Jesus Christ Shed His Blood for Judas

Dave L · Oct 26, 2020

renniks said:
1 John 2:2
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

Try reading the same as a first-century Jew. You will then get the picture

Dave L · Oct 26, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
The fallacy here is thinking that Christ's death saves. If that were true, there wouldn't be any need for all the verses about salvation by faith.

They would, instead, say you are saved by His death. But there are no verses that say that.

And, again, you just have no answers, because you are unprepared to give answers.

You should listen to Peter. 1 Peter 3:15

And there are many verses that say that Jesus died for everyone.

2 Cor 5:14,15
1 Tim 2:3-6
Titus 2:11
1 John 2:2

And none of the verses say "all kinds of". They say "all". As in everyone.

“‘Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.” Acts 20:28 (NCPB)

Is the world the church? Of course not.

Dave L · Oct 26, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
Then explain Heb 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

But you aren't prepared to give an answer, are you?

This verse plainly says indicates that those who seek Him are rewarded.

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Not a work of the flesh.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 26, 2020

Dave L said:
“‘Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.” Acts 20:28 (NCPB)

Is the world the church? Of course not.

Yes, Jesus Christ died for the church. Because He died for everyone, the church is included.

You simply deny truth. That's the problem. 2 Cor 5:14,15 are very clear about who Christ died for.

And the word "many" means "the masses". It's a comparison word. It doesn't mean "less than everyone", as you want it to be.

Christ died for the masses.

Dave L · Oct 26, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
How an I agree with your opinions, since you haven't yet shown me any Scripture that supports your opinions?

How can an unbeliever be "saved", since the Bible is very clear that salvation is THROUGH FAITH, as Eph 2:8 clearlly says?

But again, you won't answer any of my questions, because you haven't taken Peter's advice and you aren't prepared to give an answer. 1 Pet 3:15

If I can honestly answer a question I will. But none of yours appear answerable.

Dave L · Oct 26, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
Yes, Jesus Christ died for the church. Because He died for everyone, the church is included.

You simply deny truth. That's the problem. 2 Cor 5:14,15 are very clear about who Christ died for.

And the word "many" means "the masses". It's a comparison word. It doesn't mean "less than everyone", as you want it to be.

Christ died for the masses.

You are adding to God's word.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 26, 2020

Dave L said:
Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Not a work of the flesh.

Nope. I never said faith was a "work" of any kind. So you're beating that dead horse again.

Believing the gospel is "taking God at His word". That's not a work.

John 4:50 -
“Go,” Jesus replied, “your son will live.”
The man took Jesus at his word and departed.

That's what faith is. Taking Jesus "at His word". Simple as that. It doesn't require regeneration to do that.

Another way to express "taking Jesus at His word" is to say "trusting in what Jesus said". Means the same thing.

Eph 2:5 and 8 prove that regeneration follows faith.

v.2 - even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved--

The blue words explain the red words. iow, regeneration (red words) are equated with being saved (blue words). Can't have 1 without the other.

Are you prepared to demonstrate from Scripture that there are regenerated people who aren't saved, or saved people who aren't regenerated? No, you cannot.

Now, v.8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

v.8 repeats the phrase "by grace you have been saved", but now Paul adds "through faith". This proves that salvation requires faith. Can't be saved apart from faith.

And since regeneration and salvation occur at the same time, it's clear that both require faith FIRST.

Dave L · Oct 26, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
Nope. I never said faith was a "work" of any kind. So you're beating that dead horse again.

Believing the gospel is "taking God at His word". That's not a work.

John 4:50 -
“Go,” Jesus replied, “your son will live.”
The man took Jesus at his word and departed.

That's what faith is. Taking Jesus "at His word". Simple as that. It doesn't require regeneration to do that.

Another way to express "taking Jesus at His word" is to say "trusting in what Jesus said". Means the same thing.

Eph 2:5 and 8 prove that regeneration follows faith.

v.2 - even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved--

The blue words explain the red words. iow, regeneration (red words) are equated with being saved (blue words). Can't have 1 without the other.

