Where does this stuff come from?

renniks said:

"Freedom or whatever." is pretty darned important to some of us who still care whether our every move is controlled by the powers that be. You wouldn't understand.

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No, that's true. I don't understand. I'm fortunate in that my every move is not controlled by the powers that be.

SimplyMe said:

To be fair, OSHA would probably distinguish between and airborne and non-airborne virus, since a respirator is of little use against a non-airborne virus.

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To be fair, OSHA does distinguish between 'respirators' APR/PAPR, and paper masks. A paper mask is what you wear when you are performing general duties, maybe construction, raking leaves, or mowing your lawn. Respirators are required at level c: paint booths, welding, organic compounds, pesticides, airborne pathogens.... at a minimum, as is being presented, covid-19 is a BSL-2.




And to be fair.... many would have an issue with only calling COVID-19 'moderately dangerous; with BSL-2 already being a level C response.






How can people even suggest a virus is level D and all that is needed is a cloth mask?

Level D:




Level D PPE is sufficient protection against a virus that reportedly killed millions? That laughs in the face of all that is known or even taught about PPE. So a high vis vest, a hard hat and a mask is all that is needed? Then it isn't something I really need to be all too worried about. Unregulated cloth masks? So I can just throw my shirt over my nose and I'm safe? It's ridiculous.

renniks said:

"Freedom or whatever." is pretty darned important to some of us who still care whether our every move is controlled by the powers that be. You wouldn't understand.

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The "freedom or whatever" is sarcastic because there is no freedom in infecting yourself and potentially other people for bloody stupid reasons.

FireDragon76 said:

A cloth mask is better than nothing, and that's the whole point. It's an easy-to-procure minimum that anybody could have on hand.

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No it's not... what threat response is polyester good for? Fire? Would it be better than nothing to misuse PPE's in a fire, or high heat situation?

Kentonio said:

No, it's just extremely obvious that basically the only topic you ever want to talk about is racism from the supposed perspective of how terribly everyone treats white people..

As for whether racism can be unconscious, take 5 minutes and do the Race section of the Harvard Implicit Interpretation test.

Take a Demo Test

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Eesh...

Psychology’s Favorite Tool for Measuring Racism Isn’t Up to the Job

"A pile of scholarly work, some of it published in top psychology journals and most of it ignored by the media, suggests that the IAT falls far short of the quality-control standards normally expected of psychological instruments. The IAT, this research suggests, is a noisy, unreliable measure that correlates far too weakly with any real-world outcomes to be used to predict individuals’ behavior — even the test’s creators have now admitted as such. The history of the test suggests it was released to the public and excitedly publicized long before it had been fully validated in the rigorous, careful way normally demanded by the field of psychology. In fact, there’s a case to be made that Harvard shouldn’t be administering the test in its current form, in light of its shortcomings and its potential to mislead people about their own biases. There’s also a case to be made that the IAT went viral not for solid scientific reasons, but simply because it tells us such a simple, pat story about how racism works and can be fixed: that deep down, we’re all a little — or a lot — racist, and that if we measure and study this individual-level racism enough, progress toward equality will ensue."

There's no reliable way to measure "implicit bias". There's no significant connection between behavior and implicit bias.

Probably most importantly, being aware of implicit bias doesn't change anything.

Fun fact- You can easily "beat" the test by deliberately slowing down your responses to white people. Taa-daaaa....you're the least racist person ever!

FireDragon76 said:

So because it's not up to OSHA standards, it's therefore completely useless? That seems illogical and extreme as far as conclusions go.

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We are discussing what is being termed as a viral pandemic that is so deadly business and ways of life need to be shutdown to mitigate death tolls.

But you can wear any form of face covering you want and you'll be good.....

You can tie a sock around your head... Wear a scarf....

Next time, pick up that mask package and read what its disclaimer claims it protects you from.

FireDragon76 said:

For someone that routinely bashes the utility of government regulations, I somehow doubt this is being argued in good faith.

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Can you drink saltwater after having been filtered in a fresh water system? It will be clear... better than nothing, right?

Some regulations actually have purpose. I am against overreach.

