want to talk about OSAS?

Are you an OSAS believer?

  • yes

    Votes: 27 43.5%
  • no

    Votes: 32 51.6%
  • of course

    Votes: 3 4.8%

  • Total voters
    62

1an

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thanks for answering only Jesus can set one free from bondage to sin.
Yes, we need Christ and just as Jesus is God on earth, when He returned to Glory he said he would send the comforter, and many were filled with the Holy Spirit. This brings us to John 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

I feel this is part of the conversion process worldwide coupled with events in a persons life, and as a result some people respond. Praise God. How does this scan with your views in relation to the teaching of OSAS, or does it not?
.
 
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Yes, we need Christ and just as Jesus is God on earth, when He returned to Glory he said he would send the comforter, and many were filled with the Holy Spirit. This brings us to John 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

I feel this is part of the conversion process worldwide coupled with events in a persons life, and as a result some people respond. Praise God. How does this scan with your view in relation to the teaching of OSAS, or does it not?
.
I believe just as our physical birth cannot be reversed the same is true with our spiritual birth. Once we are born we do not become unborn. Those who are truly born again are New Creations in Christ. Once we are created new we do not become uncreated. I believe the new birth is irreversible. Eternal Life is forever once it has been given to us by Christ. Those who are born from above will seek His kingdom, His rule in their lives and not live for themselves or this world since it is not our home. I believe all the warning passages have to do with the wheat and the tares. Tares have the appearance of wheat on the outside by they are different inside.

hope this helps !!!
 
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1an

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I believe just as our physical birth cannot be reversed the same is true with our spiritual birth. once we are born we do not become unborn.

hope this helps !!!
The idea that we cannot be "unborn" is the teaching of man and not of God and this is why I say that:

Hosea 11:7 And my people are bent to backsliding from me: though they called them to the most High, none at all would exalt him.

Isaiah 59:12-13 For our offenses are many in your sight, and our sins testify against us. Our offenses are ever with us, and we acknowledge our iniquities: rebellion and treachery against the LORD, turning our backs on our God, inciting revolt and oppression, uttering lies our hearts have conceived.

Jeremiah 5:6 Therefore a lion from the forest will attack them, a wolf from the desert will ravage them, a leopard will lie in wait near their towns to tear to pieces any who venture out, for their rebellion is great and their backslidings many.

Jeremiah 2:19 Your wickedness will punish you; your backsliding will rebuke you. Consider then and realize how evil and bitter it is for you when you forsake the LORD your God and have no awe of me,” declares the Lord, the LORD Almighty.

Hosea 5:15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

Jeremiah 3:22 “Return, faithless people; I will cure you of backsliding.” “Yes, we will come to you, for you are the LORD our God.”

2 Chronicles 7:14 If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

2 Samuel 24:15 So the LORD sent a plague on Israel from that morning until the end of the time designated, and seventy thousand of the people from Dan to Beersheba died.

2 Samuel 12:18-19 On the seventh day the child died. David’s attendants were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they thought, “While the child was still living, he wouldn’t listen to us when we spoke to him. How can we now tell him the child is dead? He may do something desperate.” David noticed that his attendants were whispering among themselves, and he realized the child was dead. “Is the child dead?” he asked. “Yes,” they replied, “he is dead.”

Revelation 2:4 But I have this against you, that you have left your first love.

Deuteronomy 8:11-14 “Be careful that you don’t forget the Lord your God by failing to keep His command—the ordinances and statutes—I am giving you today. When you eat and are full, and build beautiful houses to live in, and your herds and flocks grow large, and your silver and gold multiply, and everything else you have increases, be careful that your heart doesn’t become proud and you forget the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the place of slavery.”

Jeremiah 5:7-9 “Why should I forgive you? Your children have forsaken me and sworn by gods that are not gods. I supplied all their needs, yet they committed adultery and thronged to the houses of prostitutes. They are well-fed, lusty stallions, each neighing for another man’s wife. Should I not punish them for this?” declares the LORD. “Should I not avenge myself on such a nation as this?”

