Revelation cannot be a future-timeline because the world keeps ending in it!

eclipsenow

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Hi all,
anyone notice that the world keeps ending? Like at the end of the seven seals?

The 6th seal is the end of the world. See Revelation 6.

12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

The 7th seal just confirms it with more destruction. It's judgement day. It's wrath. It's the end. It's a picture that after the seven seals depicting TYRANNY, we see judgement day.

Then Revelation resets to a different theme and describes this side of heaven from another perspective. Seven trumpets depicting CHAOS in nature. There's horrible stuff this side of heaven, with violent earthquakes (mountains falling into the sea) and all kinds of badness, like Boxing Day tsunamis that wipe out 240,000 people. What are we to do? Wait till the end. Endure like the patient Christians we are meant to be, because at the end of the 7 Trumpets... (Rev 11)


The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord
and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”​

16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

19 Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm.​

That's Judgement Day. That's the end of this world. There's more to say about 7 Signs and 7 Plagues, but this is the overall pattern as described by by Dr Paul Barnett, theologian and historian and author of "Apocalypse now and then!"

Revelation describes life now, between Jesus Resurrection and his Return.
It doesn't prescribe some last decade or whatever. It's a metaphorical sermon about conditions now, for all Christians across the last 2000 years and counting. That's how the early church fathers understood it - and it's how the Reformers understood it.

The Last Days began at Pentecost (see Peter's sermon) and are described as the Last Days since Jesus fulfilled all prophecy on the cross (see Hebrews 1).

The sequences of seven are concurrent, not consecutive. They roughly describe the kind of life we can expect now, this side of heaven, then the end of the world. Then they reset to go to another theme and start again.

It goes like this:

Seven seals depicting TYRANNY - God judges the world and saves his people. Then reset to describe...

Seven trumpets depicting CHAOS in nature - God judges the world and saves his people. Then reset to describe...

Seven signs depicting PERSECUTION (then reset etc)
Seven plagues depicting DESTRUCTION (then it moves onto other things.)

That's the argument. The world keeps ending. This is just not a future timetable, but a waltz through theological themes and descriptions of life now.

Want something pertinent? We're literally living in a time of plague! We should be reading the seven plagues to get a description of what we are meant to remember and think about and be like.

Revelation describes life now, not some coded future timeline that's impossible for futurists to crack. How many times are we going to be embarrassed by yet more failed predictions? It's just silly, and makes people avoid the book. Instead, this Amil / historical approach declares the gospel loud and clear into a world that is suffering. People are hurting out there, and hurting bad. Just as they were when John wrote to a church about to feel the full might of an angry Roman Empire. He wrote words of comfort to them. He didn't say, "You think that's bad - just wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!" And we shouldn't likewise be saying silly things like "This Covid thing is nothing - you wait till you see what my wall-chart loosely based on Revelation says about the next 7 years!"
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Douggg

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Revelation describes life now, between Jesus Resurrection and his Return.
It doesn't prescribe some last decade or whatever. It's a metaphorical sermon about conditions now, for all Christians across the last 2000 years and counting. That's how the early church fathers understood it - and it's how the Reformers understood it.
The events in Revelation are tied to 42 months, a time/times/half time, 1260 days, 3 1/2 days.

Other expressions like - for one hour, a short space.

All of these things are indicators of a short period of time in the world's history, right before Jesus's return.
 
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iamlamad

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...​
The sequences of seven are concurrent, not consecutive. They roughly describe the kind of life we can expect now, this side of heaven, then the end of the world. Then they reset to go to another theme and start again.

It goes like this:

Seven seals depicting TYRANNY - God judges the world and saves his people. Then reset to describe...

Seven trumpets depicting CHAOS in nature - God judges the world and saves his people. Then reset to describe...

Seven signs depicting PERSECUTION (then reset etc)
Seven plagues depicting DESTRUCTION (then it moves onto other things.)

That's the argument. The world keeps ending. This is just not a future timetable, but a waltz through theological themes and descriptions of life now.

Seven seals depicting TYRANNY - God judges the world and saves his people. Then reset to describe... Sorry, but the seven seals have one main purpose: to seal the book. The book is far more important than the seals.
1: the church sent out with the gospel
2-4: Satan's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel
5: the martyrs of the church age
6. The start of the Day of the Lord and judgment
7: the start of the 70th week of Daniel


Seven trumpets depicting CHAOS in nature - God judges the world and saves his people. Then reset to describe... The trumpets are the start of the judgment of God. The OT tells us the purpose of the Day of the Lord (DOL) is to destroy the world and the sinners on the world. The trumpets are starting this destruction. The 7th trumpet is to mark the midpoint of the week.

