want to talk about OSAS?

Are you an OSAS believer?

  • yes

    Votes: 27 43.5%
  • no

    Votes: 32 51.6%
  • of course

    Votes: 3 4.8%

  • Total voters
    62

RickReads

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Nobody here is suggesting in putting the cart before the horse. Most Conditonal Salvationists believe that we are initially and foundationally saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ (without the deeds of the Law), and then afterwards, we make good on our prayer to the Lord, and we put away sin, and we do good works as a part of the Sanctification Process (and in being loyal to our Lord). These good works are the works of God done through the believer and they are not their own works alone whereby they would boast in themselves. For all praise and glory go to Jesus for any good done in a believer's life.

I`ve been in quite a few of these debates. In some I found myself debating from the side of the works crowd due to erroneous remarks from the grace side. That isn`t the case here. The OSAS side has told you numerous times that they believe good works are produced by a believer and that works provide evidence of the salvation (smoke). The OSAS side in this debate has not endorsed sinning.

Like James vs Paul, both say same thing just frame it different.

Unfortunate that you`ve been too busy to hear any of that because you insist on playing with your OSAS strawman that you like to beat up with your prefabricated criticisms.
 
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Good then. You have a terrible habit of complicating things in attempt to be right, so when you make a post that may be right, I tend to think the worst, in that it's just more of the same.

So, now that you think you may finally have it right, here is a simple question test for you.

After reading the following scripture, tell me, is faith alone enough to get us to heaven, or do we also need to obey Christ, as in taking care of the poor, and not doing evil as a lifestyle? It is not a trick question.

“Those who believe in the Son have eternal life, but those who do not obey the Son will never have life. God’s anger stays on them.” John 3:36
2 different groups in the passage. Those who believe have eternal life. Those who do not have eternal life do not believe or obey depending on which translation you are using. Different Greek manuscripts have believe not while others obey not. It doesn't really matter since there are 2 distinct groups in 3:36.

hope this helps !!!
 
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You are still not explaining how your view of sin and salvation is different than OSAS, and how your view of Election is different than Calvinism. Your beliefs on these matters is still shrouded in mystery. What do you have to hide? Should the truth of God's Word be hidden?

As for talk of being the Elect:

12 “Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.” (Colossians 3:12-17).

Colossians 3 also says,
5 “Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:” (Colossians 3:5-6).

Even after everything I said, Calvin and OSAS :sigh:

There are plenty of differences between me and Calvin. Off the top of my head, pertaining to this discussion, I believe in limited freewill and that falling away can destroy salvation. Have to endure to the end to get the security. I`m not going to go waste my time studying Calvinism just to give you a list of things I disagree with them about. It`s unreasonable to ask me to do that. Likewise, asking me what I have to hide is an accusing, inappropiate remark that says more about you then it does me.
When I feel led to do so, I share personal testimony and I`ve had my time kneeling at the alter in front of hundreds of witnesses.

No mystery what I believe. I`ve put up over 500 posts to this board. Read the epistles and you can know what I believe.

Regarding your verses. You claim you don`t put the cart before the horse, and then, you put the cart before the horse. Your Colossians passages are all Paul teachings for mature believers. They are all things people do after the salvation as they follow and cooperate with the Holy Spirit.

None of it will add your name to the book of the elect. What those things can do for you is provide evidence for others to see that you are saved.
 
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Danthemailman

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Good then. You have a terrible habit of complicating things in attempt to be right, so when you make a post that may be right, I tend to think the worst, in that it's just more of the same.
I didn't realize I was making it so complicated. In a nutshell, man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is evidenced by works (James 2:14-26).

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merit of our works) that we are justified on based on Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony*

So, now that you think you may finally have it right, here is a simple question test for you.
Are you telling me I'm right?

After reading the following scripture, tell me, is faith alone enough to get us to heaven, or do we also need to obey Christ, as in taking care of the poor, and not doing evil as a lifestyle? It is not a trick question.
To get to heaven we must place our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Once we have been saved through faith and become new creations in Christ, then we obey Christ by practicing righteousness and loving our brother. 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

“Those who believe in the Son have eternal life, but those who do not obey the Son will never have life. God’s anger stays on them.” John 3:36
Be careful that you don't turn "obey the Son" into salvation by works here. In regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on the merits of our obedience/works which follows believing in the Son, but obey by choosing to believe in the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.