Romans 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

Isaiah 57:17-18 Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry, I struck him; I hid my face and was angry, but he went on backsliding in the way of his own heart. I have seen his ways, but I will heal him; I will lead him and restore comfort to him and his mourners.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 3:8-9 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

Hebrews 12:6-8 for the Lord disciplines the one He loves and punishes every son He receives. Endure suffering as discipline: God is dealing with you as sons. For what son is there that a father does not discipline? But if you are without discipline—which all receive then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

Psalm 51:4 Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight; so you are right in your verdict and justified when you judge.

Jeremiah 15:19-21 Therefore this is what the LORD says: “If you repent, I will restore you that you may serve me; if you utter worthy, not worthless, words, you will be my spokesman. Let this people turn to you, but you must not turn to them. I will make you a wall to this people, a fortified wall of bronze; they will fight against you but will not overcome you, for I am with you to rescue and save you,” declares the LORD. “I will save you from the hands of the wicked and deliver you from the grasp of the cruel.”

Proverbs 14:14 The backslider in heart will be filled with the fruit of his ways, and a good man will be filled with the fruit of his ways.
 
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I believe it is God's wish that everyone should turn to him, whereas to my mind the word elect speaks of a special group, elected or chosen for a special task or purpose. Saul was one elected by God and so were the disciples. These and many more stand out from the crowd.

With this in mind, when people say they have been elected, I get alarm bells ringing in my head. If it was for everyone who is saved that would mean I was elected and I do not feel that at all. I am simply one of the sheep who follows the Good Shepherd. Anyway, those are my thoughts.
.

What indication in the New Testament does the word “elect” or “election” refer to only the service of the believer. I do not get that impression by these words, my brother.

“And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” (Matthew 24:31).​

Are you saying that only those believers who were chosen for specific task are going to be taken up by angels in the Middle of the Tribulation (after the Abominations of Desolations)?

Then there is Romans 8:33.

“Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.” (Romans 8:33).

The context does not sound like a special group of believers, but it sounds like a reference to all believers.

31 “What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.” (Romans 8:31-34).
And even more context tells us that these elect are those that love God and are called according to his purpose (i.e. The purpose of all Christ following believers according to the words of Jesus and His followers found in the New Testament Scriptures).

28 “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” (Romans 8:28-30).​

The majority of mankind is called or elected to salvation by Jesus Christ and what He has done for them. I believe some are not predestinated or called on the account of something really really bad that God knows they will do as a matter of fact (like worshiping the beast).

“And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” (Revelation 13:8).

“The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.” (Revelation 17:8).​

It says that those who worship the beast did not even have their names written in the Lamb's book of life since the foundation of the world. This means that Jesus did not die for their sins on the account that GOD knew that they would worship the beast as a matter of fact. For 1 Peter 1:1-2 says that Peter and the other believers were elected according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.

So God did not elect those who will worship the beast in the future. They never even had a chance at salvation on the account of God knowing what they would do that was really really bad. So this way, God can elect everyone else who did have a shot or chance at salvation. For their kinds of sins were forgivable. Worshiping the beast is not a forgivable sin in God's eyes. Men like John MacArthur (a Calvinist and a professed Eternal Security Proponent) says that a person can take the mark of the beast and they can still be saved afterwards. Listen to this audio clip by him here:


But that is not what the Bible says (Revelation 13:8) (Revelation 17:8).
 
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I believe it is God's wish that everyone should turn to him, whereas to my mind the word elect speaks of a special group, elected or chosen for a special task or purpose. Saul was one elected by God and so were the disciples. These and many more stand out from the crowd.

With this in mind, when people say they have been elected, I get alarm bells ringing in my head. If it was for everyone who is saved that would mean I was elected and I do not feel that at all. I am simply one of the sheep who follows the Good Shepherd. Anyway, those are my thoughts.
.

Side Note:

Oh, and I do see that the word “election” used in reference to Israelites in the New Testament. But I think that this word is also used generically of New Covenant believers, as well. Well, I could be wrong of course. I never did a super deep study on these words in the Bible before, and I would be more than happy to be corrected if that is what the Scriptures say.

In any event, may God's love shine upon you today, brother. I think we agree on salvation, but we just use different wording. Peace and blessings to you today, brother.
 