Seven signs depicting PERSECUTION (then reset etc)
The midpoint of the week is not the end: it is the beginning of what God does now that the world is back in HIS hands.

Seven plagues depicting DESTRUCTION (then it moves onto other things.)
Finally I can agree: the 7 vials are to finish the destruction started with the trumpets.

Things to note: the BOOK containing the 70th week cannot be opened until all 7 seals are opened first. The first thing written in the book is probably 7 angels get 7 trumpets. It is what is in side the BOOK that gets Satan kicked off his throne as god of this world. The seals MUST be opened first.

No vial can be poured out until all 7 trumpets have sounded.
No trumpet can sound until all 7 seals are opened first.
Once the 7th seal is opened, then the BOOK is opened to reveal the 7 trumpets.

This is what is written. Anything else is myth or imagination.
 
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keras

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The events in Revelation are tied to 42 months, a time/times/half time, 1260 days, 3 1/2 days.
Clarification; The events in Revelation 8:2 to Revelation 19:10 will happen during the final 3 1/2 years of this age. Culminating in the Return of Jesus, 2000 years since He was last here.

The 7 Seals are before that and the Letters to the Church's apply to the Church thru this age.
The Eternal State, after the Millennium, is described in Revelation 21 to 22.
 
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Douggg

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Clarification; The events in Revelation 8:2 to Revelation 19:10 will happen during the final 3 1/2 years of this age. Culminating in the Return of Jesus, 2000 years since He was last here.
For the most part I agree.

In the other thread, what I was saying to BAB2 is that the 7 years of Daniel 9:27 = the 7 years following Gog/Magog. The 7 years are also in Revelation.

Revelation 11:
1260 days + 3 1/2 days + 42 months = the 7 years.

Revelation 12:
1260 days + war in second heaven time + time/times/half time = 7 years.
 
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keras

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Want something pertinent? We're literally living in a time of plague!
Actually we are not experiencing anything extra-ordinary at all.
Just the usual respiratory disease that comes around regularly and Covid 19 is not as bad as many others; the death rate per infection is quite low.

But what is different this time, is the reaction of our Governments. They have decided to actively fight this infection and the result is our economies are shattered and may never fully recover.
This situation plays into the hands of those who want a One World Govt.
It WILL come, the Bible prophets predict it.
 
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keras

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For the most part I agree.

In the other thread, what I was saying to BAB2 is that the 7 years of Daniel 9:27 = the 7 years following Gog/Magog. The 7 years are also in Revelation.
No; they are not and cannot be, the same 7 year period. There is no reason for this.
It will be the G/M attack and their destruction, that will motivate the leader of the OWG to make a 7 year treaty with the new nation in all of the holy Land. Isaiah 62:1-5
 
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eclipsenow

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Revelation is future, just not chronological.
Not at all - the only 'future' bit is the promise of salvation on Judgement Day.

There are only 2 ages: now and then. No in between bit, no last days 'special tribulation'. John said in Chapter 1 that he shares in their tribulation. It started then, and describes the character of the time we are in. There will be storms and earthquakes and wars and beast states (like Hitler, Stalin, North Korea, etc.) These things come and go - but we are to hold on to our eternal promise.


Well, it's mostly future. Revelation 12:1-2 was fulfilled on 9/23/17.
Let me guess - you've got charts on the wall that explain it all? :doh:
How many times are futurists going to play this game?
92d180f885d14ff3fc5e08d7d3708515.jpg
 
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eclipsenow

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The events in Revelation are tied to 42 months, a time/times/half time, 1260 days, 3 1/2 days.



All of these things are indicators of a short period of time in the world's history, right before Jesus's return.
Except that Judgement Day / Jesus Returning / the Day of God's Wrath all keeps happening throughout the whole book! So why isn't this 3.5 years mentioned after the seals, trumpets, etc? Because those chapters of Revelation are focussing on another theme at that moment - it's not a timetable, it's a symbolic sermon encouraging us to be steadfast whatever comes our way.


In the most symbolic book in the bible, numbers are also symbolic.
7 = perfection, the fullness of time, God's control over history. Jesus having 7 eyes and 7 horns = perfect knowledge and perfect power.

3.5 means a limited time or short period. These bad things will break out now and then but in God's mercy he limits the time in which this judgement is handed out. It's the difference between knowing there will be wars and rumours of wars, and having a full scale major powers war like WW2 drag on forever. In ratio (half of 7) and use in the text (short patches of calamity) - it is as symbolic as all the rest of the numbers. There's just nothing literal about it.

12 being the tribes of Israel, and 12 * 12 = 144 being the tribes multiplied by the Apostles multiplied by "a gazillion" (1000) - see below.

