Jesus Christ Shed His Blood for Judas

FreeGrace2 said:

I said:
"Since I'm neither a Calvinist nor an Arminian, I don't have that problem or quirk.

As I said, my questions are straightforward. If you think my questions are "loaded", then please explain how so and how to "unload" them."

Even Spurgeon believed that man has a free will. If man doesn't, then ALL his actions and thoughts have to emanate from God.

So, Calvinism would have to place ALL blame for sin and evil on God.

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James says you cannot control your tongue. This means your will is not free.

FreeGrace2 said:

Where do you get the idea that His death justifies anyone? Certainly not the Bible.

Romans 5:1 - Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, wehave peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

This is what Calvinists fail to understand.

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“Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.” Romans 5:9 (NCPB)

Bond-servant of Christ said:

you jest! I can say what I like, and when I like! Unless people are on some drugs or dumb, then they probably cannot!

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But you cannot control your tongue in saying what you like. Lots of it is sin.

Dave L said:

Salvation was only of the Jews. Saying it is for the whole world means gentiles are now included according to the promise made to Abraham. It does not mean every single person any more than it did in the Old Covenant. Most Jews were hardcore sinners and perished.

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There were non Jews saved before Christ. It was always available to all.

For example, Psalm 2:12, "Blessed are all who take refuge in him." This "refuge" was faith or trust in the Lord. This was not an ambiguous idea of God, but faith in the one God who created the heavens, the earth, and everything in them.

With the coming of Jesus, the content of faith became more specific, growing from belief in God and His ways to acceptance of the Son whom He sent as Savior. The promised Messiah had arrived. Jesus was the fulfillment of the Old Testament sacrificial system, the one Savior who permanently restores relationship with God.

With the completion of the New Testament writings, we now have far more information than previous generations who lived with little knowledge of Jesus. As Hebrews 1:1-2 says, "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world." We have all that is necessary to believe in Jesus Christ by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Prior to Jesus, salvation was based on faith in God and trust in His plan. Ultimately, it was still based on the death and resurrection of Christ, though God's followers did not know exactly how that would look.

The ancient Gentiles were not judged by the same rule as the Jews due to the fact that the Hebrews had a written revelation from God (the law of Moses, and eventually the completed body of the Old Testament Scriptures), while the other nations did not; the Gentiles, therefore, were evaluated by a more general standard than the Jews. Paul wrote:

[F]or when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves; in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ (Romans 2:14-16).

While the Gentiles did not have a written law (e.g., the law of Moses) certainly on occasions they had communications from Jehovah (cf. Genesis 3:9; 4:6; 6:13ff; 12:1ff)
“According to Romans 2:14-15 conscience is innate and universal. It is not the product of environment, training, habit, race impression, or education, though it is influenced by all these factors” (Rehwinkel 1999, 136). The ancient Gentiles, therefore, were not judged by the same rule as the Jews, but they were not void of law and culpability.
The Lord sent Jonah to the Gentiles of Nineveh (Jonah 3:1). God’s mercy and compassion extend even to the heathen nations on condition of their repentance”

Four Gentile women were woven into the genealogical fabric of the Messiah—Tamar, Rahab, Ruth, and Bathsheba—in both legal and biological senses (Matthew 1:5-6; Luke 3:31-32). Non Jews were saved before Christ.

Dave L said:

But most are lost. Why? If he paid for their sins?

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Because they refuse him. The Bible puts the fault on man, you put it on God.

renniks said:

Because they refuse him. The Bible puts the fault on man, you put it on God.

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They perish because of original sin. Adam's sin.

renniks said:

There were non Jews saved before Christ. It was always available to all.

For example, Psalm 2:12, "Blessed are all who take refuge in him." This "refuge" was faith or trust in the Lord. This was not an ambiguous idea of God, but faith in the one God who created the heavens, the earth, and everything in them.

With the coming of Jesus, the content of faith became more specific, growing from belief in God and His ways to acceptance of the Son whom He sent as Savior. The promised Messiah had arrived. Jesus was the fulfillment of the Old Testament sacrificial system, the one Savior who permanently restores relationship with God.

With the completion of the New Testament writings, we now have far more information than previous generations who lived with little knowledge of Jesus. As Hebrews 1:1-2 says, "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world." We have all that is necessary to believe in Jesus Christ by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Prior to Jesus, salvation was based on faith in God and trust in His plan. Ultimately, it was still based on the death and resurrection of Christ, though God's followers did not know exactly how that would look.