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thanks for answering only Jesus can set one free from bondage to sin.

But how does He choose? In Calvinism it is an UNconditional Election. This means there is no real conditions God is basing that election to salvation upon. So God is just randomly choosing some to be saved. Does not sound like the God of the Bible to me. 2 Peter 3:9 says that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
 
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thanks for answering only Jesus can set one free from bondage to sin.

I love the God of the Bible. But I do not see the god of Calvinism described within it (of which I do not like). For I do not see God forcing His salvation upon anyone. In fact, God gets upset at men sinning which is not possible in a Calvinistic Universe unless you believe God has anger issues that He cannot solve. For why would God be upset? He can just elect or force a person to be a certain way against their will instead of getting mad at them and their bad actions. God is sovereign, right?
 
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thanks for answering only Jesus can set one free from bondage to sin.

Have you ever read Jonah 3:6-10 lately?
I ask this because I do not see how Calvinism works in that passage.
Neither do I see how it works in 2 Thessalonians 2:10, either.
 
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1an

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What indication in the New Testament does the word “elect” or “election” refer to only the service of the believer. I do not get that impression by these words, my brother.

“And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” (Matthew 24:31).​

Are you saying that only those believers who were chosen for specific task are going to be taken up by angels in the Middle of the Tribulation (after the Abominations of Desolations)?

Then there is Romans 8:33.

“Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.” (Romans 8:33).

The context does not sound like a special group of believers, but it sounds like a reference to all believers.

31 “What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.” (Romans 8:31-34).
And even more context tells us that these elect are those that love God and are called according to his purpose (i.e. The purpose of all Christ following believers according to the words of Jesus and His followers found in the New Testament Scriptures).

28 “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” (Romans 8:28-30).​

The majority of mankind is called or elected to salvation by Jesus Christ and what He has done for them. I believe some are not predestinated or called on the account of something really really bad that God knows they will do as a matter of fact (like worshiping the beast).

“And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” (Revelation 13:8).

“The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.” (Revelation 17:8).​

It says that those who worship the beast did not even have their names written in the Lamb's book of life since the foundation of the world. This means that Jesus did not die for their sins on the account that GOD knew that they would worship the beast as a matter of fact. For 1 Peter 1:1-2 says that Peter and the other believers were elected according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.

So God did not elect those who will worship the beast in the future. They never even had a chance at salvation on the account of God knowing what they would do that was really really bad. So this way, God can elect everyone else who did have a shot or chance at salvation. For their kinds of sins were forgivable. Worshiping the beast is not a forgivable sin in God's eyes. Men like John MacArthur (a Calvinist and a professed Eternal Security Proponent) says that a person can take the mark of the beast and they can still be saved afterwards. Listen to this audio clip by him here:


But that is not what the Bible says (Revelation 13:8) (Revelation 17:8).

You post a lot of material and I am getting tired, so with regard to Matthew 24:31 let me quote Albert Barns.

And he shall send his angels - “Angels” signify, literally, “messengers,” Luk_7:24; Luk_9:52. The word is often applied to inanimate objects, or to anything that God employs to rescue his people from danger Psa_104:4; but it most commonly refers to the race of intelligent beings more exalted than man, who are employed often in the work of man’s rescue from ruin, and aiding his salvation, Heb_1:14. In either of these senses it might here refer to deliverance granted to his people in the calamities of Jerusalem. It is said that there is reason to believe that not one Christian perished in the destruction of that city, God having in various ways secured their escape, so that they fled to Pella, where they lived when the city was destroyed. But the language seems to refer rather to the end of the world, and, no doubt, its principal application was intended to be to the gathering of his elect at the day of judgment:

With a great sound of a trumpet - The Jewish assemblies used to be called together by the sound of a trumpet, as ours are by bells, Lev_25:9; Num_10:2; Jdg_3:27. Hence, when they spoke of convening an assembly, they spoke also of doing it by sounding a trumpet. Our Saviour, speaking to Jews, used language to which they were accustomed, and described the assembling of the people at the last day in language which they were accustomed to use in calling assemblies together. It is not certain, however, that he meant that this would be literally so, but it may be designed only to denote the certainty that the “world would be assembled together.” Similar language is often used when speaking of the judgment, 1Th_4:16; 1Co_15:52. A trump, or trumpet, was a wind instrument, made at first from the horns of oxen, and afterward of rams’ horns, cut off at the smaller extremity. In some instances it was made of brass, in the form of a horn. The common trumpet was straight, made of brass or silver, a cubit in length, the larger extremity shaped so as to resemble a small bell. In times of peace, in assembling the people, this was sounded softly. In times of calamity, or war, or any great commotion, it was sounded loud. Perhaps this was referred to when our Saviour said, with a great sound of a trumpet.