1000 being 'a very large number, a gazillion' - Psalm 50 - "for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills." (If the thousand here is literal, what about the other 999,000 of the 'million' hills on earth? See what I did with a million there? :oldthumbsup: 1000 can be literal when it's counting something specific like the number of soldiers going into battle or treasure or something else specific - but is never like that with descriptions of God's view of time. EG: 2 Peter 3 discusses how God can both see the whole gazillion years of history, or zoom in on one moment as if he had a gazillion years to study that moment - like an individual praying to him. In the context of the passage it makes NO sense to demand that it is some sort of end times Enigma Code or Rosetta Stone!)

6 being the number of man (the day we were created on, the days of the week we work.)
 
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Douggg

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Because those chapters of Revelation are focussing on another theme at that moment - it's not a timetable, it's a symbolic sermon encouraging us to be steadfast whatever comes our way.
Some preacher in the Anglican tradition might think it is a symbolic sermon. But Revelation has within it a timetable of events leading up to Jesus's Return.
 
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eclipsenow

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Seven seals depicting TYRANNY - God judges the world and saves his people. Then reset to describe... Sorry, but the seven seals have one main purpose: to seal the book. The book is far more important than the seals.
But stuff happens as this book us unsealed - and then the world ends at the end of chapter 6. People can SEE GOD and begging the mountains to fall on them! There's no getting out of that just by reasserting whatever timetable you're shoving over the text.

The trumpets are the start of the judgment of God.
Except for the end of the seals - let's not just brush past that part of God's word, hey?

Seven signs depicting PERSECUTION (then reset etc) The midpoint of the week is not the end: it is the beginning of what God does now that the world is back in HIS hands.
Assertion is not an argument. You need to contribute data and facts that contribute to the shape of what you are saying.

Seven plagues depicting DESTRUCTION (then it moves onto other things.)
Finally I can agree: the 7 vials are to finish the destruction started with the trumpets.
Except we still haven't got passed how God ends the world at the end of the previous cycles.

Things to note: the BOOK containing the 70th week cannot be opened until all 7 seals are opened first. The first thing written in the book is probably 7 angels get 7 trumpets. It is what is in side the BOOK that gets Satan kicked off his throne as god of this world. The seals MUST be opened first.
Yes and no. The theology is right - as the seals are the gospel promise sealed up as a mystery until Jesus arrives with the gospel events. But no - the seals have been opened, past tense, in that the spiritual mystery Paul talks about has been revealed - God will include people of all nations in his kingdom through the death and resurrection of his son.

John indicates this is where he is going in the first chapter. It's a symbolic sermon, through and through - with no hint or speck of future timetable about it. Indeed in the clearer parts of the New Testament Jesus explains the last day will arrive like a thief in the night, like when the flood caught Noah's generation off guard - there will be NO INDICATION OR WARNING! It could be in 5 seconds, or 50,000 years. We have no indication and no warning.


This is what is written. Anything else is myth or imagination.
Or it's interpretation that the Early Church Fathers and Reformation giants used and stuck to. Seriously, it's apocalyptic metaphor. If anyone has to justify themselves and the weird way they read it it's you! What on earth are you doing reading it literally?

This is how cults start.

What is it with futurists and their arrogant proclamations like they've just written the Gospel of "Iamlamad"? I've had enough of that with another member here.
 
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SeventyOne

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Not at all - the only 'future' bit is the promise of salvation on Judgement Day.

There are only 2 ages: now and then. No in between bit, no last days 'special tribulation'. John said in Chapter 1 that he shares in their tribulation. It started then, and describes the character of the time we are in. There will be storms and earthquakes and wars and beast states (like Hitler, Stalin, North Korea, etc.) These things come and go - but we are to hold on to our eternal promise.



Let me guess - you've got charts on the wall that explain it all? :doh:
How many times are futurists going to play this game?

Well, we are so close to the still future events in Revelation that it's really not worth arguing about it. We saw Revelation 12:1-2 fulfilled back in 2017. Deny it, ignore it, whatever you want, it still happened.

Now we are rocketing face-first into a global cashless society where the AC will soon take power, affirming the covenant with the 'many' that Trump is still setting up, kicking the whole thing off. Again, deny it, ignore it, whatever you want, it's still happening.
 
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Douggg

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Well, we are so close to the still future events in Revelation that it's really not worth arguing about it. We saw Revelation 12:1-2 fulfilled back in 2017. Deny it, ignore it, whatever you want, it still happened.
The seven years begin by what it says in Daniel 9:27. Not by an astronomical sign in Revelation 12:1-2.
 