The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the CSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: "not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving." Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son.
 
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2 different groups in the passage. Those who believe have eternal life. Those who do not have eternal life do not believe or obey depending on which translation you are using. Different Greek manuscripts have believe not while others obey not. It doesn't really matter since there are 2 distinct groups in 3:36.

hope this helps !!!

Nope they are all people, noting there states a difference between the two.
 
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Kenny'sID

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I didn't realize I was making it so complicated. In a nutshell, man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is evidenced by works (James 2:14-26).

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merit of our works) that we are justified on based on Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony*

Are you telling me I'm right?

To get to heaven we must place our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Once we have been saved through faith and become new creations in Christ, then we obey Christ by practicing righteousness and loving our brother. 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

Be careful that you don't turn "obey the Son" into salvation by works here. In regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on the merits of our obedience/works which follows believing in the Son, but obey by choosing to believe in the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.

The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the CSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: "not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving." Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son.

See what I mean, it takes all that to complicate then spin what you choose to believe out of all that.

Was there an anwer to my simple question among the dance?
 
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Not only that, but if this verse is misread like the other one (#1239) was, it means that there is no hope for anyone who ever sins after conversion. Is THAT really your position?

How long have you debated with Conditional Salvationists or against Conditional Salvation?
If you have any inkling of knowledge in discussing this topic, you should realize that most Conditional Salvationists (like myself) believe the Bible when it teaches that a:

(a) We are intially and foundationally saved by God's grace.
(b) We have to continue to confess and forsake sin as necessary in order to maintain salvation or forgiveness.
(c) A believer (Who was saved by God's grace) can potentially commit a mortal sin and die spiritually, but they can be forgiven again (saved again), by confessing and forsaking their sin.​

So no. A believer who sins is not without hope of salvation. They can confess and forsake such sins. The problem I have with OSAS is that it says that one is still saved even while they abide in such sins. They can go party and get drunk with some hookers for a weekened and still be saved while doing so because a believer cannot lose their salvation according to OSAS.
 
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Danthemailman

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See what I mean, it takes all that to complicate then spin what you choose to believe out of all that.

Was there an anwer to my simple question among the dance?
What spin and dance and why do you have such a difficult time understanding what I explain to you? I answered your question.
 
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Bible Highlighter said:
Bible Highlighter said:
Ezekiel 33:18 says,
“When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity,
he shall die because of it.”

Yet another verse that refutes OSAS.
Not only that, but if this verse is misread like the other one (#1239) was, it means that there is no hope for anyone who ever sins after conversion. Is THAT really your position?

Oh, and by the way. Ezekiel 33:18 is talking about how a person can die spiritually if they turn away from their righteousness. It is not saying they are eternally condemned if they turn away from their righteousness. They can confess and forsake their sins and be forgiven again (or saved again). Hence, Ezekiel 33:18 is a warning to repent and or to come back to God. But in OSAS, there is no need to come back to God. One is once saved always saved even if they happen to fall off the path into sin for a bit.
 
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Not sure how highlighting the word in red here helps disproves what I said.
Then let's take it slowly.

You said that there is no Eternal Security, and then posted 1 Cor 10:12, which states: “Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.”

You apparently feel that this proves that there is no Eternal Security, right? Well, it doesn't. Very evidently, what the verse says is that he who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall....

It doesn't say anything about Eternal Security, or having it, although it says something about people who may mistakenly think they have been assured of it.

And with that, we're back to the same old, tired, diversion that has been posted innumerable times in this discussion, by which OSAS is said to be disproved because some people who don't understand it then misrepresent it!

You know...all that 'Easy Believeism' and 'license to sin' blather that doesn't do the first thing to address OSAS.
 