They shall gather together his elect - Elect. See the notes at Mat_24:22. The word means Christians - the chosen of God. If this refers to the destruction of Jerusalem, it means, “God shall send forth his messengers - whatever he may choose to employ for that purpose: signs, wonders, human messengers, or the angels themselves - and gather Christians into a place of safety, so that they shall not be destroyed with the Jews.” If it refers to the last judgment, as it doubtless in a primary or secondary sense does, then it means that he will send his angels to gather his chosen, his elect, together from all places, Mat_13:39, Mat_13:41-43. This shall be done before the living shall be changed, 1Co_15:51-52; 1Th_4:16-17.

From the four winds - That is, from the four quarters of the globe - east, west, north, and south. The Jews expressed those quarters by the winds blowing from them See Eze_37:9. See also Isa_43:5-6. “From one end of heaven, etc.” Mark says Mar_13:27, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. The expression denotes that they shall be gathered from all parts of the earth where they are scattered. The word “heaven” is used here to denote the “visible” heavens or the sky, meaning that through “the whole world” he would gather them. See Psa_19:1-7; Deu_4:32.
.
 
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But how does He choose? In Calvinism it is an UNconditional Election. This means there is no real conditions God is basing that election to salvation upon. So God is just randomly choosing some to be saved. Does not sound like the God of the Bible to me. 2 Peter 3:9 says that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
look lets talk scripture, not calvin.
 
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1an

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Side Note:

Oh, and I do see that the word “election” used in reference to Israelites in the New Testament. But I think that this word is also used generically of New Covenant believers, as well. Well, I could be wrong of course. I never did a super deep study on these words in the Bible before, and I would be more than happy to be corrected if that is what the Scriptures say.

In any event, may God's love shine upon you today, brother. I think we agree on salvation, but we just use different wording. Peace and blessings to you today, brother.


Matthew 24:22
Except those days should be shortened - If the calamities of the siege should be lengthened out. If famine and war should be suffered to rage.
No flesh be saved - None of the nation would be preserved alive. All the inhabitants of Judea would perish. The war, famine, and pestilence would entirely destroy them.

But for the elect’s sake - The “elect” here doubtless means “Christians.” See 1Pe_1:2; Rom_1:7; Eph_1:4; 1Th_1:4. The word “elect” means “to choose.” It is given to Christians because they are “chosen to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth,” 1Pe_1:2. It is probable that in Jerusalem and the adjacent parts of Judea there were many who were true followers of Christ. On their account - to preserve them alive, and to make them the instruments of spreading the gospel Jesus said that those days should not be lengthened out so as to produce their destruction.

It is related by Josephus (Jewish Wars, b. 1 chapter 12, section 1) that Titus at first resolved to reduce the city by famine. He therefore built a wall around it to keep any provisions from being carried in, and any of the people from going out. The Jews, however, drew up their army near the walls, engaged in battle, and the Romans pursued them, provoked by their attempts, and broke into the city. The affairs of Rome, also, at that time demanded the presence of Titus there; and, contrary to his original intention he pressed the siege and took the city by storm, thus “shortening” the time that would have been occupied in reducing it by famine. This was for the benefit of the “elect.” So the designs of wicked people, intended by them for the destruction of the people of God, are intended by God for the good of his chosen people. See the notes at Isa_10:7.
.
 
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There is a lot there and I am getting tired, so with regard to Matthew 24:31 let me quote Albert Barns.

