that we are then told about Satan going to war against "the woman" who had given birth to the Messiah, and then against "the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." (Revelation 12:13-17), which of course, refers to Satan's war against the churches of Christ:

In Revelation 2:12 Jesus tells the church at Pergamos, "I know your works, and where you live, even where Satan's seat is. And you hold fast My name and have not denied My faith, even in those days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwells."

In Revelation 2:9-10 Jesus tells the church in Smyrna, "I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.".

In his letter to the Christians in Corinth, Paul states, "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." (2 Corinthians 4:3-4).

In Ephesians 6:11-12 Paul tells the Christians in Ephesus to "put on the whole armour of God, for your being able to stand against the wiles of the devil", and then continues to say, "because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places".

In Acts 26:17-18, we read of Jesus telling Paul that He was sending Paul to the Gentiles ""To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."

In Acts 5:3 we read that Peter said to a man named Ananias, "why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?"

In Romans 16:20, Paul tells the church in Rome that "And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly."

In 1 Corinthians 5:5 Paul tells the church in Corinth to deliver the person who had sinned grievously unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

In 1 Corinthians 7:5 Paul says to the married couples in the same church, "Do not deprive one another, unless it is with consent for a time, so that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer. And come together again so that Satan does not tempt you for your incontinence."

In 2 Corinthians 2:11 Paul tells the same church to forgive the person who sinned "Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices."

In 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 Paul refers to teachers of false doctrines who sought to beguile Christians as "false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ", and then goes on to say, "Did not even Satan marvelously transform himself into an angel of light? Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves as ministers of righteousness, whose end shall be according to their works." (2 Cor 11:14-15).

So Paul was calling the teachers of false doctrine "ministers (servants) of Satan".

In 1 Thessalonians 2:18 Paul tells the Christians in Thessaloniki that he had and those who accompanied him on his journeys tried to come to them, "but Satan hindered us."

In 1 Timothy 5:15 Paul says that some Christians "have already turned aside after Satan."

In 1 Timothy 3:6-7 Paul says that anyone desiring the office of a Bishop should "not a novice, lest being puffed up he may fall into the condemnation of the Devil; and it behoveth him also to have a good testimony from those without, that he may not fall into reproach and a snare of the devil."

James tells Christians, "Therefore submit yourselves to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." (James 4:7).

Peter tells Christians to "Be sensible and vigilant, because your adversary the Devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking someone he may devour; whom firmly resist in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions in the world are being completed in your brotherhood." (1 Peter 5:8-9).

Douggg said:

There is no "sign" being given in Revelation 12:1.

1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

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And yet, there it was, just as scripture foretold.

BABerean2 said:

Do you think Satan and the wicked angels were cast out of heaven during 2017?

Do you think the "man-child" was born during 2017?
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Did I say that? NO, I didn't. You are currently in the midst of Revelation 12 fulfillment.

Joined2krist said:

Meditate on Psalm 2, the child who rules the world with an Iron Rod is Jesus

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Yes, it is and it is also the Church. Meditate on Revelation 2:26-27. Jesus and His Church are all one corporate body (Eph 5:23, Col 1:18). This male child in Revelation 12 has to be both Christ and His Church as one body because, without either component, it is missing the attribute of ruling the nations with a rod of iron.

SeventyOne said:

Did I say that? NO, I didn't. You are currently in the midst of Revelation 12 fulfillment.

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Is the beginning of Revelation 12 a reference to the twelve tribes through which the Messiah would come, as found in the dream of Joseph?

Or, Is it about the women on the boat with Moses, through which the Messiah would come?

Or, does it contain a reference to Mary, the mother of Jesus?

Or, is it about Genesis 3:15, where God promised Satan the seed of the woman would crush his head?

The answer is... "Yes.".


It is about the seed promise found fulfilled in Matthew 1:1, as confirmed by Paul in Galatians 3:16.



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BABerean2 said:

Is the beginning of Revelation 12 a reference to the twelve tribes through which the Messiah would come, as found in the dream of Joseph?

Or, Is it about the women on the boat with Moses, through which the Messiah would come?

Or, does it contain a reference to Mary, the mother of Jesus?

Or, is it about Genesis 3:15, where God promised Satan the seed of the woman would crush his head?

The answer is... "Yes.".


It is about the seed promise found fulfilled in Matthew 1:1, as confirmed by Paul in Galatians 3:16.



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If you actually read it, it starts out pointing to a "great sign seen in the heaven", which means the start of it is a great sign seen in the heaven. On September 23, 2017, we saw the great sign described right up there in the sky.