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Even after everything I said, Calvin and OSAS :sigh:

I am just trying to figure out what you believe. What you said so far sounds similar to beliefs that I have argued against for many years using the Bible.

You said:
There are plenty of differences between me and Calvin. Off the top of my head, pertaining to this discussion, I believe in limited freewill and that falling away can destroy salvation. Have to endure to the end to get the security.

But can mortal sin (like murder, adultery, hate, etc.) separate a believer from God and cause them to abide in spiritual death?
Do believers need to confess and forsake sin in order to maintain salvation?

You said:
I`m not going to go waste my time studying Calvinism just to give you a list of things I disagree with them about.

A moment ago you said there are plenty of differences between you and Calvin. Now you are saying that you are not going to waste your time studying Calvinism. So which is it? There are only 5 points in Calvinism and there are many websites that describes what these beliefs are.

It`s unreasonable to ask me to do that.

I don't believe that should be your attitude. Learning about what other Christians believe should be important to us in order to reach them if they are teaching something that is not biblically correct. We are told in the Bible to contend for the faith, and to correct and rebuke with all long suffering and doctrine.

You said:
Likewise, asking me what I have to hide is an accusing, inappropiate remark that says more about you then it does me.

I asked you to share your beliefs, and you initially simply refused to give me any answers. I am glad you gave me a little bit more information this time out. That was good, but I was expecting a more lengthy reply in why you disagree with me in this thread regarding this topic (Besides just the attack of my character). Again, if I assumed something wrong about your beliefs and they are not true, I would like to know all of what you believe on the matter that contradicts what I stated. I am more than happy to apologize if I assumed something wrong about what you actuallly believe. But just know that I have had many tell me they are for holy living in the OSAS camp and then later they turn around and say they can sin and still be saved. So you will have to forgive me if it sounds like you oppose what I am saying with Scripture and to not be suspicious of your beliefs. Again, lay it all out for me in your view on sin and salvation. Be as exhaustive on this topic as you can. Do not do it to help me, but do it to help others who may come across this thread reading.

You said:
No mystery what I believe. I`ve put up over 500 posts to this board. Read the epistles and you can know what I believe.

The problem is that I asked you and you did not initially share. But again, I am glad you did share a little bit of info. here in this second post. Thank you for that, but I was hoping for a lot more so as to understand why you are hostile to what I have posted here with Scripture.

You said:
Regarding your verses. You claim you don`t put the cart before the horse, and then, you put the cart before the horse.

How exactly do you see that I did that?
I believe that believers are intially and foundationally saved by God's grace through faith in Christ.
Being saved by God's grace is:

(a) Seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ.
(b) Believing that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later (the gospel).
(c) Receiving Christ as one's Lord and Savior.​

Without this first act of salvation, no believer can be saved. Meaning, no act of good works can be done until they are first saved by God's grace through faith in Christ. In fact, if a believer happens to fall into sin on rare occasion, do they go out and do a good work to offset that sin? No, no. Most certainly not. They go to God's grace by confessing their sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven of those sins (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1).

But after we are saved by God's grace, we have to enter the Sanctification Process as a part of God's plan of salvation. So no I do not believe in putting the cart before the horse as you falsely assume or accuse me of.

You said:
Your Colossians passages are all Paul teachings for mature believers. They are all things people do after the salvation as they follow and cooperate with the Holy Spirit.

So you are of the view like OSAS proponents on this thread who believes we are saved and then we are changed automatically to follow the Spirit? Before you said that a believer can fall away. What does that look like?

You said:
None of it will add your name to the book of the elect. What those things can do for you is provide evidence for others to see that you are saved.

I don't get that impression when I read Revelation 21.

“And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.” (Revelation 21:27).

Revelation 22:14 says,
“Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city”
 
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Then let's take it slowly.

You said that there is no Eternal Security, and then posted 1 Cor 10:12, which states: “Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.”

You apparently feel that this proves that there is no Eternal Security, right? Well, it doesn't. Very evidently, what the verse says is that he who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall....

Which applies to all including the OSAS or the Eternal Security Proponent.

You said:
It doesn't say anything about Eternal Security, or having it, although it says something about people who may mistakenly think they have been assured of it.