And he shall send his angels - “Angels” signify, literally, “messengers,” Luk_7:24; Luk_9:52. The word is often applied to inanimate objects, or to anything that God employs to rescue his people from danger Psa_104:4; but it most commonly refers to the race of intelligent beings more exalted than man, who are employed often in the work of man’s rescue from ruin, and aiding his salvation, Heb_1:14. In either of these senses it might here refer to deliverance granted to his people in the calamities of Jerusalem. It is said that there is reason to believe that not one Christian perished in the destruction of that city, God having in various ways secured their escape, so that they fled to Pella, where they lived when the city was destroyed. But the language seems to refer rather to the end of the world, and, no doubt, its principal application was intended to be to the gathering of his elect at the day of judgment:

With a great sound of a trumpet - The Jewish assemblies used to be called together by the sound of a trumpet, as ours are by bells, Lev_25:9; Num_10:2; Jdg_3:27. Hence, when they spoke of convening an assembly, they spoke also of doing it by sounding a trumpet. Our Saviour, speaking to Jews, used language to which they were accustomed, and described the assembling of the people at the last day in language which they were accustomed to use in calling assemblies together. It is not certain, however, that he meant that this would be literally so, but it may be designed only to denote the certainty that the “world would be assembled together.” Similar language is often used when speaking of the judgment, 1Th_4:16; 1Co_15:52. A trump, or trumpet, was a wind instrument, made at first from the horns of oxen, and afterward of rams’ horns, cut off at the smaller extremity. In some instances it was made of brass, in the form of a horn. The common trumpet was straight, made of brass or silver, a cubit in length, the larger extremity shaped so as to resemble a small bell. In times of peace, in assembling the people, this was sounded softly. In times of calamity, or war, or any great commotion, it was sounded loud. Perhaps this was referred to when our Saviour said, with a great sound of a trumpet.

They shall gather together his elect - Elect. See the notes at Mat_24:22. The word means Christians - the chosen of God. If this refers to the destruction of Jerusalem, it means, “God shall send forth his messengers - whatever he may choose to employ for that purpose: signs, wonders, human messengers, or the angels themselves - and gather Christians into a place of safety, so that they shall not be destroyed with the Jews.” If it refers to the last judgment, as it doubtless in a primary or secondary sense does, then it means that he will send his angels to gather his chosen, his elect, together from all places, Mat_13:39, Mat_13:41-43. This shall be done before the living shall be changed, 1Co_15:51-52; 1Th_4:16-17.

From the four winds - That is, from the four quarters of the globe - east, west, north, and south. The Jews expressed those quarters by the winds blowing from them See Eze_37:9. See also Isa_43:5-6. “From one end of heaven, etc.” Mark says Mar_13:27, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. The expression denotes that they shall be gathered from all parts of the earth where they are scattered. The word “heaven” is used here to denote the “visible” heavens or the sky, meaning that through “the whole world” he would gather them. See Psa_19:1-7; Deu_4:32.
.

Well, it appears that this commentator agrees with me that they are Christians. Where I disagree with this commentator is that I believe they are being taken up to be with God so as to not go through the Wrath. Because it says “but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.” (Matthew 24:22).

Luke 17:36-37 says,
“Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.”

They are being taken to the battle of Armageddon. But this taking up is taking place during the Middle of the Tribulation. For anyone who knows End Times studies knows that the Abominations of Desolations happens in the Middle of the Tribulaton based on Scripture.

The Middle of the Tribulation:
(Also Known As the "Middle of Daniel's 70th Week"):
(Last Month of the 1st Half of the Tribulation):
(30 Days Before the Midpoint Day of the Tribulation):

The Beast Takes Jerusalem & The Temple Sacrifices Are Stopped:
(And the Gentile Nations Will Trod Down Upon the City for 42 Months):

Daniel 11:31a NIV

His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice.​

Daniel 12:11a NLT and Daniel 12:11b NLT

From the time the daily sacrifice is stopped... there will be 1,290 days.​

Revelation 11:2 NLT

The nations ... will trample the holy city for 42 months.​

The Beast & the False Prophet Set Up the Abomination of Desolations in the Jewish Temple:


Revelation 13:14-15

They... make an image to the beast, that had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.​

Matthew 24:15-22

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand): Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.​

Mark 13:14-20

But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.​

Daniel 9:24-27

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.​

A Select Group of Jews Flee to the Mountains:

(Which can also be referred to as "the wilderness" within the Scriptures)

Revelation 12:6

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and three score days.​

Revelation 12:14-16

And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.​
 
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look lets talk scripture, not calvin.