Apply as many figurative explainations as you want to it, but don't ignore it was literally in the sky as well. One can literally search the phrase "revelation 12 sign 2017" and see a lot of information about what took place.

I find these conversations odd because some of us who are watching (like me) knew about this sign appearing several years prior to the actual event. A mass of people on this site seem to miss a lot due to adherence to bad theology.

SeventyOne said:

A mass of people on this site seem to miss a lot due to adherence to bad theology.

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Anyone promoting a Bible doctrine which is less that 200 years old may want to look in the mirror before making the statement above.

Genesis of Dispensational Theology


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BABerean2 said:

Anyone promoting a Bible doctrine which is less that 200 years old may want to look in the mirror before making the statement above.

Genesis of Dispensational Theology
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And anyone thinking anything I said is less than 200 years old might want to take another look. I've watched your videos before and they are a great source of disinformation. I'm sorry you've let them deceive you like this. Seriously, time is short. Super short. Straighten yourself out.

This is by no means the end of times. Please don't take this the wrong way, but in my humble opinion, we are in NO WAY inside the "end times" If it WAS the end times, you would know. I think whatever you are referring to is merely child's play compared to the real end times. The world is a cake walk compared to what the end of times will be..let me rephrase that....the world today is EASIER than a cake walk

SeventyOne said:

Revelation is future, just not chronological. It does go over some of the same events but from various aspects.

Well, it's mostly future. Revelation 12:1-2 was fulfilled on 9/23/17.

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It cannot be. Your avoidance of the Op is testimony to the fact your position is untenable.

eclipsenow said:

Hi all,
anyone notice that the world keeps ending? Like at the end of the seven seals?

The 6th seal is the end of the world. See Revelation 6.

12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”​

The 7th seal just confirms it with more destruction. It's judgement day. It's wrath. It's the end. It's a picture that after the seven seals depicting TYRANNY, we see judgement day.

Then Revelation resets to a different theme and describes this side of heaven from another perspective. Seven trumpets depicting CHAOS in nature. There's horrible stuff this side of heaven, with violent earthquakes (mountains falling into the sea) and all kinds of badness, like Boxing Day tsunamis that wipe out 240,000 people. What are we to do? Wait till the end. Endure like the patient Christians we are meant to be, because at the end of the 7 Trumpets... (Rev 11)

The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”​

16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

19 Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm.​

That's Judgement Day. That's the end of this world. There's more to say about 7 Signs and 7 Plagues, but this is the overall pattern as described by by Dr Paul Barnett, theologian and historian and author of "Apocalypse now and then!"

Revelation describes life now, between Jesus Resurrection and his Return.
It doesn't prescribe some last decade or whatever. It's a metaphorical sermon about conditions now, for all Christians across the last 2000 years and counting. That's how the early church fathers understood it - and it's how the Reformers understood it.

The Last Days began at Pentecost (see Peter's sermon) and are described as the Last Days since Jesus fulfilled all prophecy on the cross (see Hebrews 1).

The sequences of seven are concurrent, not consecutive. They roughly describe the kind of life we can expect now, this side of heaven, then the end of the world. Then they reset to go to another theme and start again.

It goes like this:

Seven seals depicting TYRANNY - God judges the world and saves his people. Then reset to describe...

Seven trumpets depicting CHAOS in nature - God judges the world and saves his people. Then reset to describe...

Seven signs depicting PERSECUTION (then reset etc)
Seven plagues depicting DESTRUCTION (then it moves onto other things.)

That's the argument. The world keeps ending. This is just not a future timetable, but a waltz through theological themes and descriptions of life now.

Want something pertinent? We're literally living in a time of plague! We should be reading the seven plagues to get a description of what we are meant to remember and think about and be like.

Revelation describes life now, not some coded future timeline that's impossible for futurists to crack. How many times are we going to be embarrassed by yet more failed predictions? It's just silly, and makes people avoid the book. Instead, this Amil / historical approach declares the gospel loud and clear into a world that is suffering. People are hurting out there, and hurting bad. Just as they were when John wrote to a church about to feel the full might of an angry Roman Empire. He wrote words of comfort to them. He didn't say, "You think that's bad - just wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!" And we shouldn't likewise be saying silly things like "This Covid thing is nothing - you wait till you see what my wall-chart loosely based on Revelation says about the next 7 years!"
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What happens when the seven seals are opened, is all within.
These aren't future events, like everyone thinks they are, but they happen again and again, in the lives of God's elect. It actually tells you what the seals are a few verses before.

Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
Rev 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

The little book is the scriptures, which is Jesus Christ, and you cannot understand the scriptures, and thus Jesus Christ, unless Jesus Christ reveals them to you. With each new level of understanding comes a new level of suffering. That's just the way it is.