It doesn't say that in the verse. It simply says that he who thinks he stands take heed otherwise he falls. One cannot fall away in OSAS because one is always standing and assured. You danced around the truth of what this verse says and invented something in the verse that it does not say. There is no such thing as a person who is not a believer to take heed in how they stand. Paul was writing to the Corinthians who are believers.

You said:
You know...all that 'Easy Believeism' and 'license to sin' blather that doesn't do the first thing to address OSAS.

Then give me some assurance. Give our readers some assurance and answer the questions I put forth to you before. Was King David saved WHILE he was committing his sins of adultery and murder? Yes, or no? It's a simple question. But you keep dodging it.
 
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Which applies to all including the OSAS or the Eternal Security Proponent.

.
Paul below makes it clear that the believer has SECURITY.

And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified (Romans 8:30).

Aorist active indicative which means a completed action in the past. So believers have been justified and glorified in Christ. Its a done deal. No wiggling out of that BH. Jesus accomplished this for us at the cross. Its been completed for us by Christ out justification and glorification. We are already seated(past tense) in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus ( Ephesians 2:4-6).

Its time you believe Gods word and not your doctrine.

hope this helps !!!
 
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I`ve been in quite a few of these debates. In some I found myself debating from the side of the works crowd due to erroneous remarks from the grace side. That isn`t the case here. The OSAS side has told you numerous times that they believe good works are produced by a believer and that works provide evidence of the salvation (smoke). The OSAS side in this debate has not endorsed sinning.

Not true. One poster here said that King David was still saved WHILE he committed his sins of adultery and murder. Also, the message of OSAS itself can automatically lead a person to treat God's grace as a license to sin all on it's own. If I tell a person they are once saved always saved and I say nothing more, they are going to sin at some point and think they are still saved because nothing can separate them from God's salvation. Thus, they can turn God's grace into a license for immorality very easily by just a simple OSAS message.

As for you endorsing the works side against certain grace folk:
It does not have to be the exact conversation from before, but can you give us an example? What verses did you use or which ones would you use now?
 
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Paul below makes it clear that the believer has SECURITY.

And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified (Romans 8:30).

Aorist active indicative which means a completed action in the past. So believers have been justified and glorified in Christ. Its a done deal. No wiggling out of that BH. Jesus accomplished this for us at the cross. Its been completed for us by Christ out justification and glorification. We are already seated(past tense) in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus ( Ephesians 2:4-6).

Its time you believe Gods word and not your doctrine.

hope this helps !!!

I have given you plenty of verses that refutes your belief and you have not addressed them so far with the context of Scripture and or a word for word explanation. Please go back and address them and I will be happy to address your verses.
 
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Paul below makes it clear that the believer has SECURITY.

And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified (Romans 8:30).

Aorist active indicative which means a completed action in the past. So believers have been justified and glorified in Christ. Its a done deal. No wiggling out of that BH. Jesus accomplished this for us at the cross. Its been completed for us by Christ out justification and glorification. We are already seated(past tense) in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus ( Ephesians 2:4-6).

Its time you believe Gods word and not your doctrine.

hope this helps !!!

Oh, and in case you don't remember what post it is, it is post #998.
 
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My comments in ()

I am just trying to figure out what you believe. What you said so far sounds similar to beliefs that I have argued against for many years using the Bible.

( If you just asked me I would tell you. Instead you like to make assumptions and then next thing you are trying to tell me what I believe. I don`t like that.)

But can mortal sin (like murder, adultery, hate, etc.) separate a believer from God and cause them to abide in spiritual death?

( Of course.)

Do believers need to confess and forsake sin in order to maintain salvation?

(Of course.)

A moment ago you said there are plenty of differences between you and Calvin. Now you are saying that you are not going to waste your time studying Calvinism. So which is it? There are only 5 points in Calvinism and there are many websites that describes what these beliefs are.