Ana the Ist said:

You understand that I was paraphrasing you, right? I wasn't trying to match what you said word for word.

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The way I see it, is that you continually miss the point. When you paraphrase things on this topic, you consistently get your understanding of the other side, or the other person wrong.
It seems to me that you are trying very hard to make things consistent with your current understanding rather than to listen and to change your current understanding.
Even when I try to clarify, I don't feel you listen, I feel you stick with your current position and you do this by twisting or paraphrasing what I am saying rather than trying to understand why what I am saying is subtly different to how you think I should be saying it.

Ana the Ist said:

I said...

"You said white people are calling the police on black people because they've got racist beliefs..."

You said...

"They need to stop assuming a black in a white neighborhood is a criminal up to no good."

You understand that is a racist belief, right?

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No, this isn't outright racism.

The person calling the police might not hate blacks and might not think whites are superior to blacks.

It's also similar to a person who sees white protesters carrying guns and thinking oh that's wonderful they are exercising their second amendment rights, but then seeing a group of blacks with guns and getting scared and locking their door and hiding under their bed.

I'd say it's more about niches. You could replace the blacks with people dressed as punks. With leathers and coloured mowhawks. They look different, they are part of a group that the observer sees as foreign. They have seen movies where Punk rockers are unruly and smash things up. Scary stuff. So, while they don't hate people, the don't hate people that like punk music, they are scared though. So they puck up the phone and call the police.

Ana the Ist said:

So what part of how I worded it is wrong? You don't think this is a big social problem?

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Systemic racism is a problem, even though many of the people playing a part in it aren't necessarily racist. That is the point I am making and I feel you are twisting it to mean that I am saying all whites are racist. Which is not what I am saying at all.

Ana the Ist said:

I get that you and others think that....and if we were talking about racist policies or laws I'd agree. It seems like that's not what people mean though....

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I don't feel that you understand our point of view.
When you claim that the left think USA is a white supremacist society, you take a comment one of two people have said, you twist that comment to mean something different and you apply that false position to the whole "left" as if it is a mainstream position.
When I say stuff to you here, you twist it to mean something different from what I am saying.

Ana the Ist said:

That's exactly the definition of interpersonal racism. It's a person treating someone differently because of their race.

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Not really, a racist treats other races as inferior, not just different.

Ana the Ist said:

How is that different from a racist person? You aren't even talking about a system anywhere in that example....you're literally talking about a racist person with no mention of a system whatsoever.

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The system is society and the shear numbers of times this stuff happens.
A white person walks through a black neighborhood, do they eventually get questioned by the police because one of the neighborhood people have called the police?
The black person gets the police pulling over next to them and questioning them. Why? They haven't done anything suspicious other than to be black.

Ana the Ist said:

Of course they're racist! You just said that the whole reason they got scared is because person is black. If you think a person is a criminal because of their race....that's a racist belief. You're literally making a moral judgement about someone based on nothing but their race.

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If you asked that white person, or investigated their lives, you might find that they have some black friends, that they don't think whites are better than blacks, they they don't have any hate of blacks. But they were just scared because in their white neighborhood they don't usually see a black person and they weren't aware of their neighbors having any black friends.

Ana the Ist said:

Regardless though, let's pretend that two people are exactly the same in every respect, and their only difference is race, and like you said....the judge gave the black person a longer sentence.

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Statistics give a high indication that this is happening in statistically significant numbers.
It's not just about judges but also jurors and also the police who also have a say in whether they will press for charges or let someone go with a warning. It's systemic!

Ana the Ist said:

Literally the only racist thing in this scenario is the judge. Again, that's interpersonal racism....it's got nothing to do with any system.

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It has everything to do with the system and it doesn't mean that the police and justice system is full of raging racists.

Ana the Ist said:

You aren't wrong to say that this scenario discriminates against black people....but it also discriminates against every white person who isn't the friend of the guy hiring.

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True, but it is a very common hiring practice to hire people through your contacts rather than to objectively look at CVs. Statistically it means the profile of those in hiring positions means that it is more likely for the majority to continue getting the good jobs and less likely for the minorities. This is systemic racism. But doesn't need full blown racists for this to happen.