I was talking Scripture. I mentioned 2 Peter 3:9.
Also, Calvinism relates to OSAS because that is where it originates from.
So the two are tied together. For many who defend OSAS will say that a believer will be in a way forced to live a certain way and they will not justify sin (even though they have told me at other times that they can sin and still be saved). Calvinism is all about God forcing people to be a certain way or to be saved. OSAS is saying the same thing. Many will say if a believer is living an immoral lifestyle, they were never born again to begin with. Meaning, God forces a believer to be a certain way after they are saved by Grace. But this is not what Scripture teaches. We are told in Scripture to continue in God's grace. We are told to continue in the faith. We are told to keep ourselves in the love of God.
 
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Matthew 24:22
Except those days should be shortened - If the calamities of the siege should be lengthened out. If famine and war should be suffered to rage.
No flesh be saved - None of the nation would be preserved alive. All the inhabitants of Judea would perish. The war, famine, and pestilence would entirely destroy them.

But for the elect’s sake - The “elect” here doubtless means “Christians.” See 1Pe_1:2; Rom_1:7; Eph_1:4; 1Th_1:4. The word “elect” means “to choose.” It is given to Christians because they are “chosen to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth,” 1Pe_1:2. It is probable that in Jerusalem and the adjacent parts of Judea there were many who were true followers of Christ. On their account - to preserve them alive, and to make them the instruments of spreading the gospel Jesus said that those days should not be lengthened out so as to produce their destruction.

It is related by Josephus (Jewish Wars, b. 1 chapter 12, section 1) that Titus at first resolved to reduce the city by famine. He therefore built a wall around it to keep any provisions from being carried in, and any of the people from going out. The Jews, however, drew up their army near the walls, engaged in battle, and the Romans pursued them, provoked by their attempts, and broke into the city. The affairs of Rome, also, at that time demanded the presence of Titus there; and, contrary to his original intention he pressed the siege and took the city by storm, thus “shortening” the time that would have been occupied in reducing it by famine. This was for the benefit of the “elect.” So the designs of wicked people, intended by them for the destruction of the people of God, are intended by God for the good of his chosen people. See the notes at Isa_10:7.
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So you believe in Preterism? That all End Times events happened in the past? That doesn't make any sense. But you are free to believe as you wish, brother. I read Revelation and I do not get the impression that those things happened already. History would never forget something that major.
 
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LOL. Just because Calvin read the Bible and agreed with a point that all sorts of other Protestants believed as well as he, it doesn't make those beliefs "Calvinism."

That is your perspective or view I do not share. I believe Calvin (using the views of St. Augustine) helped to spread the man made belief of OSAS that we have today, and he did not get it from reading the Bible or by asking God for the understanding on His Word.
 
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That is your perspective or view I do not share. I believe Calvin (using the views of St. Augustine) helped to spread the man made belief of OSAS that we have today, and he did not get it from reading the Bible or by asking God for the understanding on His Word.
For purposes of having a discussion, we sometime need facts, reasoning, and evidence, not just "what I believe is...."
 
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I was talking Scripture. I mentioned 2 Peter 3:9.
Also, Calvinism relates to OSAS because that is where it originates from.
So the two are tied together. For many who defend OSAS will say that a believer will be in a way forced to live a certain way and they will not justify sin (even though they have told me at other times that they can sin and still be saved). Calvinism is all about God forcing people to be a certain way or to be saved. OSAS is saying the same thing. Many will say if a believer is living an immoral lifestyle, they were never born again to begin with. Meaning, God forces a believer to be a certain way after they are saved by Grace. But this is not what Scripture teaches. We are told in Scripture to continue in God's grace. We are told to continue in the faith. We are told to keep ourselves in the love of God.
no you are presenting a caricature. like I said earlier if you want to leave calvin out I'm in otherwise I have no interest.
 
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