Are you prepared to demonstrate from Scripture that there are regenerated people who aren't saved, or saved people who aren't regenerated? No, you cannot.

Now, v.8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

v.8 repeats the phrase "by grace you have been saved", but now Paul adds "through faith". This proves that salvation requires faith. Can't be saved apart from faith.

And since regeneration and salvation occur at the same time, it's clear that both require faith FIRST.

The flesh cannot believe in the true Christ. Only an idol it thinks is Christ.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 26, 2020

Dave L said:
If I can honestly answer a question I will

That isn't honest. All of my questions are straightforward. As anyone who follows this thread can and has seen.

But none of yours appear answerable.

Well, of course reformed theology cannot answer them, because the obvious answer refutes the theology.

So, reformed people simply cannot "see" the answer. But the Bible does give the answer to all of my questions. Whether you can see any of them or not.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 26, 2020

Dave L said:
The flesh cannot believe in the true Christ. Only an idol it thinks is Christ.

I'm not interested in your opinions or your theories.

I am interested in what God's Word says.

Which you are still unprepared to give an answer to my questions.

timothyu · Oct 26, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
And since regeneration and salvation occur at the same time, it's clear that both require faith FIRST.

Yes. Faith is simply coming to the conclusion God's will is perfect compared to the manipulative will of man, then repenting of those ways of man and living according to God's will. In doing so we have reconnected with God.

Dave L · Oct 26, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
I'm not interested in your opinions or your theories.

I am interested in what God's Word says.

Which you are still unprepared to give an answer to my questions.

Paul says the flesh can do only so much.

Dave L · Oct 26, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
That isn't honest. All of my questions are straightforward. As anyone who follows this thread can and has seen.

Well, of course reformed theology cannot answer them, because the obvious answer refutes the theology.

So, reformed people simply cannot "see" the answer. But the Bible does give the answer to all of my questions. Whether you can see any of them or not.

Calvinists have loaded questions. Arminians have loaded questions. So answering loaded questions amounts to nothing.

timothyu · Oct 26, 2020

Dave L said:
Paul says the flesh can do only so much.

Even a pet is capable of understanding that doing what is expected of it in being good rather than bad, is more rewarding. What sets us apart is we are capable of understanding the difference between the two wills and the reasoning why one is better than the other. The reward is a perfect system. That understanding is enough.

Justified_By_Christ_Alone · Oct 26, 2020

Dave L said:
Jesus did not die for the Pharisees in Jn 10ff. Why would he die for any who are lost? Doesn't that say his death didn't pay for any sin at all?

The bible says Jesus paid for the sins of the whole world... John 3:16 says For God so loved the world...

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." - 1 John 2:2

FreeGrace2 · Oct 26, 2020

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
I'm not interested in your opinions or your theories.

I am interested in what God's Word says.

Which you are still unprepared to give an answer to my questions.

Dave L said:
Paul says the flesh can do only so much.

How much did Paul say the flesh "can do"?

Your statements are vague and lack any evidence from Scripture. Peter told believers to be prepared to give answers. You should prepare.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 26, 2020

I said:
"All of my questions are straightforward. As anyone who follows this thread can and has seen."

Dave L said:
Calvinists have loaded questions. Arminians have loaded questions. So answering loaded questions amounts to nothing.

Since I'm neither a Calvinist nor an Arminian, I don't have that problem or quirk.

As I said, my questions are straightforward. If you think my questions are "loaded", then please explain how so and how to "unload" them.

renniks · Oct 26, 2020

Dave L said:
Try reading the same as a first-century Jew. You will then get the picture

How is that helpful?

FreeGrace2 · Oct 26, 2020

Dave L said: ↑
Try reading the same as a first-century Jew. You will then get the picture

renniks said:
How is that helpful?

It isn't. It's more of a distraction or a dodge.

Bond-servant of Christ · Oct 27, 2020

renniks said:
Thank you, very helpful and informative. Jesus died for all...

Amen!

Jesus Christ Shed His Blood for Judas

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