Ana the Ist said:

It's not discrimination against people based on race...if this guy's social circle was mostly black people, then he'd be hiring a black person. It's discrimination against people based on friendship/social circles.

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Yes, but statistically it shows up as systemic racism, that the whites appear to have a position of privilege and that the blacks are discriminated against. That is the 10,000 mile view of it. It is a problem and needs to be addressed.
But it doesn't mean that all whites are racist, and it doesn't mean that USA is a white supremacist nation.
To acknowledge this issues, you don't have to be constantly defending that you, as a white person, aren't racist. You don't need to defend that you haven't lived a privileged life.

I think when people hear about the terms "systemic racism" or "white privilege" or "black lives matter" they take it to the extreme and and get all riled up and want to fight back against these terms. Rather than to try and understand what these terms actually mean, and why there is a problem in society, and what can be done about it.

Ana the Ist said:

I don't know why you're having such a hard time coming up with examples.

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It was easy for me to come up with these examples.
The problem is, that it is hard to get you to listen to them. You are negating them, avoiding them, and instead telling me that I haven't provided suitable examples.

I am just one person. I would recommend you talk to others in an exploratory way to find out what these terms mean to them and what good examples would be for them.
Don't get on the defensive, just listen and try to understand. Then when you have talked to quite a few people you can see which positions are the outliers and which are the common positions.
But don't try to construct your own view of what the other side is thinking. That will stop you from learning and understanding.

renniks said:

"Freedom or whatever." is pretty darned important to some of us who still care whether our every move is controlled by the powers that be. You wouldn't understand.

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You're right, I don't understand any American who would make such a groundless assertion. Here you are posting on an internet forum, where any number of entities can track your every move...and yet, you seemingly have an issue with public health measures taken to mitigate risk from a virus. Do tell...

FireDragon76 said:

It's not overreach to ask people to take minimum steps to attempt to control the spread of a dangerous virus.

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And again... this is presented as a worldwide pandemic killing millions and possibly millions more. The minimum is level C PPE that is not available to the public in the quantities needed. The face masks are a placebo. All they are is a security blanket to make people feel like they are in control and have sort of safety. Paper and cloth face masks are not stopping anything. Anyone who routinely utilizes them is still at risk of contacting and/or spreading the virus.

Quite literally, the face masks just emotionally make people feel better about a situation they have no control over.

The overreach is in forcing others to take wear a mask even tho they recognize it as a placebo. In order to placate the sensibilities of others that believe in the placebo/token/talisman/favor.... as in: "if I wear this 'item' I am protected"

LostMarbels said:

And again... this is presented as a worldwide pandemic killing millions and possibly millions more. The minimum is level C PPE that is not available to the public in the quantities needed. The face masks are a placebo. All they are is a security blanket to make people feel like they are in control and have sort of safety. Paper and cloth face masks are not stopping anything. Anyone who routinely utilizes them is still at risk of contacting and/or spreading the virus.

Quite literally, the face masks just emotionally make people feel better about a situation they have no control over.

The overreach is in forcing others to take wear a mask even tho they recognize all it is, is a placebo. In order to placate the sensibilities of others that believe in the placebo/token/talisman/favor.... as in: "if I wear this 'item' I am protected"

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Yeah, I know how you feel. When I go out in public I have to wear pants just because of other peoples' feelings and if I don't I'll be arrested. It's an unreasonable infringement of my liberty.

LostMarbels said:

And again... this is presented as a worldwide pandemic killing millions and possibly millions more. The minimum is level C PPE that is not available to the public in the quantities needed. The face masks are a placebo. All they are is a security blanket to make people feel like they are in control and have sort of safety. Paper and cloth face masks are not stopping anything. Anyone who routinely utilizes them is still at risk of contacting and/or spreading the virus.

Quite literally, the face masks just emotionally make people feel better about a situation they have no control over.

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Are you able to provide a link to the source of this information? Or is this simply your opinion?

Are you more qualified than Dr Faucci?