( I know Calvinism because I have debated some. I have zero interest in reading what Calvin said apart from the pain of researching him for debating. Not going to do it to make you happy LOL! )

I don't believe that should be your attitude. Learning about what other Christians believe should be important to us in order to reach them if they are teaching something that is not biblically correct. We are told in the Bible to contend for the faith, and to correct and rebuke with all long suffering and doctrine.

( You do that in your own denomination, your own church, your own brethren that you have some responsibility for and who will listen to you. You can`t expect to come into a situation like this and rebuke everybody and then suddenly they all see the light and agree with everything you say. It doesn`t serve God to have that mentality. You remind me of me about 20 years ago. One day you`ll wake up, be burned out, and realize you used a bunch of your eneargy in a way that didn`t help anyone.)

I asked you to share your beliefs, and you initially simply refused to give me any answers. I am glad you gave me a little bit more information this time out. That was good, but I was expecting a more lengthy reply in why you disagree with me in this thread regarding this topic (Besides just the attack of my character). Again, if I assumed something wrong about your beliefs and they are not true, I would like to know all of what you believe on the matter that contradicts what I stated. I am more than happy to apologize if I assumed something wrong about you. But just know that I have had many tell me they are for holy living in the OSAS camp and then later they turn around and say they can sin and still be saved. So you will have to forgive me if it sounds like you oppose what I am saying with Scripture and to not be suspicious of your beliefs. Again, lay it all out for me in your view on sin and salvation. Be as exhaustive on this topic as you can. Do not do it to help me, but do it to help others who may come across this thread reading.

(But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little)

(This is just a recreational activity to me. I contribute content over time. So far it`s over 600 posts that collectively reveal much about me.)

The problem is that I asked you and you did not initially share. But again, I am glad you did share a little bit of info. here in this second post. Thank you for that, but I was hoping for a lot more so as to understand why you are hostile to what I have posted here with Scripture.

( I think I`ve been pretty straight to the point. You can`t accuse somebody of being something they are not, accuse them of believing things they don`t believe without a reasonable expectation that you will irritate them by doing so.)

( The best way to understand my theology is to realize that I only care about what Paul taught Gentiles to believe and do. I have no interest in what I will generously call interpretations of the scriptures that came later.)

How exactly do you see that I did that?

( Did what? You are so used to beating your strawman that you forgot to tell me what you think I thought you did.)


I believe that believers are intially and foundationally saved by God's grace through faith in Christ.
Being saved by God's grace is:

(a) Seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ.
(b) Believing that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later (the gospel).
(c) Receiving Christ as one's Lord and Savior.​

Without this first act of salvation, no believer can be saved. Meaning, no act of good works can be done until they are first saved by God's grace through faith in Christ. In fact, if a believer happens to fall into sin on rare occasion, do they go out and do a good work to offset that sin? No, no. Most certainly not. They go to God's grace by confessing their sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven of those sins (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1).

But after we are saved by God's grace, we have to enter the Sanctification Process as a part of God's plan of salvation. So no I do not believe in putting the cart before the horse as you falsely assume or accuse me of.

( Only problem is you did put the cart before the horse. I didn`t have to make anything up to prove it.)

So you are of the view like OSAS proponents on this thread who believes we are saved and then we are changed automatically to follow the Spirit?

( I don`t believe it`s automatic. I strongly oppose those who do)

Before you said that a believer can fall away. What does that look like?

( In the Bible falling away means to stop believing Jesus is Messiah. In our day it`s like a former Chrisitan who becomes athiest, agnostic, non religeous in some way or converts to another religeon.)

I don't get that impression when I read Revelation 21.

( What impression? You`re talking to the strawman again.)

“And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.” (Revelation 21:27).

Revelation 22:14 says,
“Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city”

( These are standards that can only be met by having the covering of His righteousness and the help of His Spirit. Your efforts are filthy rags in his sight. In the original Hebrew it meant something more filthy then a dirty towel. You want to know why I`m disagreeing with your opinions? There you go.)
 
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Oh, and in case you don't remember what post it is, it is post #998.
You once again are being evasive as I never mentioned Romans 8 and the discussion I was having was pertaining to eternal life passages. But you did not address the text I just quoted about being justified and glorified.
 
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