The ancient Gentiles were not judged by the same rule as the Jews due to the fact that the Hebrews had a written revelation from God (the law of Moses, and eventually the completed body of the Old Testament Scriptures), while the other nations did not; the Gentiles, therefore, were evaluated by a more general standard than the Jews. Paul wrote:

[F]or when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves; in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ (Romans 2:14-16).

While the Gentiles did not have a written law (e.g., the law of Moses) certainly on occasions they had communications from Jehovah (cf. Genesis 3:9; 4:6; 6:13ff; 12:1ff)
“According to Romans 2:14-15 conscience is innate and universal. It is not the product of environment, training, habit, race impression, or education, though it is influenced by all these factors” (Rehwinkel 1999, 136). The ancient Gentiles, therefore, were not judged by the same rule as the Jews, but they were not void of law and culpability.
The Lord sent Jonah to the Gentiles of Nineveh (Jonah 3:1). God’s mercy and compassion extend even to the heathen nations on condition of their repentance”

Four Gentile women were woven into the genealogical fabric of the Messiah—Tamar, Rahab, Ruth, and Bathsheba—in both legal and biological senses (Matthew 1:5-6; Luke 3:31-32). Non Jews were saved before Christ.

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“Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.” John 4:22 (NCPB)

Dave L said:

They perish because of original sin. Adam's sin.

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So I'm damned with no chance of redemption because of Adam? We are only held accountable for our own sin.

Dave L said:

“Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.” John 4:22 (NCPB)

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How ironic! You use a verse from a passage where a samaritan woman is saved before the crucifixion. Thanks for proving my point.
21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Didn't you read my explanation to you about this already?

We are saved and justified on the basis of faith in what He did. Can you understand this?

Rom 5:1, 10:9 both say so. In plain words. So Calvinists can't miss it.

Dave L said:

= you save yourself and the rest of his blood is wasted.

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Well, then. Apparently you DO reject Scripture, that says we are justified by faith.

Faith in Christ is trust in HIM saving ME. Got it? Well, probably not. But it's not that difficult to understand.

His physical blood had NO part in salvation. It was His spiritual death (separation from His Father) that paid the debt. Do you understand that?

Dave L said:

But most are lost. Why?

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Why? Because they didn't trust Him.

If he paid for their sins?

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They didn't believe in what He did for them.

Dave L said:

So you think you save yourself by doing these things?

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That is just ridiculous. Trusting in Christ isn't a work. It is non-meritorious. Look it up if you don't understand what that means.

Or do you do them because God saved you?

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Are you referring to this?

"Rom 10:10 - For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Couldn't be any more clear. Belief comes from the heart. And I've already proven from Eph 2;5 and 8 that faith precedes both salvation and regeneration."

There's no "them" in Rom 10:10. There is just belief. The Bible says clearly that we are saved and justified on the basis of belief in what Christ did for us.

FreeGrace2 said:

Why? Because they didn't trust Him.


They didn't believe in what He did for them.

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So they, not God, are their own savior? Only God gives saving faith.

FreeGrace2 said:

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Didn't you read my explanation to you about this already?

We are saved and justified on the basis of faith in what He did. Can you understand this?

Rom 5:1, 10:9 both say so. In plain words. So Calvinists can't miss it.

Well, then. Apparently you DO reject Scripture, that says we are justified by faith.

Faith in Christ is trust in HIM saving ME. Got it? Well, probably not. But it's not that difficult to understand.

His physical blood had NO part in salvation. It was His spiritual death (separation from His Father) that paid the debt. Do you understand that?

Click to expand...

If you have faith, it's because God gave it to you. You cannot save yourself by forcing the flesh to believe.

I said:
"Even Spurgeon believed that man has a free will. If man doesn't, then ALL his actions and thoughts have to emanate from God.

So, Calvinism would have to place ALL blame for sin and evil on God."

Dave L said:

James says you cannot control your tongue. This means your will is not free.

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No, it means men choose not to. But I wonder if you know the difference.

renniks said:

How ironic! You use a verse from a passage where a samaritan woman is saved before the crucifixion. Thanks for proving my point.
21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

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How was Abel saved and all the faithful in Hebrews 11?