Speedwell said:

Yeah, I know how you feel. When I go out in public I have to wear pants just because of other peoples' feelings and if I don't I'll be arrested. It's an unreasonable infringement of my liberty.

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That's awesome... maybe you should check out Florida. They have entire nudist communities that even have their own clothing optional Publix and other name brand stores.

But other than that... I see no reason you comment was made concerning wearing masks.

Triumvirate said:

Again, as I have said already now, there is no should here.

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Then you've completely flip-flopped from your original position that racial representation matters.

You're not actually saying much original or of substance, all you have is defensiveness and a refusal to consider that any issues are actually facing nonwhite people beyond laughably obvious expressions of racism.

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I've asked you how this isn't an issue of individual racism....and the example you gave me was a person saying something racist.

Literally an individual being racist .

And I really am done with you now.

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Ohhhh nooooooo!

At first I thought you might just be thunderously idiotic on this.

But all you have to say about the mere possibility of a statement being directed at white people changing into actions that harm white people - even though what you describe isn't happening - is 'Sure.'

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If you think that someone using a word magically leads to action....that's fine. In some cases it does...in some cases it doesn't .

And yet when people bring up slurs and how they harm nonwhite people - how they may be preludes to attacks, how they have histories of being attached to bigotry that can't be easily denied - you're not so quick to take it seriously. It's all offence, as if this is some intellectual exercise and nonwhites are just arbitrarily deciding they don't like certain words. And we mustn't talk about how these words could be a prelude to hateful action, as they have been so often in the past.

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I see where your mistake is....

You think that people did hateful racial crimes like lynching in the past because of words. I think they did those things because of ideas.

You see...all sorts of ideas about race were created, and taught, but they all amounted to saying that black people were in many ways "less than" whites...in the past.

It's that idea...the idea that somehow skin color can hold value...that's the problem. Skin color, race, they don't have any value.

Now, I understand that's difficult for you....because you clearly do place value on race. Your entire argument to this point has been that people should value some races in certain ways...and not value others.

That's the start of every racist idea, every racist theory. That's how you can stop seeing people as just individuals...and start seeing them as just members of a race. From there , it's easy to start assigning collective guilt....collective blame....collective immorality, laziness, criminality, etc.

That's how you end up hanging people in trees for crimes they didn't commit.

I would suggest that you take a hard look at yourself, and what you believe, and try to be honest about why you want to assign value to race.

stevil said:

re you able to provide a link to the source of this information?

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I have many times. You begin to tire of the ever elusive 'fetch' for 'proof'. (that will never under any circumstances, be accepted)

There is actually a search function on this forum if you wish to see what I have posted. Top right corner.

stevil said:

No, this isn't outright racism.

The person calling the police might not hate blacks and might not think whites are superior to blacks.

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Ok....I think I see the problem. Old timey racist theories did usually involve an element of superiority. The modern usage of racism doesn't.

Simple racial prejudice and discrimination qualify as racism.

For example, if a guy who owns a store says he doesn't hire black people because they're all lazy....he may not hate black people, he may not feel superior to black people, but he is making a negative judgement about them based on race.

That's racism. One of the many commonly accepted racist beliefs in the medical profession is that black people have a higher pain tolerance. That's not a belief that other races are superior....it's not born out of hatred....it's simply a prejudiced judgement based on race.

The word for that is racism.

Do we agree on that?

LostMarbels said:

I have many times. You begin to tire of the ever elusive 'fetch' for 'proof'. (that will never under any circumstances, be accepted)

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Your claim is that cloth masks are not good enough for a deadly highly contagious airbourne virus.

And you are taking this a step further and saying (without evidence, without support of anyone qualified) that because it is deemed not good enough then it would not be effective at all and so it is pointless to wear it.

What needs to happen is to reduce the R0 which is the rate of spread.
With no measures the R0 of covid-19 is 3. If you reduce it to below 1 then the disease will reduce and disappear over time. Even if cloth masks aren't good enough to guarantee the wearer total protection from the virus, it will work to reduce the R0 and hence will be an effective strategy in your country if enough people wear it.