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Douggg

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eclipsenow

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Well, we are so close to the still future events in Revelation that it's really not worth arguing about it. We saw Revelation 12:1-2 fulfilled back in 2017. Deny it, ignore it, whatever you want, it still happened.
Nice try - that's Mary giving birth to Jesus.
That's the gospel events of 2000 years ago!
But you're right - we're 2000 years closer. But whether it's another 2 seconds, 2 thousand years, or 2 million - we just don't know. (As a Theistic Evolutionist I think God took 13 billion years to get us to where we are today - who knows how long he'll grow his kingdom here?)

Now we are rocketing face-first into a global cashless society where the AC will soon take power,
Unless we don't.

affirming the covenant with the 'many' that Trump is still setting up,
Meh.

kicking the whole thing off. Again, deny it, ignore it, whatever you want, it's still happening.
We'll see. Got a timetable for any of this?
I'd like to check back in and see how you're dealing with it and whether you're still a Christian after these predictions fail to transpire.
 
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BABerean2

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Hi all,
anyone notice that the world keeps ending? Like at the end of the seven seals?

The 6th seal is the end of the world. See Revelation 6.

12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

The 7th seal just confirms it with more destruction. It's judgement day. It's wrath. It's the end. It's a picture that after the seven seals depicting TYRANNY, we see judgement day.

Then Revelation resets to a different theme and describes this side of heaven from another perspective. Seven trumpets depicting CHAOS in nature. There's horrible stuff this side of heaven, with violent earthquakes (mountains falling into the sea) and all kinds of badness, like Boxing Day tsunamis that wipe out 240,000 people. What are we to do? Wait till the end. Endure like the patient Christians we are meant to be, because at the end of the 7 Trumpets... (Rev 11)


The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord
and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”​

16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

19 Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm.​

That's Judgement Day. That's the end of this world. There's more to say about 7 Signs and 7 Plagues, but this is the overall pattern as described by by Dr Paul Barnett, theologian and historian and author of "Apocalypse now and then!"

Revelation describes life now, between Jesus Resurrection and his Return.
It doesn't prescribe some last decade or whatever. It's a metaphorical sermon about conditions now, for all Christians across the last 2000 years and counting. That's how the early church fathers understood it - and it's how the Reformers understood it.

The Last Days began at Pentecost (see Peter's sermon) and are described as the Last Days since Jesus fulfilled all prophecy on the cross (see Hebrews 1).

The sequences of seven are concurrent, not consecutive. They roughly describe the kind of life we can expect now, this side of heaven, then the end of the world. Then they reset to go to another theme and start again.

It goes like this:

Seven seals depicting TYRANNY - God judges the world and saves his people. Then reset to describe...

Seven trumpets depicting CHAOS in nature - God judges the world and saves his people. Then reset to describe...

Seven signs depicting PERSECUTION (then reset etc)
Seven plagues depicting DESTRUCTION (then it moves onto other things.)

That's the argument. The world keeps ending. This is just not a future timetable, but a waltz through theological themes and descriptions of life now.

Want something pertinent? We're literally living in a time of plague! We should be reading the seven plagues to get a description of what we are meant to remember and think about and be like.

Revelation describes life now, not some coded future timeline that's impossible for futurists to crack. How many times are we going to be embarrassed by yet more failed predictions? It's just silly, and makes people avoid the book. Instead, this Amil / historical approach declares the gospel loud and clear into a world that is suffering. People are hurting out there, and hurting bad. Just as they were when John wrote to a church about to feel the full might of an angry Roman Empire. He wrote words of comfort to them. He didn't say, "You think that's bad - just wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!" And we shouldn't likewise be saying silly things like "This Covid thing is nothing - you wait till you see what my wall-chart loosely based on Revelation says about the next 7 years!"
View attachment 287313


Multiple Second Coming Visions in Revelation:


Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "mighty men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.


He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.


The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.


The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.


He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and we find the greatest earthquake in history in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial. How powerful is an earthquake which moves islands and destroys the mountains? What is happening to the planet?


He comes on a horse in chapter 19.


He comes with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1.
(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)
There are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46.
Revelation 9:14 proves some of the angels have already been bound in some manner.
Because the two witnesses were bodily resurrected from the dead in Revelation 11, the "first resurrection" at the beginning of Revelation 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the book.


The only way to properly interpret the book is through the principle of "Recapitulation".

.
 
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BABerean2

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We saw Revelation 12:1-2 fulfilled back in 2017. Deny it, ignore it, whatever you want, it still happened.


Since the beginning of Revelation 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, you are off by at least 1,900 years.


I do not deny it, or ignore it, because it did happen long ago.


.
 
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